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Trinitarians, please help me.

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I think of God as a family. You have one family but several members of that one family. You have one God but several members or parts of that one God. My problem with the idea of a trinity is that it forever limits God to those three persons. But God has said that He wants to adopt others into His family. Don't many people say they are children of God? Some day God's family will consist of millions of people. The trinity idea denies this possibility. God is not limited to three.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
If there's no definition of God then it follows that anyone who speaks about God has no idea what they're talking about, no?
God is clearly defined for us. It is a definition suitable for our needs. Yet it is not complete in total as we are unable to comprehend the infinite
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Bad news, I'm afraid.

The Trinitarians make no pretense that the Trinity doctrine makes sense. They call it 'a mystery in the strict sense'. That means (and I quote the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church) that the Trinity doctrine

'can neither be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed'.​

This is RCC and Anglo/Pisco doctrine and I dare say the other Trinitarian churches, because the Trinity doctrine is indeed incoherent.

As for claiming scriptural support for it, there's none.

That's for a fairly obvious reason: the doctrine didn't exist until the 4th century CE, long after the NT was written. Instead the NT attributes at least 17 utterances to Jesus in direct speech in which he denies he's God, says he's God's agent, has no powers but those God gives him, says he worships God ─ and never once claims otherwise.

Paul agrees ─ he distinguishes the Father as God from Jesus as Lord.

The doctrine is a political fix from early church history, a nonsense and a sorry job.
Your conclusions are simply in error. The triune nature of The God Head is clearly supported by scripture, both OT and NT. Quote Paul as you describe, then after considering context of the verse, we can explore more of what Paul had to say.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Thanks to all the thoughtful responses. I was given much to ponder.

Can anyone address the point that many Christians believe the Holy Spirit indwells in believers only, yet an omnipresent God would obviously be in everyone? I struggle with that concept. Maybe it has been propagated to form a ‘us vs them’ mentality. In any case, it seems to not make sense.
 

Bro Rando

Member
Can You Answer... Jesus Christ or God?

Whom did Joseph and Mary go looking for when their son was 12 years old? Was Joseph and Mary really looking for God when he was 12 years old?

"So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs." (Hebrews 1:4) If Jesus is God, can we conclude that God has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs?

"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) If Jesus is God, can we conclude that God is not eternal but Begotten?

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" (Colossians 1:15) If Jesus is God, can we conclude that God is the firstborn of all creation?

Would you like to find out more?
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
Remember, human reasoning and logic are rather pitiful tools to use in defining God, He is a being beyond the reach of these tools.

The Bible may use human terms like Father and Son and Spirit to give us a glimmer of God, but truly he is beyond our ability to fully understand,

Thanks for your response. I completely agree with what you say here. Our finite minds cannot possibly grasp the infinite, not here or even in heaven.

I came across this quote which is quite interesting:

“There are two abilities within us, gifts from the Lord, that distinguish us from animals. One ability is that we can discern what is true and what is good. This ability is called “rationality,” and is an ability of our discernment. The other ability is that we can do what is true and what is good. This ability is called “freedom,” and is an ability of our volition. Because of our rationality, we can think what we want to think, either in favor of God or against God.”

What you posted along with the above says a lot.

We all can ponder God and argue about things related to Him.
But the goal should be to examine our own hearts individually, and ask whether we are “in favor of God or against God”

Those who seek to be “in favor of God” will get all their questions answered, in due time.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Thanks to all the thoughtful responses. I was given much to ponder.

Can anyone address the point that many Christians believe the Holy Spirit indwells in believers only, yet an omnipresent God would obviously be in everyone? I struggle with that concept. Maybe it has been propagated to form a ‘us vs them’ mentality. In any case, it seems to not make sense.
God is omnipresent, the Spirit indwells and is active IN the believer
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
God is omnipresent, the Spirit indwells and is active IN the believer

At first read, I thought that made sense, but then more thought on the response told me no.

Too many inconsistencies. You need to address my comment in the op regarding boundaries placed around the 3 persons in the Trinity. It sounds like you have done that.

