Transgenderism

[Sgt. Pepper]

Maybe they took up the suggestion from @Sand Dancer and just stopped.

That's a fair point.

 

[Jose Fly]

Once I made the decision to leave it was easy for me as well, but I know for many that isn't the case. Some even have lingering fears amd doubts years after the fact.

Yep, I have one family member who's gone back and forth several times.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I will ask again: if my “brain is female”, am I capable of choosing (agency) to identify as male?

Welll, yeah, but it's not likely to end well.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I’m skeptical but agnostic overall on the neurological transgenderism claims. Would the claimed neurological markers correspond with anywhere near perfect accuracy with the genders that solidified adults identify as? I have some doubts about that.

Do I think there is a high level of social influence and imposition on gender? I am much less skeptical about that.

Because transgender identity has a subjective element and is socially influenced, even if there is neurological influence as well, trans activists are not going to be able to shut down the social influence / imposition that they don’t like. Why? Because many in society are going to have a hard time seeing how increasing gender confusion is beneficial to society.

Right wing media snarl words: transgenderism, trans activists, gender confusion.

I don't how much nuance you've read into regarding sex, gender and neurobiology, because the idea of sexed and gendered brains is both under and overstated in a myriad of ways. But no psychologist worth their salt thinks transgender identity is independent of biology. Nor that sociology doesn't impact biology and visaversa.

It is also true that gender, sex and neurobiology is more nuanced than society wants it to be. Whether they think it's beneficial or not. Gay people, too, were gay regardless of society's inclinations on whether it was harmful or not, the only evidenced harm caused was in trying to force gays to not be gay under the false pretense that they could choose to not be gay.

There isn't any clear dividing line between sociology and biology. Society effects biology and visa versa.

There is also nothing that we can experience that isn't subjective, from color to pain to sex and gender. But subjectivity =/= unreal, impertinant, or choice-based.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's awkward to explain to some Christians that de-conversion was a painful and difficult process that I never wanted to undergo, but also that my life is so much better having left the religion behind. I am happier as an ex-Christian, but I didn't choose to forsake God to enjoy sin or anything. It's just that, in hindsight, the whole religion centers around an abusive father figure working through the intermediaries of totalitarian institutions. I simply didn't realize this until after I left the religion.

I always thought it was hyperbole when anti-theists described Christianity that way and that the criticism only really applied to, like, the Westboro Baptist Church. My faith wasn't based on hate like theirs. My faith was based on love and reason. Or at least, so I believed, because that's what my local totalitarian authorities told me I had to believe according to the abusive father figure who was always reading my mind to make sure I never thought otherwise.

I underestimated how affected I was by this idea of some supreme authority constantly reading my mind and judging my every thought. It's really a miserable way to live; you're essentially always under someone's boot that you can't even reliably commune with.

That also sums up my past. I had nightmares of going to Hell even before I started to doubt and question. It's worst than growing up with an ultra strict parent because you can learn to hide things from the parent. You can't even hide your thoughts from Jehovah, and he's far easier to anger than please. And indeed the Bible tells us how he's backed up and supported his claim of being angry.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yep, I have one family member who's gone back and forth several times.

I don't doubt it. I wouldn't be surprised to discover it can have a maladaptive effect on brain formation and structures.
I've even had a few of these lingering "cravings," these thoughts of maybe it was a mistake and with new knowledge and insights it wouldn't be what it was again. But it doesn't go further than that, and reminds me of the occasional craving for nicotine I still sometimes get.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Right wing media snarl words: transgenderism, trans activists, gender confusion.

I mention it because I wonder how much nuance you've read into regarding sex, gender and neurobiology at all. Because the idea of sexed and gendered brains is both under and overstated in a myriad of ways. But no psychologist worth their salt thinks transgender identity is independent of biology *and* sociology.

It is also true that gender, sex and neurobiology is more nuanced than society wants it to be. Whether they think it's beneficial or not. Gay people, too, were gay regardless of society's inclinations on whether it was harmful or not, the only evidenced harm was in trying to force gays to not be gay.

There isn't any clear dividing line between sociology and biology. Siciety effects biology and visa versa. There is also nothing that we can experience that isn't subjective, from color to pain to sex and gender. But subjectivity =/= unreal, impertinant, or choice-based.

I agree that it’s nuanced. My position is nuanced, which is why I posted in this thread - to add nuance to an over simplified discussion.

I refuse to cede normal words just because people you dislike use them. I am not especially political. I’m very religious in a solitary way (not in a community), and I see identity and identity crisis as incredibly important.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Welll, yeah, but it's not likely to end well.

What markers are being used to distinguish a male brain from a female brain? Do you know? I’m curious.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Massive study reveals few differences between men's and women's brains

How different are men's and women's brains? The question has been explored for decades, but a new study coalesces this wide-ranging research into a single mega-synthesis. And the answer is: hardly at all.

www.sciencedaily.com

“Massive study reveals few differences between men's and women's brains.”

This is from two years ago. Is there something more recent that disproves this?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I agree that it’s nuanced. My position is nuanced, which is why I posted in this thread - to add nuance to an over simplified discussion.

I refuse to cede normal words just because people you dislike use them. I am not especially political. I’m very religious in a solitary way (not in a community), and I see identity and identity crisis as incredibly important.

These 'normal words' are buzzwords you see attached to a particular narrative, not in clinical academics. You might not share that narrative but buzzwords do act like breadcrumbs to a source.

