Trayvon Martin shooting - murder or justified?

[work in progress]

Not much to that police report in regard to who was the aggressor in the situation. Zimmerman was slightly wounded. Martin was dead. Zimmerman was armed. Martin was unarmed. I don't see anything in the original police report indicating that other witnesses heard ZIMMERMAN calling for help. The first 9 1 1 call came in from Zimmerman at 7:19 pm. Within 13 minutes of that call there was a pursuit, a confrontation, Martin was shot, Martin died, police and paramedics arrived, Martin was assessed, CPR was given (usually goes on for several minutes) & Martin was officially pronounced dead. This shows that if Zimmerman had simply stayed by his truck rather than insisting on moving around trying to find and follow Martin, the police would have been there literally in about five minutes. Martin would be alive today if Zimmerman had followed simple instructions from emergency personnel.

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

I've considered this story to be more about how the police handled the situation, and the wisdom of some of these laws like "Stand Your Ground", that have been used in other cases to cover for vigilantes or worse, than about George Zimmerman.

The Police never investigated this shooting. They just took Zimmerman at his word and left it at that; and they never released those 9-11 calls, and had no intention of releasing them until public pressure kept on building for weeks and forced their hand.

The claim that I'm hearing now on the right wing Buffalo radio talk shows that it's Zimmerman on the ground screaming like a little girl, sure don't paint a very flattering portrait of the shooter, even if true...considering his considerable size advantage. The witness who made the call and where the screams can be heard, still doesn't believe it is Zimmerman's voice, and she said that the screams stopped as soon as the gun went off, and she didn't hear Zimmerman crying as he and his friends are claiming now.

But, this is all beside the point, as anyone...including myself, would have viewed a 300 lb man trying to follow me as the threat. Even if the Zimmerman account is 100%, the victim was defending himself from a stranger, and the assailant had no right to continue following someone he thought "might be up to something" after being told by the dispatcher to back off. The shooting, under no circumstances can be construed as a man standing his ground and acting in self-defense. At best, it's still manslaughter, at worst it's murder. So it's the police force and the chief that I want to see the investigation of for how they handled this crime, and an investigation of other crimes that might have similar circumstances.

 

[work in progress]

I ignore the comments, since how people feel sheds no light on the issues.

I believe comments shed a lot of light on how a site functions, since the frequent commenters tell alot about the fan-base of the group. For instance, take a look at how Foxnews has dealt with situations where they've been called out for allowing racist and similar egregious comments by removing them afterwards, rather than flagging and removing the comments before Mediamatters sends them to the Rachel Maddow Show or something similar.

 

[Revoltingest]

The claim that I'm hearing now on the right wing Buffalo radio talk shows.....

Tis amusing that you impugn news sources which I link, while you surf talk radio for the real facts.

 

[YmirGF]

Personally, I don't know what to think about this. My judgment says to hold my tongue until all the facts are in... pity others don't feel the same way, really.

 

[work in progress]

Tis amusing that you impugn news sources which I link, while you surf talk radio for the real facts.

It's the same message on the sources you provided. Are you telling me that you don't even read the stuff on the links you provide?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Personally, I don't know what to think about this. My judgment says to hold my tongue until all the facts are in... pity others don't feel the same way, really.

:clap Good.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's the same message on the sources you provided. Are you telling me that you don't even read the stuff on the links you provide?

Same message?
Oh, dear.

 

[Kathryn]

From Fox News:

The Left And Right Must Come Together Over Trayvon Martin | Fox News

Republican Leaders Express Sympathy, Support 'stand Your Ground' | Fox News

Trayvon Martin case takes an intense turn | Video | Fox News

 

[MissAlice]

I'm still unsure about this issue. At first I was shocked but the details regarding this case are murky for me to hold a strong opinion. I will only say what happened was tragic.

 

[SageTree]

Geraldo just won 'douche bag of the year' aware, in my year so far.

