Trayvon Martin shooting - murder or justified?

[Trey of Diamonds]

What garbage! Seriously, is Shelby Steele the latest house negro that the right is going to put up to bat?

House Negro? :sarcastic Have you ever considered that your reactions to things might be just a tad bit excessive? Just wondering.

 

[work in progress]

House Negro? :sarcastic Have you ever considered that your reactions to things might be just a tad bit excessive? Just wondering.

Here's why -- Shelby Steele's editorial calls the shooting a "tragedy," okay, but nowhere in the piece does he call for an arrest or even an investigation of the incident and how police handled it! It is a diversionary tactic that would sound like he was talking about a suicide or some accidental death from a drug overdose or drinking and driving etc.. And that's what's infuriating about his tactic. He is parroting a line of thought found all over right wing media and the right blogosphere that the Trayvon Martin shooting incident should just go away without any further investigation, and especially with no further discussion of laws written to permit vigilante justice, or the ease of access to firearms.....as far as anyone knows, since George Zimmerman hasn't surfaced since this became a national story, he still has that handgun that he used to shoot Trayvon Martin, and legally, could "stand his ground" again.

Shelby Steele's nuanced apologetic here (intended for a white audience, not black) is that two tragedies occurred: The first is obvious: A teenager—unarmed and committing no crime—was shot dead.

Okay I guess everyone agrees with that, so what's the second tragedy? Way down near the end, where it won't be noticed by the average reader who only wades in for a few paragraphs:

Before the 1960s the black American identity (though no one ever used the word) was based on our common humanity, on the idea that race was always an artificial and exploitive division between people. After the '60s—in a society guilty for its long abuse of us—we took our historical victimization as the central theme of our group identity. We could not have made a worse mistake.
​

I'd like to know how many other blacks who had come of age before 1960, can recall a glorious time when blacks were unaware of their race, and were just trying to advance their "common humanity" during the Civil Rights marches! Just from my childhood recollections, I can recall the transition that occurred...about after the time James Brown became a star, and black identity became focused on looking African and stop trying to look white...by straightening hair and lightening skin color etc. I also recall that there were recognized divisions between blacks that followed color lines, as darker blacks felt that lighter skinned blacks were the only ones allowed to break the color bar in some instances, and were able to prosper and run the businesses in the black communities.

So, who is Shelby Steele kidding? Likely an uninformed white audience of under 50's, who have never bothered to read anything about that history. The real story is more likely that the radicals in the black communities were the ones who generated a culture of "common humanity" among Americans who had some African heritage, regardless of their darkness or percentage of African ancestry. But, what Shelby Steele wants, and more important, what the people who have funded his career want, is arguments that portray anyone who draws attention to race issues in America today, to be castigated as the racist aggressors who are standing in the way of a colorblind society where race doesn't matter.

 

[Kathryn]

Why would Shelby Steele have to pander to anyone? Why can't he have his own informed opinion, and his color be left out of it?

 

[YmirGF]

I withhold judgement.

Just as disturbing is how many are operating on what little is actually known about the case. Depending on which bias media outlet you wish to subscribe to, you will get bundles of information that is yet to go through due process.

I find this aspect of the case to be quite disturbing. I am surprised that Al Gore has not complained due to all the CO2 being released into the atmosphere contributing to um.... climate change.

 

[Kathryn]

And what's up with calling Zimmerman a white hispanic? We don't call our president a white African American.

 

[Revoltingest]

And what's up with calling Zimmerman a white hispanic? We don't call our president a white African American.

Hispanics have higher victimhood status.
Tis easier to demonize Zimmerman if he's one of the oppressors.
It's confusing only because Hispanics have recently been proffered as different from "white", even when they're white.
Now, circumstances & politics require redefinition.
You don't harbor that foolish belief that the case should be considered based solely upon the facts of the matter, do you?

Yet even more complicated it becomes....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...gin-ancestry/2012/04/04/gIQAsR0jvS_story.html

The Pew Hispanic Center finds that a majority of Hispanics prefer to identify themselves according to their
families’ countries of origin, rather than by the government’s suggested terms “Hispanic” or “Latino.”

