Trayvon Martin shooting - murder or justified?

[work in progress]

Maybe your memory needs to be refreshed by seeing his picture again.

At least go with the current photo, instead of that one:

his guy isn't even close to looking like or being a white boy. I can absolutely imagine a guy with this appearance experiencing racial profiling. I heard his own father decribed him as Hispanic

His name is Zimmerman, and his first name isn't Hector! He comes from money, and has a former judge for a dad. I'm guessing that any profiling wouldn't last very long...especially after they found out who is father is. That explained that mystery of why he was released after assaulting a police officer in 2005.

 

[work in progress]

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I'll give you this much, it sounds like his community was an afluent one and mainly composed of whites. If he was from the barrio the case might not be as racially charged as it . Add in the fact that his dad is white and was a judge and you get the media firestorm we see now. Nevertheless, I do think things would be worse if Zimmerman looked like this:

 

[work in progress]

I'll give you this much, it sounds like his community was an afluent one and mainly composed of whites. If he was from the barrio the case might not be as racially charged as it . Add in the fact that his dad is white and was a judge and you get the media firestorm we see now. Nevertheless, I do think things would be worse if Zimmerman looked like this:

Maybe it depends on what sort of "white" neighborhood you live in! I grew up in a mostly Italian neighborhood, and I knew a lot of gino's who looked more Mexican than George Zimmerman.

 

[Copernicus]

So now some more facts are trickling out:

1. A video of Zimmerman getting out of the police car on the night of the killing shows no blood or bruises on him. His clothing did not appear ruffled, and he had no sign of having been in a fight.
2. The chief prosecutor himself showed up late at night, which is highly unusual for this type of case, and ordered Zimmerman released.
3. The investigating detective did not find Zimmerman's story credible and wanted to charge him.

Zimmerman's story is steadily coming apart. There is a lot of hue and cry about not trying this case in the press. Ideally, it should have been tried in a court of law with Zimmerman having a presumption of innocence. However, it looks like this case would never have been investigated at all, were it not for the press.

The prosecutor apparently felt that the "Stand Your Ground" law only applied to Zimmerman and not Martin. They did not interview Martin's girlfriend, who was speaking with him on the phone when the attack took place. Her report was that he felt intimidated by Zimmerman. If so, would not the "Stand Your Ground" law have entitled Martin to attack Zimmerman? What a stupid law.

 

[JohnG]

If so, would not the "Stand Your Ground" law have entitled Martin to attack Zimmerman? What a stupid law.

The stand your ground law has been misused in this case. The stand your ground law doesn't say that you can attack if you feel threatened. It says that you can meet force with force, or rather "reasonable belief that the deceased intended to take your life, or do you great bodily harm". Martin didn't have a gun. If Martin isn't the one who started the fight, then stand your ground has no bearing on Zimmerman's defense, regardless of what the attorney general thought. If you start the fight, stand your ground applies to the other guy. Actually, if Martin had a gun and Zimmerman didn't, in this scenario stand your ground still applies to Martin. The AG should have made the arrest and let the courts decide.

If Zimmerman attacked Martin, and Martin fought back, it could be reasonably argued that he was within his rights not to stop beating on Zimmerman until he felt that the threat was neutralized. So as I said, stand your ground would have applied to him, but not Zimmerman.

However, if Zimmerman just asked what Martin was doing there, then attacking him isn't meeting force with force, as Zimmerman didn't use any force. It isn't reasonable to assume that someone asking you a question will lead to them killing you or causing you great bodily injury. In that case stand your ground applies to Zimmerman and not Martin.

The stand your ground law isn't bad as long as idiot prosecutors don't try to interpret the law for themselves. If someone punches me in Virginia, I can do little more than punch them back. If I punch them two or three times it is assault. If I punch them once, then we are in a boxing match that I might very well eventually lose. I would much rather have the legal ability to do what I feel is necessary to end the fight that someone else started. However, stand your ground law or not, if I disable someone in a fight, I fully expect to be arrested and have to be proven guilty (not to have to prove my innocence, as the burden of proof is on the prosecution). Stand your ground law or not, Zimmerman should have been arrested.

Zimmerman's case certainly appears to have fallen apart from the video, low-resolution though it may be. But so does the testimony of EVERY witness. As I said earlier, the witnesses before the shot say that Zimmerman was on the ground getting beaten. That clearly isn't the case as he would have Trayvon's blood on his clothes, even if he had cleaned up the blood on his own head. The witnesses after the gunshot say that Zimmerman was straddling the back of Martin. Martin was shot in the front, which means that the bulk of the blood would be at the exit wound, the back. Zimmerman would still have blood on him if he straddled the back of Martin after shooting him.