He should he ashamed of himself.

What ARE folks allow to wear that doesn't make them a 'sell out' or 'to be feared'?

 

[CaptainXeroid]

Personally, I don't know what to think about this. My judgment says to hold my tongue until all the facts are in... pity others don't feel the same way, really.

This is about the only comment on this thread or in the media right now that makes a lick of sense.

The rush to judgement and injection of racial motives were pathetic, while the smear campaigns have been deplorable. When all the facts come out and if it turns out Trayvon attacked Zimmerman from behind as he was returning to his car as Zimmerman alleges, I wonder if the 'activists' will have enough integrity to admit they were wrong.

 

[Kathryn]

This is about the only comment on this thread or in the media right now that makes a lick of sense.

The rush to judgement and injection of racial motives were pathetic, while the smear campaigns have been deplorable. When all the facts come out and if it turns out Trayvon attacked Zimmerman from behind as he was returning to his car as Zimmerman alleges, I wonder if the 'activists' will have enough integrity to admit they were wrong.

Bill O Reilly feels the same way about withholding judgment (which you're not doing, by the way) and said so in an excellent Op Ed piece on his show.

And lest I get accused of sitting around watching Fox News, I want to make it clear that I have been researching this case from all angles - from Huff Post to Fox to Yahoo and everything in between. Bill O Reilly's approach to it had class.

 

[JohnG]

The rush to judgement and injection of racial motives were pathetic, while the smear campaigns have been deplorable. When all the facts come out and if it turns out Trayvon attacked Zimmerman from behind as he was returning to his car as Zimmerman alleges, I wonder if the 'activists' will have enough integrity to admit they were wrong.

I'll admit that I was one of the one's to rush to judgement. I was furious over what Zimmerman did. I still am, to a certain extent. But I saw the two original news reports from the local Fox affiliate the day of, and the day after the shooting. Those two reports contradict a lot of what has been said by the media since.

We are led to believe that Zimmerman was just told to go home and that there were no witnesses to back up his claims. Both of those statements are false. On the night of the killing, the local news station reported that the suspect (Zimmerman) had turned himself in and was in custody. The next day's report said that Zimmerman was in custody but had not been charged and they interviewed a witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him, and heard Zimmerman yelling for help.

I don't know what happened. I don't know who started the fight. But I do know the national media not only didn't release that information during the initial reporting the led to my outrage and the outrage of others, but actively lied about it. They are still lying. I just heard a woman on Keith Olberman say that Zimmerman was just to go home and that there was no investigation. That is false. He was taken into custody, and at least one witness was interviewed.

I don't think that one witness is enough to say that someone shouldn't stand trial. I'm not saying that Zimmerman didn't murder Martin, or that Zimmerman didn't initiate the fight. But I am saying that the media is lying, and that makes it impossible for any of us to have an informed decision.

 

[Revoltingest]

Over the years, I've found that the best default to a tragedy is to feel sorrow.
It doesn't ruin judgement as does anger, which (like certainty) is the mind killer.

 

[work in progress]

I'll admit that I was one of the one's to rush to judgement. I was furious over what Zimmerman did. I still am, to a certain extent. But I saw the two original news reports from the local Fox affiliate the day of, and the day after the shooting. Those two reports contradict a lot of what has been said by the media since.

Did you consider that Zimmerman's alleged statements to local police reported by that Fox affiliate, were from selective leaks right from the Sanford Police department? The same Dept. that refused to release the 9-11 calls that included the gun shots heard outside. And judging from some of the comments left on that station's website by most of the local yokels, I'd say there is a public constituency that would rather have a whitewash and the whole thing forgotten.

Well, if we really should avoid a rush to judgment about Zimmerman, as many - suddenly open-minded conservatives advise, there is no need to avoid judgment on how the police handled this situation. For example, if Zimmerman was hurt in a scuffle with Martin, and bloody and bruised -- as his lawyer is claiming now -- that he had head lacerations that came from Martin pounding his skull into the sidewalk – why are there no photos? Why wasn’t Zimmerman taken to a hospital? For some reason, the police were quick to believe Zimmerman had to shoot the boy in self-defense....I'm sure race had nothing to do with it!