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

And what's up with calling Zimmerman a white hispanic? We don't call our president a white African American.

No but there are those who call him a High Yellow. Its the same thing but for what ever reason the media seems to think White Hispanic is acceptable. I wonder when Mulattos and Red Bones will start making head lines.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

It's confusing only because Hispanics have recently been proffered as different from "white", even when they're white.

Hispanics white? That's a new one on me. Hispanics are generally of Spanish and Native American heritage, neither of which counts as white to the WASPs. Even those who are able to claim 100% Spanish decent don't count because they aren't Anglo-Saxon and they are Catholic. Even the government, who considers white to be everyone not African-American or Hispanic, still separates Hispanics from the grouping because statistically they have a higher percentage of Native American genes than European. Many people seem to think that all Europeans are considered white, but for those who consider the term to be important that isn't even close to true. Only White Anglo-Saxon Protestants are allowed in the secret club.

 

[Revoltingest]

Here is an interesting piece in the news today....
Crowd Beats, Strips & Robs Tourist On St. Patrick’s Day; Incident Caught On Camera « CBS Baltimore
It's interesting that the article doesn't mention gender or race, but having once lived in Baltimore, I had to look.
If an apparently all white crowed had beaten, robbed, & stripped a black fella, this would've been front page news.
Jesse & Al would've been calling for marches & civil disobedience. But instead, we have the media avoiding racial
overtones entirely when a black crowd does this to a hapless white guy.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hispanics white? That's a new one on me. Hispanics are generally of Spanish and Native American heritage, neither of which counts as white to the WASPs.

Call'm what you will, I know Hispanics who are as lightly complected as am I.
They were also born in the US, & grew up in the same state.
One gal even has blue eyes & blond hair (not rare in Mexico).
I say that "white" is more of a race related term. "Hispanic" is more cultural.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Here is an interesting piece in the news today....
Crowd Beats, Strips & Robs Tourist On St. Patrick’s Day; Incident Caught On Camera « CBS Baltimore
But instead, we have the media avoiding racial
overtones entirely when a black crowd does this to a hapless white guy.

Makes me wonder too. Especially because it is pretty clear that this attack is racially motivated.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Call'm what you will, I know Hispanics who are as lightly complected as am I.
They were also born in the US, & grew up in the same state.
One gal even has blue eyes & blond hair (not rare in Mexico).
I say that "white" is more of a race related term. "Hispanic" is more cultural.

You are using the term white in relation to skin tone, which many people mistakenly do. From the racists point of view it isn't skin tone alone that is important but also your religion and racial heritage. Italian Catholics are as white as white can be but they are not considered white by the KKK or the Aryan Nation because they are Catholics and not Anglo-Saxon. French Catholics are the same. You can ask the Italians and Cajuns in Louisiana if they have been treated more like whites or African Americans and you'll find many who can identify more with African Americans than with WASPs. At least from my generation anyway. One of my best friends growing up was an Italian and he often said he was just a white n****. That was how he saw himself because that is how the WASPs treated him. Things are a bit better today but I still see almost as much racism against Cajuns and Italians as I see against African Americans in Louisiana.

 

[work in progress]

Why would Shelby Steele have to pander to anyone? Why can't he have his own informed opinion, and his color be left out of it?

Because there's money to be made by being the black conservative, and acting against the collective interests of blacks and other minority groups. What a coincidence that his opinions on race, President Obama, and Israel War Policy, just happen to be in line with the standard propaganda objectives of the Hoover Institute, where he has been a member for many years. Looking at his bio, I don't see anything outstanding that would have distinguished him from the mostly unknown crowd of black liberal arts professors, aside from saying things that a conservative think tank with lots of money, wants to get out there.

Maybe the weakness of his editorial owes a lot to the fact that there is no sensible case to make for trying to stop an inquiry into the Sanford Police Dept. and whether criminal charges should be filed against George Zimmerman. It doesn't make any sense that the local police and the Republican mass media are fighting so hard to protect George Zimmerman from being charged, except that they fear how a trial will shine a light on the Stand Your Ground and similar vigilante laws that have been enacted elsewhere and led to questionable shooting incidents just going away without any charges being filed.