It appears as though he shot Martin from a distance and kept his distance afterwards, but that contradicts all of the testimony from all of the witnesses on both sides. Unless he got away from Martin and then shot him from a distance, which would contradict the witnesses on Martin's side. But a reasonable person would just draw the gun and tell Martin to back off. I suspect a conviction would come unless Martin didn't comply with that. Zimmerman can't really argue that case however, because the gunshot comes too soon after his cries for help. Assuming of course that it was Zimmerman crying for help. Based on the testimony of those who saw the events pre-shooting, that appears to be the case. But as I said, the video throws all of the testimonies out.

Do you see how convoluted the situation is, and how it isn't as cut and dry as people want to make it? But one thing is certain, Zimmerman should have been arrested. Of course, IANAL, but this the overwhelming opinion of the lawyers who have been asked about it say that stand your ground does not apply to Zimmerman (based upon the assumption that he pursued and attacked Martin)

 

[Kathryn]

No, he was not an Hispanic! His father was white -- hence the name Zimmerman, and his mother was Latina....I haven't noticed anything that mentions her origins if that's important, and it could be, as Latinos from the upper classes in most Latin American nations are white, while the lower classes have more of the mix of native and black ancestry. According to his friends, he could speak Spanish, but did so rarely, and most of his friends were Anglos. That name and coming from a relatively privileged background, and that would be enough to make him an honorary white man for all intents and purposes. I kind of doubt he was subjected much to racial profiling.

OMG.

Zimmerman DOES obviously have some Hispanic/Latina genetics in him - if I saw him on the street, I would consider him to be Hispanic.

As if that even matters though.

That name - and that "privileged" background - wow, he just COULDN'T be Hispanic now, could he?

I don't know about where you live, but where I live in Texas, there are LOTS of "privileged" Hispanic families - many are prosperous business owners.

Look - he is half Hispanic and half Anglo. Just like Obama is half African and half Anglo.

As if ANY of these labels should mean ANYTHING when it comes the the character of the person!!!!!!!!!!!! Holy ****!!!

 

[Revoltingest]

OMG.
Zimmerman DOES obviously have some Hispanic/Latina genetics in him - if I saw him on the street, I would consider him to be Hispanic.
As if that even matters though.
That name - and that "privileged" background - wow, he just COULDN'T be Hispanic now, could he?
I don't know about where you live, but where I live in Texas, there are LOTS of "privileged" Hispanic families - many are prosperous business owners.
Look - he is half Hispanic and half Anglo. Just like Obama is half African and half Anglo.
As if ANY of these labels should mean ANYTHING when it comes the the character of the person!!!!!!!!!!!! Holy ****!!!

Silly Kathryn....you must have some aspie in you too.
Labels are necessary to know whom to blame/hate & whom to defend.
Issues are merely fodder to feed one's screed.

 

[Kathryn]

Silly Kathryn....you must have some aspie in you too.
Labels are necessary to know whom to blame/hate & whom to defend.
Issues are merely fodder to feed one's screed.

What the heck is aspie? Hope it's not Asbergers...I am way too gregarious to have that!

 

[Revoltingest]

What the heck is aspie? Hope it's not Asbergers...I am way too gregarious to have that!

Bingo!
But yes, I'd say you're a neurotypical.

 

[Kathryn]

Bingo!
But yes, I'd say you're a neurotypical.

I don't even know what THAT is.

Apparently, I am linguistically uncool.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't even know what THAT is.
Apparently, I am linguistically uncool.

Nah, you just don't run with engineers.
If anything, you suffer from cool.

 

[Kathryn]

Nah, you just don't run with engineers.
If anything, you suffer from cool.

LOL engineers are odd creatures.

But then, they think I'm an odd creature. Always. I alarm them.

 

[Revoltingest]

When we're young, womenfolk alarm us.
When we're older, they just confuse us.

 

[work in progress]

OMG.

Zimmerman DOES obviously have some Hispanic/Latina genetics in him - if I saw him on the street, I would consider him to be Hispanic.

As if that even matters though.

That name - and that "privileged" background - wow, he just COULDN'T be Hispanic now, could he?