Also, as the lawyer and selective police force leaks to friendly media continue to build their case by smearing the reputation of the 17 year old boy who was shot, the cops could have found out that Zimmerman had a lot of priors, which should have thrown some caution on the rush to exonerate him of any criminal charges. George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin’s killer, had prior brushes with the law
And one of his "brushes with the law" apparently was assaulting a police officer a month before the shooting, when he tried to interfere with the arrest of one of his friends.....and yet they assumed he was just "standing his ground," after stalking some kid he assumed "had to be up to something."

 

[Revoltingest]

There are dangers posed by an angry rush to judgement.
Elderly Couple In Fear Over Spike Lee Tweet | The Smoking Gun

Note to some:
Zimmerman is a Democrat.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/320...trayvon-martin-democrat-hispanic-shooting.htm
Let partisan politicization end.

 

[JohnG]

Did you consider that Zimmerman's alleged statements to local police reported by that Fox affiliate, were from selective leaks right from the Sanford Police department? The same Dept. that refused to release the 9-11 calls that included the gun shots heard outside. And judging from some of the comments left on that station's website by most of the local yokels, I'd say there is a public constituency that would rather have a whitewash and the whole thing forgotten.

No I didn't consider that, because the news report doesn't say anything about the police report. They interview the same man that the police did. Here is the link:

Trayvon Martin shot and killed in neighborhood altercation

Why were we not told about the witness from the beginning? I'm not saying it changes anything, I'm not saying Zimmerman is innocent. I am saying that I am not going to form my opinion before I have all of the facts, and when there appears to be one sided reporting.

I suggest you watch Indictment: The McMartin Trial, for an example of what can happen when the media tells a one-sided story, and the unfounded hysteria it can cause.

 

[beenie]

Personally, I don't know what to think about this. My judgment says to hold my tongue until all the facts are in... pity others don't feel the same way, really.

Why be so smart and fair about the situation?

**joins Ymir in neutral-until-all-facts-are-in camp**

 

[JohnG]

There are dangers posed by an angry rush to judgement.
Elderly Couple In Fear Over Spike Lee Tweet | The Smoking Gun

I feel so bad for that couple. In a lot of ways this is like the McMartin trial that I mentioned in my previous post. There were bizarre and unfounded accusations of satanic ritual abuse in that trial. Accusations with no basis in reality, but the media only reported the accusations and not the entirety of the facts. I'm sure there are so bad memories from that time from anyone who was accused of being "satanic" as well.

Anytime people start pointing the fingers and repeating "facts" without checking them, there are innocent bystanders who are going to be effected.

Note to some:
Zimmerman is a Democrat.
Voting Form Shows George Zimmerman Is A Registered Democrat, Confounding Message Pushed By Left - International Business Times
Let partisan politicization end.

work in progress stopped short of actually calling me a conservative, so I let it go. But I can't stand when somebody's argument is to label me a conservative or a liberal. I'm a libertarian, but even as a libertarian, I think for myself. Subscribing to group-think and always assuming the "other side" is wrong is bad for our politicians, but even worse for our citizens.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

This is about the only comment on this thread or in the media right now that makes a lick of sense.

The rush to judgement and injection of racial motives were pathetic, while the smear campaigns have been deplorable. When all the facts come out and if it turns out Trayvon attacked Zimmerman from behind as he was returning to his car as Zimmerman alleges, I wonder if the 'activists' will have enough integrity to admit they were wrong.

Might I suggest a more detailed reading of this thread at least. There have been a number of us who have commented on the fact that judgement should be withheld until more facts are presented. I find it ironic that you would complain about a rush to judgement right after committing said compaint.