The only reason that makes sense is that the right wing doesn't want any attention on how these laws have been proposed and enacted by local governments all across the United States through the sub-surface strategies of the gun manufacturers, and the lobbying influence they buy through controlling the NRA and having a seat at the table at the ALEC conferences.

There have been all sorts of lame arguments advanced for ignoring this case in Florida, and someone like Shelby Steele deserves derision for taking the money and playing his small role in Team Rightwing every time an issue involving race pops up.

 

[work in progress]

You are using the term white in relation to skin tone, which many people mistakenly do. From the racists point of view it isn't skin tone alone that is important but also your religion and racial heritage. Italian Catholics are as white as white can be but they are not considered white by the KKK or the Aryan Nation because they are Catholics and not Anglo-Saxon. French Catholics are the same. You can ask the Italians and Cajuns in Louisiana if they have been treated more like whites or African Americans and you'll find many who can identify more with African Americans than with WASPs. At least from my generation anyway. One of my best friends growing up was an Italian and he often said he was just a white n****. That was how he saw himself because that is how the WASPs treated him. Things are a bit better today but I still see almost as much racism against Cajuns and Italians as I see against African Americans in Louisiana.

Look! It's about how much an immigrant looks like the locals, and acts like everyone else. I could say the same thing about how Italians were treated where I grew up, when in my childhood, the first generation of Italian immigrants that were getting up in years, spoke little if any English, and took labourer jobs where it didn't much matter, since they were mostly pick and shovel jobs. They lived in a segregated little Italy neighbourhood, and didn't mix with the rest of the community. By the 2nd and 3rd generations, as some of their children became educated and established professionals, and more immigration loosened the parameters for what qualified as "white," the Italians started losing their language and connection to the old country.

And, what also happens during this process of a minority group going from disparaged outsiders to cornerstones of the community, is that they take on the thinking and attitudes that prevail in the community. So, even when I was young, Italians were a Liberal block vote, and didn't start drifting away from Liberal Party politics until less than 40 years ago. Same thing happened in the U.S., where those same Italian and Eastern European immigrants became the "Reagan Democrats" of the 80's.

So, when we are talking about someone like George Zimmerman, who is only half Latino on his mother's side and has a former judge for a father, and lives in a white community, not some Spanish-speaking ghetto, he is "white" enough for everyone on the right to make him one of their own lately. And though they don't consider Zimmerman white enough to qualify for membership in their club, the Nazis see his community as their people:
Armed Neo-Nazis Now Patrolling Sanford, Say They Are "Prepared" For Post-Trayvon Martin Violence

 

[Kathryn]

No but there are those who call him a High Yellow. Its the same thing but for what ever reason the media seems to think White Hispanic is acceptable. I wonder when Mulattos and Red Bones will start making head lines.

Quadroon...octaroon...I have a few of them running around my house sometimes...

 

[Kathryn]

Because there's money to be made by being the black conservative, and acting against the collective interests of blacks and other minority groups. What a coincidence that his opinions on race, President Obama, and Israel War Policy, just happen to be in line with the standard propaganda objectives of the Hoover Institute, where he has been a member for many years. Looking at his bio, I don't see anything outstanding that would have distinguished him from the mostly unknown crowd of black liberal arts professors, aside from saying things that a conservative think tank with lots of money, wants to get out there.

Maybe the weakness of his editorial owes a lot to the fact that there is no sensible case to make for trying to stop an inquiry into the Sanford Police Dept. and whether criminal charges should be filed against George Zimmerman. It doesn't make any sense that the local police and the Republican mass media are fighting so hard to protect George Zimmerman from being charged, except that they fear how a trial will shine a light on the Stand Your Ground and similar vigilante laws that have been enacted elsewhere and led to questionable shooting incidents just going away without any charges being filed.

The only reason that makes sense is that the right wing doesn't want any attention on how these laws have been proposed and enacted by local governments all across the United States through the sub-surface strategies of the gun manufacturers, and the lobbying influence they buy through controlling the NRA and having a seat at the table at the ALEC conferences.

