Transgender issues: Why blurring the line between men and women is not the problem

[Shadow Wolf]

What is happening here is a version of the no true Scotsman fallacy.

More like willful stupidity of biology and genetics.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So they were fighting for the existence of their culture and religion; not their existence. Though a major part, there are more to people than just their culture and religion.

They're Jews. Tha WAS their existence, their identity, and it was forcibly taken from them and erased.
And, literal existence of their life as well as such forced convetions were often under the conditions of convert or die.

 

[Kfox]

They're Jews. Tha WAS their existence, their identity,

It was a PART of their existence and identity. They were still sisters, brothers, uncles, aunts, capitalists, socialists etc; they were still people, and people are more than just a bunch of rules and customs.

and it was forcibly taken from them and erased.
And, literal existence of their life as well as such forced convetions were often under the conditions of convert or die.

This did not happen in the USA. Are you saying Firenze Jewish friends are not living in the USA?

 

[anna.]

How is this different than intersex?

People who are intersex are generally born with ambiguous or incomplete or underdeveloped genitalia.

 

[fantome profane]

What kinda laws do you imagine can prevent a biological male from believing he is a female?

Laws that prevent medical treatment, laws the prevent cross-dressing, laws that prevent people from acknowledging their existence.

 

[Kfox]

Laws that prevent medical treatment, laws the prevent cross-dressing, laws that prevent people from acknowledging their existence.

Are you saying people can't be transgender unless they are allowed to cross dress, and receive gender affirming care? Or am I misunderstanding you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This did not happen in the USA. Are you saying Firenze Jewish friends are not living in the USA?

Actually in the USA Uncle Sam did send a boat of Jews running for their lives back into the same dangers that killed them. And groups like the Klan did target them. And anti-semitism is alive and well today in America.
And, of course, the erasures, brutal killings, criminalizations, child abductions, and forced conversations DID happen in America (and Canada) against the Natives.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

)

Are you saying people can't be transgender unless they are allowed to cross dress, and receive gender affirming care? Or am I misunderstanding you.

It would prohibit them from acknowledging and expressing that part of themselves, and forced to be known to the world as cisgendered.
So, in practice as far as society goes, no, people wouldn't be. It would be like when Ahmadinejad said they don't have homosexuals in Iran. That's because Iran kills them and they can't be out in the public sphere as homosexual.

 

[fantome profane]

Are you saying people can't be transgender unless they are allowed to cross dress, and receive gender affirming care? Or am I misunderstanding you.

I think you are understanding me.

 

[Kfox]

Actually in the USA Uncle Sam did send a boat of Jews running for their lives back into the same dangers that killed them.

No we're talking about what is going on TODAY. Jewish people living 100 years ago are not the people who are his friends.

It would prohibit them from acknowledging and expressing that part of themselves, and forced to be known to the world as cisgendered.

No it would not. Not allowed to wear the clothes of your choosing and not given surgery does not prevent you from believing you are a female

 

[Kfox]

I think you are understanding me.

Then I will have to respectfully disagree. To not be allowed to wear the clothing of your choosing, and not given sugery does not prevent a biological male from believing he is a female. One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[icehorse]

You're the one who's been painting "TA"s as some group you haven't really defined, have blamed for problems facing trans people, have condemned for speaking up and speaking out, and yet haven't gave us anything more concete than the fantasy RW boogeyman called the "gay agenda."

you are just FULL of excuses for dodging questions

 

[Ella S.]

My reasons for starting this thread are complex, and have little to do with me having problems with transgender people myself (I don't). If faced with the question of if I had to do it over again, if I would do it again (ie, start this thread)... my answer is that I probably wouldn't have the energy, despite wishing the best for all conversation participants.

Honestly, on a personal note, I grow weary of debate in general.

I have long recognized that debate is not an effective means to get through to those you are debating. It is often more about the audience.

If people are genuinely interested in understanding a particular topic, then it is on them to do their due diligence to research every angle on that subject to the best of their abilities. I did that with religion and it's why I can recite the Qliphothic tree from memory and cite the lineages of various gurus and monastic traditions. It's how I know what Eckenkar and Discordianism and the Uratia Book Movement are, the differences between Sethianism and Catharism, etc. Debate did not really help me that much in forming my opinion.