Considering his chameleon-like ability to get out of some serious scrapes with the Law, I think it's a safe presumption that his name and his connections have protected him from any sweeps for illegals by ICE. And just how Latino he looks in public would depend a lot on how he dresses when he's out and about. However, there are no covers for being black...and especially combined with being teenage and wearing a hoodie.

I don't know about where you live, but where I live in Texas, there are LOTS of "privileged" Hispanic families - many are prosperous business owners.

I know, I have cousins who live in Texas, and I've heard a few things about life there, both the good and the bad. For Latinos...especially with Spanish names, the more prosperous ones who don't want to be hassled too long in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico etc. carry an I.D. folder in their cars that's got everything: driver's license, ownership & insurance, employee ID or business card with SSN....everything, including the stuff that police can't legally demand without a warrant....just to speed up the process and get to where they are going.

Look - he is half Hispanic and half Anglo. Just like Obama is half African and half Anglo.

Now that you mention it, have you found any major national websites where commentary doesn't classify Obama as being black? Both supporters and enemies stick him in that category even though, as you mentioned, he is half white....and it should be mentioned that his African ancestry is not the same as 99.9999% of blacks living in the U.S. or anywhere in North America, who were forced on to slave ships in West African ports a few centuries ago. This had been a problem for him when he started dreaming of a political career....and I suspect the fact that he was looked on as an outsider when he started politics in Chicago - he chose the path of becoming a community organizer and joining an established black church in Chicago. To be honest, if Barack Obama hadn't become a politician and was walking around my neighbourhood, most guesses would be that he was Arabic or North African..not African American. It's probably your legacy of slavery and post-slavery repressive laws....like the 1/16th law that labelled anyone with the slightest look of being part African to be a Negro.

As if ANY of these labels should mean ANYTHING when it comes the the character of the person!!!!!!!!!!!! Holy ****!!!

But they do, don't they? Otherwise, of all the stories that pop up and disappear, we wouldn't have the occasional one like this that turns into a national story. The ultimate lesson from this latest race issue may be that America is still living in denial about race, and pretending to be color-blind, and never getting around to coming to terms with racial discrimination.

 

[Kathryn]

Considering his chameleon-like ability to get out of some serious scrapes with the Law, I think it's a safe presumption that his name and his connections have protected him from any sweeps for illegals by ICE.

Wow. I've lived and worked in Texas for twenty years. Ten of those years I worked in EMPLOYMENT LAW. I don't know where you get your ideas, but they're certainly not from actual life in Texas - at least not outside the border area (Texas is a huge state). I live in northeast Texas and the whole concept of ICE "sweeps" is pretty novel, in spite of the fact that our hispanic population is growing in leaps and bounds. There have been a few investigations into large local companies over the years, but that's just the law in action - and it was no dramatic "sweep" with people jumping out of back windows, etc.

I know, I have cousins who live in Texas, and I've heard a few things about life there, both the good and the bad. For Latinos...especially with Spanish names, the more prosperous ones who don't want to be hassled too long in Texas, Arizona, New Mexico etc. carry an I.D. folder in their cars that's got everything: driver's license, ownership & insurance, employee ID or business card with SSN....everything, including the stuff that police can't legally demand without a warrant....just to speed up the process and get to where they are going.

Perhaps they live in a border town - I don't know. Here in northeast Texas, this whole scenario you described sounds ridiculous. I have many Hispanic friends, coworkers, and customers and they live quite comfortably and peacefully in our community - in fact, many of them are third generation families who own businesses, are business leaders, etc. Oh,and they have Spanish surnames. My own DAUGHTER is married to a Hispanic guy and they have no problems whatsoever. I think she would probably burst out laughing at the description you just gave of Hispanic life in Texas.

Now that you mention it, have you found any major national websites where commentary doesn't classify Obama as being black? Both supporters and enemies stick him in that category even though, as you mentioned, he is half white....and it should be mentioned that his African ancestry is not the same as 99.9999% of blacks living in the U.S. or anywhere in North America, who

I agree with your synopsis of this issue here. I FREQUENTLY point out - on this forum, and in real life, that our President is HALF WHITE. I find it very offensive, as do my biracial children, that he is classified as "black" simply because he is of mixed racial heritage. Sounds like a Jim Crow mentality to me. "If you're 1/8th black, you're black, baby!"

Tell that to this granddaughter of mine, and she'd look at you like, "Pardon me, but what the hell are you on about?"