There have been all sorts of lame arguments advanced for ignoring this case in Florida, and someone like Shelby Steele deserves derision for taking the money and playing his small role in Team Rightwing every time an issue involving race pops up.

I think it's INCREDIBLY racist to assume that someone has to be a Democrat or a liberal based on the color of their skin. My gosh, it's as if because they are black (or even PART black - gasp!), they suddenly lose the ability to form their own opinions.

Maybe Steele IS a conservative. Ever consider that novel idea? Maybe he doesn't feel like saying, "Yassir, Massah" to the liberal powers that be.

 

[Kathryn]

Look! It's about how much an immigrant looks like the locals, and acts like everyone else. I could say the same thing about how Italians were treated where I grew up, when in my childhood, the first generation of Italian immigrants that were getting up in years, spoke little if any English, and took labourer jobs where it didn't much matter, since they were mostly pick and shovel jobs. They lived in a segregated little Italy neighbourhood, and didn't mix with the rest of the community. By the 2nd and 3rd generations, as some of their children became educated and established professionals, and more immigration loosened the parameters for what qualified as "white," the Italians started losing their language and connection to the old country.

And, what also happens during this process of a minority group going from disparaged outsiders to cornerstones of the community, is that they take on the thinking and attitudes that prevail in the community. So, even when I was young, Italians were a Liberal block vote, and didn't start drifting away from Liberal Party politics until less than 40 years ago. Same thing happened in the U.S., where those same Italian and Eastern European immigrants became the "Reagan Democrats" of the 80's.

So, when we are talking about someone like George Zimmerman, who is only half Latino on his mother's side and has a former judge for a father, and lives in a white community, not some Spanish-speaking ghetto, he is "white" enough for everyone on the right to make him one of their own lately. And though they don't consider Zimmerman white enough to qualify for membership in their club, the Nazis see his community as their people:
Armed Neo-Nazis Now Patrolling Sanford, Say They Are "Prepared" For Post-Trayvon Martin Violence

OMG there are some FULL ON Hispanics living in my neighborhood...they're EVERYWHERE these days...

 

[gnomon]

House negro?

I just cannot get past that. It's almost like ... a godwin of the thread or something.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

So, when we are talking about someone like George Zimmerman, who is only half Latino on his mother's side and has a former judge for a father, and lives in a white community, not some Spanish-speaking ghetto, he is "white" enough for everyone on the right to make him one of their own lately. And though they don't consider Zimmerman white enough to qualify for membership in their club, the Nazis see his community as their people:
Armed Neo-Nazis Now Patrolling Sanford, Say They Are "Prepared" For Post-Trayvon Martin Violence

White enough? Where do you come up with all these sayings? Also, did you even bother to read the article you used as a source?

Schoep was also quick to clarify that he isn't taking sides in Trayvon Martin's controversial shooting. "That's for the courts to decide," he says. Besides, Schoep says, Zimmerman's not even white.

"I think there is some confusion going on," Schoep says. "A lot of people think that this guy who shot Trayvon was white... but he's half Hispanic or Cuban or something. He certainly doesn't look white to me."

I guess he wasn't really white enough after all.

As for your rant against my experiences in South Louisiana I hardly see where your experiences in the North are evidence of anything. European immigration to the urban northeast is vastly different from European immigration to the rural south. I can't speak to how the Irish and Italians are getting along in New England but the English, Italians and French in Louisiana are not assimilated by any means.

 

[Revoltingest]

You are using the term white in relation to skin tone, which many people mistakenly do. From the racists point of view it isn't skin tone alone that is important but also your religion and racial heritage. Italian Catholics are as white as white can be but they are not considered white by the KKK or the Aryan Nation because they are Catholics and not Anglo-Saxon. French Catholics are the same. You can ask the Italians and Cajuns in Louisiana if they have been treated more like whites or African Americans and you'll find many who can identify more with African Americans than with WASPs. At least from my generation anyway. One of my best friends growing up was an Italian and he often said he was just a white n****. That was how he saw himself because that is how the WASPs treated him. Things are a bit better today but I still see almost as much racism against Cajuns and Italians as I see against African Americans in Louisiana.

Complicated your way is.
I'll stick to my way of seeing things.