I wonder how big of an audience a thread like this actually has. I imagine that most of the people who care so much about this topic are not going to have their minds changed significantly by a thread like this. Some of them might enter a debate thread like this one with a desire to open themselves up to what the other side would say to specific ideas, but that is only the beginning of learning. They have to follow up on their realization that they do not really fully understand the points the other side is making by researching them on their own from the sources that actually espouse them, rather than reading biased accounts of them from people who oppose them.

And that's something that people can (and should) choose to do without a debate. When someone forms a serious opinion on a topic, it should ideally be one that is well-researched. I get that there is some amount of the Dunning-Kruger effect going on here, but that's solved through epistemic humility and questioning our own beliefs.

Quite frankly, it is not my job to educate people about developments in social psychology, English studies, or historical anthropology, all of which are tied into our understanding of gender. I have no degree in economics or political science, nor am I a journalist or an influencer, so it is not my job to communicate these ideas to people who have no idea what they are talking about. If people genuinely desire an understanding of the topic, they have better avenues than a debate thread to learn.

Everyone who has actually taken the time to study the topic knows why the transphobic nonsense in this thread is massively uneducated, ignorant, and hateful. I can only point out that they are not aligned with the science or academia in general so many times. It is not just this thread or this topic, either, but a wide degree of debates and conversations platformed by this forum.

People here are still discussing whether evolution is really our best current model, as if it were still the 19th century. We have the internet. Universities and encyclopedias have free online resources. Anyone can simply go and read up on the topic or watch an archived lecture on YouTube from actual professors, their students, or their colleges. It shouldn't be a debate anymore. It's only a debate because people are refusing to learn.

I understand that some people need to be given trustworthy resources in order for them to be able to begin to educate themselves. Not everyone can afford a college education. I understand that some people do not realize, immediately, how complex a topic actually is before forming a grossly misinformed opinion on it. Those people do need a polite and gentle hand to reach out to them to help them orient themselves on the literature for a given topic so that they can have informed opinions rather than regurgitate some politicized rhetoric.

To be honest, whether evolution is true or not (for example) is not a subject that will impact most people's lives, so there's some reason to do something more productive with your time than become scientifically literate enough on biology to follow the developments regarding it. That also means that there are more productive things to do with your time than argue against scientific consensus on a field of study that you have no formal education or expertise in, though, and they seem to not care about that.

Many of us will meet transgender people in our lives. Treating transgender people properly is important and relevant to us. All it takes is the simple gesture of not misgendering them, though, which does not require a degree to understand. It's basic courtesy and human decency. You do not need to understand all of the academic literature on the subject regarding why we do this, but if you are serious about "just asking questions" then that is the literature you should consult. Starting a transphobic flamewar on the internet where you say that medically transitioned transsexual women are "still men" and should stay out of women's spaces isn't even remotely the proper way to go about that.

At some point, I have to acknowledge that I am not a professor or science communicator or political influencer, so debating with people on these subjects is not my job. As a hobby, there are other, more productive ways to spend my time. I think it is important for the general public to be more scientifically literate and stay up to date on important topics of scientific consensus, such as evolution and gender, but it is simply not my responsibility. I do not want that responsibility, either. I just find it frustrating that people are so deeply ignorant about topics that are so simple and straightforward that they could read a single article in an encyclopedia or from a science communicator and understand it well enough, especially when that ignorance directly harms other people for no good reason.

I want to help, but I can't help because these are the same people who choose to come to this forum to complain about transgender people using the proper restrooms rather than give any serious thought or consideration as to why they advocate for using the restrooms that they do. They just let non-experts rile them up into paranoia and then refuse to admit that they might not really know what they're talking about, even when it's demonstrated to them over and over again that they're completely and utterly wrong by every rational metric.

I can't do anything about that. Nobody can. These people have to choose to be better, but they are content with being wrong since it's more emotionally satisfying to be angry than to put in the effort of actually thinking or researching. Why bother arguing with people that were never interested in listening to begin with? I'm doing my part by staying educated and helping others find the resources that I have when they're looking for them. Trying to shout over a typhoon of stupidity is a wasted effort.

Again, people should be looking towards educating themselves and understanding what actual experts are saying, questioning their own positions and challenging them by reading up on the positions of the people they disagree with in order to understand them rather than discount them. People should not be doubling-down on the first thought that pops into their head (or is whispered in their ear by a sea of hateful social media memes) and screaming it at anyone they can corner or drag into a conversation. That's on them. And it's on me to not stoop to their level anymore. If they can't take their own ideas seriously enough to put genuine effort into forming them, then they are not entitled to me taking their ideas seriously enough to refute them, especially when they aren't going to listen (or maybe can't even comprehend) the refutation, anyway.