The ultimate lesson from this latest race issue may be that America is still living in denial about race, and pretending to be color-blind, and never getting around to coming to terms with racial discrimination.

Well, "never" is a pretty unnecessarily inflammatory word to use.

Fifty years ago, African Americans could not VOTE or marry outside their race in the US. I'd say we've come a very long way, and that we continue to make significant progress as each year passes. I have witnessed this move in the right direction myself over my fifty years as an American citizen.

All my kids are biracial and my grandkids multiracial. They have zero - ZERO -problems socially or culturally, or in their careers. And get this - they live in the American South and are from (gasp) the state of TEXAS.

Don't be guilty of the same thing you accuse others of - prejudice and basing your opinions of others on their demographics.

 

[work in progress]

So now some more facts are trickling out:

1. A video of Zimmerman getting out of the police car on the night of the killing shows no blood or bruises on him. His clothing did not appear ruffled, and he had no sign of having been in a fight.
2. The chief prosecutor himself showed up late at night, which is highly unusual for this type of case, and ordered Zimmerman released.
3. The investigating detective did not find Zimmerman's story credible and wanted to charge him.

Zimmerman's story is steadily coming apart. There is a lot of hue and cry about not trying this case in the press. Ideally, it should have been tried in a court of law with Zimmerman having a presumption of innocence. However, it looks like this case would never have been investigated at all, were it not for the press.

The prosecutor apparently felt that the "Stand Your Ground" law only applied to Zimmerman and not Martin. They did not interview Martin's girlfriend, who was speaking with him on the phone when the attack took place. Her report was that he felt intimidated by Zimmerman. If so, would not the "Stand Your Ground" law have entitled Martin to attack Zimmerman? What a stupid law.

Another problem I noticed with the video is that the police in the video aren't wearing gloves. This is another problem for a case that Zimmerman was injured, since standard procedure of any police force I am aware of is that if a suspect or victim is bleeding, or has external injuries, they are supposed to slip on a pair of gloves before any physical contact.

Another problem with the story is that a fight which causes injuries to one person will leave some marks or abrasions on the assailant. I'm glad someone else watches Nancy Grace so I don't have to, and it just happened that one of her interviews yesterday was with the funeral director who handled Trayvon Martin. He states that Trayvon's hands had no cuts or bruises on his hands, which would have been expected for someone involved in a fight. Judging from the video clip of the interview, it seems that although the funeral director is not a coroner, he indicates that he's handled his fair share of shooting and assault victims over the years, so he knows what to expect and what not to expect:
Trayvon Martin funeral director speaks out | HLNtv.com

 

[Kathryn]

Another problem I noticed with the video is that the police in the video aren't wearing gloves. This is another problem for a case that Zimmerman was injured, since standard procedure of any police force I am aware of is that if a suspect or victim is bleeding, or has external injuries, they are supposed to slip on a pair of gloves before any physical contact.

Another problem with the story is that a fight which causes injuries to one person will leave some marks or abrasions on the assailant. I'm glad someone else watches Nancy Grace so I don't have to, and it just happened that one of her interviews yesterday was with the funeral director who handled Trayvon Martin. He states that Trayvon's hands had no cuts or bruises on his hands, which would have been expected for someone involved in a fight. Judging from the video clip of the interview, it seems that although the funeral director is not a coroner, he indicates that he's handled his fair share of shooting and assault victims over the years, so he knows what to expect and what not to expect:
Trayvon Martin funeral director speaks out | HLNtv.com

Good information. Keep it coming.

And like you, I am grateful that other people watch Nancy Grace so I don't have to. She drives me CRAZY.

 

[JohnG]

If you look at around 1:06 in the video, there does appear to be an injury on Zimmerman's head, this link has a screengrab of it:

Police Surveillance Video | George Zimmerman | Head Injury | The Daily Caller

Although, I assume a wound that size would have some blood on the clothes, and maybe bandages. Unless it wasn't very deep and looks worse than it is. But there should be blood on the clothes from Martin regardless of if Zimmerman bled or not, according to witness reports.

Keep in mind that this appears to be hand held camera footage of a security camera monitor, not the original source, so it's not really clear what that is on his head at that point in the frame. I wish at this point they would just release the pictures from the crime scene. I know that leaked information threatens the integrity of the trial, but I think we are way past the point of the trial having any integrity at all at this point.