Just like I can tell someone using the term 'postmodern neomarxist' has either spent some time on "breadtube" or with Jordan Peterson.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Massive study reveals few differences between men's and women's brains

How different are men's and women's brains? The question has been explored for decades, but a new study coalesces this wide-ranging research into a single mega-synthesis. And the answer is: hardly at all.

www.sciencedaily.com

“Massive study reveals few differences between men's and women's brains.”

This is from two years ago. Is there something more recent that disproves this?

Few =/= zero. That's why I said overestimated and underestimated. The actual difference between brains of adult male and female humans is very small. Though not as small as in children, which may be because of gendered parenting, epigenetics or a myriad of other reasons.

However, the few things that have been shown to be different also shows that difference in transgender individuals matching with their gender identity rather than their assigned sex. Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Is it likely more complicated than this? Hell yeah. You can't look at an autistic brain and determine with any consistency which parts were altered to make them autistic, or where in the brain autism is. Why wouldn't something as complicated as sex and gender be at least as complicated?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Few =/= zero. That's why I said overestimated and underestimated. The actual difference between brains of adult male and female humans is very small. Though not as small as in children, which may be because of gendered parenting, epigenetics or a myriad of other reasons.

However, the few things that have been shown to be different also shows that difference in transgender individuals matching with their gender identity rather than their assigned sex. Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Is it likely more complicated than this? Hell yeah. You can't look at an autistic brain and determine with any consistency which parts were altered to make them autistic, or where in the brain autism is. Why wouldn't something as complicated as sex and gender be at least as complicated?

I’m curious how this maps onto detransitioners. This is also from 2018. I’d have to believe the group that did the study I posted in 2021 was aware of this study.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Few =/= zero. That's why I said overestimated and underestimated. The actual difference between brains of adult male and female humans is very small. Though not as small as in children, which may be because of gendered parenting, epigenetics or a myriad of other reasons.

However, the few things that have been shown to be different also shows that difference in transgender individuals matching with their gender identity rather than their assigned sex. Transgender brains are more like their desired gender from an early age

Is it likely more complicated than this? Hell yeah. You can't look at an autistic brain and determine with any consistency which parts were altered to make them autistic, or where in the brain autism is. Why wouldn't something as complicated as sex and gender be at least as complicated?

Genetically, we're barely different from chimps. But those small things make a big difference. Seems about the same thing here. And, indeed, we also know with chemistry a minute difference can have profound effects on something.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Not necessarily. Some hide it very well even early on. Myself, and I doubt I'm the only one, despite acting very masculine I'm pretty sure my mom thought I'm gay.

I guess what I meant is that it generally starts early. I didn't think about kids hiding it. I would think they would hide it if the first time the child spoke up they got punished or something. I hope you were not punished.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I’m curious how this maps onto detransitioners. This is also from 2018. I’d have to believe the group that did the study I posted in 2021 was aware of this study.

The two studies aren't in conflict. Again, few =/= zero.

I don't know how it would map onto detransitioners because they're not a monolithic group. Not all detransitioners don't identify as trans, they just stopped or reversed transition for health, safety or financial reasons. There is a higher ratio of people who regret having knee surgery than regret transitioning. So, they're not a well studied group.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

The two studies aren't in conflict. Again, few =/= zero.

I don't know how it would map onto detransitioners because they're not a monolithic group. Not all detransitioners don't identify as trans, they just stopped or reversed transition for health, safety or financial reasons. There is a higher ratio of people who regret having knee surgery than regret transitioning. So, they're not a well studied group.

Right, we are still in the early days. The dialogue must continue and not just by the bad actors.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Genetically, we're barely different from chimps. But those small things make a big difference. Seems about the same thing here. And, indeed, we also know with chemistry a minute difference can have profound effects on something.

Yep. But also things we thought were inherently genetic differences turned out not to be in primatology and neurology. I'm very critical of pink brain/blue brain because it's so oversimplified and inconsistent and doesn't account for environmental exposure, and its effects on endocrinology and epigenetics.

Hardliners positions that require a clear distinction between nature and nurture are often BS or at best grossly oversimplified.

Which is often why I'm quick to remind that nurture doesn't mean choice, doesn't mean biology independent.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I guess what I meant is that it generally starts early. I didn't think about kids hiding it. I would think they would hide it if the first time the child spoke up they got punished or something. I hope you were not punished.

Not so much punished as having strict gender norms enforced (no girl toys at all allowed), but also social pressures and misogyny that view women as weak and lesser than men.

 

[Stonetree]

I was raised Christian........Christ would not condone prejudice against trans people....If your bible says nonheterosexuals are evil then your bible speaks heresy....If you believe in God; God created all of us....as we are. It's for everyone to live their life finding out who they are....It's called their identity.....I'm male, with several flaws. If you believe people who are different from you means they are products of the devil, you are wrong.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yep. But also things we thought were inherently genetic differences turned out not to be in primatology and neurology. I'm very critical of pink brain/blue brain because it's so oversimplified and inconsistent and doesn't account for environmental exposure, and its effects on endocrinology and epigenetics.

Hardliners positions that require a clear distinction between nature and nurture are often BS or at best grossly oversimplified.

Which is often why I'm quick to remind that nurture doesn't mean choice, doesn't mean biology independent.

It's like height. On average men are taller. But there's a fair chance this won't be the case if you randomly select a male and female and compare them. There's even a fair chance they'll about the same height.