Getting through to those people takes a special skillset that I do not have. In fact, I think even professionals who deal with these kinds of people regularly, such as therapists, social workers, doctors, and lawyers, also struggle with it. Getting the obstinate to admit the painfully obvious is not something I was trained in. My education is in logic, not people skills. Somebody else has to do get through to them, if it even can be done.

 

[icehorse]

Getting the obstinate to admit the painfully obvious is not something I was trained in. My education is in logic, not people skills. Somebody else has to do get through to them, if it even can be done.

pot, meet kettle!

(that goes for the entire post, not just the bit I copied)

About 120 posts ago I laid out several concerns. I believe they were clear. As far as I can recall, you have dodged the opportunity to answer them. When you do get around to doing that, if ever, see if you can constrain yourself to speaking only to the ideas posed, and refrain from slurring other posters or bragging about how learned you are.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

you are just FULL of excuses for dodging questions

Nope. Just pointing out you're chasing the gay agenda ghosts that conservatives amd republicans repackaged as the trans agenda.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

pot, meet kettle!

(that goes for the entire post, not just the bit I copied)

About 120 posts ago I laid out several concerns. I believe they were clear. As far as I can recall, you have dodged the opportunity to answer them. When you do get around to doing that, if ever, see if you can constrain yourself to speaking only to the ideas posed, and refrain from slurring other posters or bragging about how learned you are.

They weren't dodged.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Honestly, on a personal note, I grow weary of debate in general.

I have long recognized that debate is not an effective means to get through to those you are debating. It is often more about the audience.

If people are genuinely interested in understanding a particular topic, then it is on them to do their due diligence to research every angle on that subject to the best of their abilities. I did that with religion and it's why I can recite the Qliphothic tree from memory and cite the lineages of various gurus and monastic traditions. It's how I know what Eckenkar and Discordianism and the Uratia Book Movement are, the differences between Sethianism and Catharism, etc. Debate did not really help me that much in forming my opinion.

I wonder how big of an audience a thread like this actually has. I imagine that most of the people who care so much about this topic are not going to have their minds changed significantly by a thread like this. Some of them might enter a debate thread like this one with a desire to open themselves up to what the other side would say to specific ideas, but that is only the beginning of learning. They have to follow up on their realization that they do not really fully understand the points the other side is making by researching them on their own from the sources that actually espouse them, rather than reading biased accounts of them from people who oppose them.

And that's something that people can (and should) choose to do without a debate. When someone forms a serious opinion on a topic, it should ideally be one that is well-researched. I get that there is some amount of the Dunning-Kruger effect going on here, but that's solved through epistemic humility and questioning our own beliefs.

Quite frankly, it is not my job to educate people about developments in social psychology, English studies, or historical anthropology, all of which are tied into our understanding of gender. I have no degree in economics or political science, nor am I a journalist or an influencer, so it is not my job to communicate these ideas to people who have no idea what they are talking about. If people genuinely desire an understanding of the topic, they have better avenues than a debate thread to learn.

Everyone who has actually taken the time to study the topic knows why the transphobic nonsense in this thread is massively uneducated, ignorant, and hateful. I can only point out that they are not aligned with the science or academia in general so many times. It is not just this thread or this topic, either, but a wide degree of debates and conversations platformed by this forum.

People here are still discussing whether evolution is really our best current model, as if it were still the 19th century. We have the internet. Universities and encyclopedias have free online resources. Anyone can simply go and read up on the topic or watch an archived lecture on YouTube from actual professors, their students, or their colleges. It shouldn't be a debate anymore. It's only a debate because people are refusing to learn.

I understand that some people need to be given trustworthy resources in order for them to be able to begin to educate themselves. Not everyone can afford a college education. I understand that some people do not realize, immediately, how complex a topic actually is before forming a grossly misinformed opinion on it. Those people do need a polite and gentle hand to reach out to them to help them orient themselves on the literature for a given topic so that they can have informed opinions rather than regurgitate some politicized rhetoric.

To be honest, whether evolution is true or not (for example) is not a subject that will impact most people's lives, so there's some reason to do something more productive with your time than become scientifically literate enough on biology to follow the developments regarding it. That also means that there are more productive things to do with your time than argue against scientific consensus on a field of study that you have no formal education or expertise in, though, and they seem to not care about that.