 

[work in progress]

Wow. I've lived and worked in Texas for twenty years. Ten of those years I worked in EMPLOYMENT LAW. I don't know where you get your ideas, but they're certainly not from actual life in Texas - at least not outside the border area (Texas is a huge state). I live in northeast Texas and the whole concept of ICE "sweeps" is pretty novel, in spite of the fact that our hispanic population is growing in leaps and bounds. There have been a few investigations into large local companies over the years, but that's just the law in action - and it was no dramatic "sweep" with people jumping out of back windows, etc.

Perhaps they live in a border town - I don't know. Here in northeast Texas, this whole scenario you described sounds ridiculous. I have many Hispanic friends, coworkers, and customers and they live quite comfortably and peacefully in our community - in fact, many of them are third generation families who own businesses, are business leaders, etc. Oh,and they have Spanish surnames. My own DAUGHTER is married to a Hispanic guy and they have no problems whatsoever. I think she would probably burst out laughing at the description you just gave of Hispanic life in Texas.

Perhaps! This is not a subject I have first-hand experience with, so I am just going on what others tell me. I would contend that some of the polling data of Latinos living in southern states doesn't fit with such a rosy scenario as you are painting here.

I agree with your synopsis of this issue here. I FREQUENTLY point out - on this forum, and in real life, that our President is HALF WHITE. I find it very offensive, as do my biracial children, that he is classified as "black" simply because he is of mixed racial heritage. Sounds like a Jim Crow mentality to me. "If you're 1/8th black, you're black, baby!"

Tell that to this granddaughter of mine, and she'd look at you like, "Pardon me, but what the hell are you on about?"

She's beautiful! What more can I say. Maybe over a long stretch of time, the gradual process of racial mixing and smudging the color barriers will do a lot to remove the stigmas about race. It should be noted that people of mixed ancestry are not going to be likely to develop those rare congenital diseases caused by recessive genes which afflict racially pure groups....the more racially pure they are, the worse the odds! That should be an argument all in itself against the "those people should stick to their own kind" manner of thinking.

I know that when my cousins have been up here ( I should add that family from Michigan describe worse situation), especially when we've been in Toronto, they are taken aback by all of the inter-racial couples they see. Not that we don't have our problems with race and ethnicity here also, but it seems that when populations are closer together, living in the same neighbourhoods, the odds of racial and ethnic mixing are greater....especially greater than places that are still very segregated by economic circumstance or deliberate policies to discourage integration.

In Southern Ontario, a lot of the blending occurred because previous governments (mostly Progressive Conservative) had a public policy of demanding low-income housing be built by suburban developers, especially throughout the 70's and 80's. So, you had to build right outside the city limits to escape the zoning requirement to build low income public housing right next to your brand new subdivision. Not many people thought this was a good idea as a matter of fact....opinion mostly ranged from vocal opposition to indifference, but somehow the policy stayed in place for decades. The net result was suburbs that could not completely escape the ghetto, for good or bad. Mostly, I would say it has been good, because people respond differently to people of other races and ethnicities when they are in close contact with them, as opposed to rarely seeing them unless they had to drive into the center of town. Kids going to public schools have to be among children of all different backgrounds, so they grow up with a somewhat different attitude on these issues than what I find from places that are extremely segregated. Not that everything is all lollipops and sunshine.....it's not going to make your day any better if you're mugged by an inter-racial gang, but overall, it's better to prevent cities from allowing economic differences and cultural desires to turn city into a stark contrast between ghettos and gated communities.

Well, "never" is a pretty unnecessarily inflammatory word to use.

Fifty years ago, African Americans could not VOTE or marry outside their race in the US. I'd say we've come a very long way, and that we continue to make significant progress as each year passes. I have witnessed this move in the right direction myself over my fifty years as an American citizen.

All my kids are biracial and my grandkids multiracial. They have zero - ZERO -problems socially or culturally, or in their careers. And get this - they live in the American South and are from (gasp) the state of TEXAS.

Don't be guilty of the same thing you accuse others of - prejudice and basing your opinions of others on their demographics.

Well, time will tell! My feeling is that growing economic stratification is the greatest threat to social harmony today, and should be prevented for everyone's benefit. It's better to work towards equality, rather than spend that money on buying guns and building castle walls around wealthier suburbs. What ever progress has been made so far....whether we're talking about the U.S., Canada, Europe, Asia, Latin America etc., that progress can come unraveled very quickly as societies become increasingly unequal.