Many of us will meet transgender people in our lives. Treating transgender people properly is important and relevant to us. All it takes is the simple gesture of not misgendering them, though, which does not require a degree to understand. It's basic courtesy and human decency. You do not need to understand all of the academic literature on the subject regarding why we do this, but if you are serious about "just asking questions" then that is the literature you should consult. Starting a transphobic flamewar on the internet where you say that medically transitioned transsexual women are "still men" and should stay out of women's spaces isn't even remotely the proper way to go about that.

At some point, I have to acknowledge that I am not a professor or science communicator or political influencer, so debating with people on these subjects is not my job. As a hobby, there are other, more productive ways to spend my time. I think it is important for the general public to be more scientifically literate and stay up to date on important topics of scientific consensus, such as evolution and gender, but it is simply not my responsibility. I do not want that responsibility, either. I just find it frustrating that people are so deeply ignorant about topics that are so simple and straightforward that they could read a single article in an encyclopedia or from a science communicator and understand it well enough, especially when that ignorance directly harms other people for no good reason.

I want to help, but I can't help because these are the same people who choose to come to this forum to complain about transgender people using the proper restrooms rather than give any serious thought or consideration as to why they advocate for using the restrooms that they do. They just let non-experts rile them up into paranoia and then refuse to admit that they might not really know what they're talking about, even when it's demonstrated to them over and over again that they're completely and utterly wrong by every rational metric.

I can't do anything about that. Nobody can. These people have to choose to be better, but they are content with being wrong since it's more emotionally satisfying to be angry than to put in the effort of actually thinking or researching. Why bother arguing with people that were never interested in listening to begin with? I'm doing my part by staying educated and helping others find the resources that I have when they're looking for them. Trying to shout over a typhoon of stupidity is a wasted effort.

Again, people should be looking towards educating themselves and understanding what actual experts are saying, questioning their own positions and challenging them by reading up on the positions of the people they disagree with in order to understand them rather than discount them. People should not be doubling-down on the first thought that pops into their head (or is whispered in their ear by a sea of hateful social media memes) and screaming it at anyone they can corner or drag into a conversation. That's on them. And it's on me to not stoop to their level anymore. If they can't take their own ideas seriously enough to put genuine effort into forming them, then they are not entitled to me taking their ideas seriously enough to refute them, especially when they aren't going to listen (or maybe can't even comprehend) the refutation, anyway.

Getting through to those people takes a special skillset that I do not have. In fact, I think even professionals who deal with these kinds of people regularly, such as therapists, social workers, doctors, and lawyers, also struggle with it. Getting the obstinate to admit the painfully obvious is not something I was trained in. My education is in logic, not people skills. Somebody else has to do get through to them, if it even can be done.

I understand that 'getting through to people' is not easy, and I appreciate your efforts. I also want to remind you that sometimes people who disagree on the public forum may still respect each other privately (at least some of them).

I don't have the power to change the total quality of debate on the forum, but I'm doing what I think is helpful: starting threads that encourage more thoughtful and formal debates. I'm happy to see that it seems to have some positive effects. In the past few weeks, there are many new members joining, and many of them are showing interest in debate and philosophy. I feel that I've seen a slight rise in quality in the Debate boards, too. And not all because of my threads. People are coming here and starting to take an interest in civil debate and philosophy, and starting their own threads. I feel we are starting to set new standards I haven't even seen in my 4 years here, in terms of debate quality. But all this is just in my opinion. And I realize it can be hard to look past a thread like this, where comments are prone to run a little "hot", and see the bigger picture.

 

[icehorse]

Nope. Just pointing out you're chasing the gay agenda ghosts that conservatives amd republicans repackaged as the trans agenda.

ah, that's a new dodge, keep 'em coming!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

ah, that's a new dodge, keep 'em coming!

What dodge? You haven't evwn acknowledged you vision of what a trans activist is a caricature.

 

[Ella S.]

pot, meet kettle!

(that goes for the entire post, not just the bit I copied)

About 120 posts ago I laid out several concerns. I believe they were clear. As far as I can recall, you have dodged the opportunity to answer them. When you do get around to doing that, if ever, see if you can constrain yourself to speaking only to the ideas posed, and refrain from slurring other posters or bragging about how learned you are.

Thank you for trying to drag me into a conversation to scream at me rather than trying to comprehend my post, immediately after I made it.

I'm putting the post in my profile to explain why I am no longer participating in debate threads and I could not have asked for a better demonstration.