“God is omnipresent.” Who are you talking about?

“The spirit indwells and is active IN the believer”. Who are you talking about? In regards to both the spirit and the believer.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your conclusions are simply in error.
I didn't say the Trinity doctrine is a 'mystery in the strict sense' and thus can neither be discovered nor demonstrated by reason. I didn't have to ─ the churches said it for me.

Since 'mystery in the strict sense' is a synonym for 'a nonsense', I can only agree with them. Do you?
The triune nature of The God Head is clearly supported by scripture, both OT and NT.
No it's not.

Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh. Not anywhere, not once. If in doubt, ask any Jew ─ it's their book, after all.

And as I said, there was no Trinity doctrine till the 4th century. It was a response to popular pressure to turn Jesus into a god, while not running foul of charges of pagan polytheism.

But it came at the cost of ignoring the plain words that the gospels attribute to Jesus eg

Mark 12: 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;” ... 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

Matthew 20:23 “to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

John 14:28 You heard me say to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

John 16:23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask anything of the Father, he will give it to you in my name.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
To which we can add ─

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Quote Paul as you describe, then after considering context of the verse, we can explore more of what Paul had to say.
Happily:

Corinthians 8:5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth – as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
And although Jesus claims to have existed in heaven before his appearance on earth, nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be God.

(In John 10:30 Jesus says 'The Father and I are one' ─ this 'oneness' is explained in John 17:20-23, where Jesus hopes that everyone will be one with the Father.)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Omnipotent, omnipresent, triune God of love
But omnipotent, omnipresent and triune are all imaginary qualities, and in the case of 'triune', incoherent too.

If God is real, has objective existence, then [he] must have a definition in real terms, no?

So what is it?
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
Christian trinitarians:
I would like to hear a thoughtful explanation of the Trinity without picking one or two bible verses and stretching them to fit into your mind’s view of this concept.

Also, please address my problem when answering.

My problem with the Trinity:
You separate god into 3 persons. Your doctrine specifically says the three persons are distinct.
To me, disinct means you draw a boundary around each, and describe the character and duties of each individually. Yes, a boundary, meaning there is a distinction between each.
Then you say the holy spirit comes to believers. Or he is sent by the father. How is it possible for this concept to make ANY tiny bit of logical sense? I ask this because you also claim that your god is omnipotent and omnipresent. Omnipresence means he is everywhere. That means the distinct person you call the father is everywhere. Everywhere means everywhere. There are no gaps. That would mean that the father is in me. That would mean that he does not have to send another person in his place. He is already here.
There is absolutely no logic to breaking the one God of the universe into 3 persons.

So, the rules are: no cherrypicked bible verses. No bible verses period. Just answer my problem in your own words. Like you were speaking to a small child. Consider me a small child.
Matthew 19:14. Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
Think of the words from our Lord in Matthew 19:14. Let them sink in.

Do not hinder the little children with long complicated words like hypostasis, consubstantial, homoousius.
I don’t understand any of that. I’m a small child following my Lord.

Jesus Christ did tell us to become as young children, so it is commendable to adopt this attitude.
Jesus also said that he was the truth and to listen to his voice, on the other hand he warned us not to listen to the voice of "strangers" who would mislead us with conterfeit words.
Nowhere did Jesus claim that his father was omnipresent or that he was 3 God in one. Why listen to the voice of strangers ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
But omnipotent, omnipresent and triune are all imaginary qualities, and in the case of 'triune', incoherent too.

If God is real, has objective existence, then [he] must have a definition in real terms, no?

So what is it?
What do you think it is ? What are real terms ? Omnipotent, omnipresent and triune are as real as any term you may use. What is objective existence ? Do you mean what you can see, touch, smell, taste or hear ?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
At first read, I thought that made sense, but then more thought on the response told me no.

Too many inconsistencies. You need to address my comment in the op regarding boundaries placed around the 3 persons in the Trinity. It sounds like you have done that.

“God is omnipresent.” Who are you talking about?

“The spirit indwells and is active IN the believer”. Who are you talking about? In regards to both the spirit and the believer.
God is everywhere. The active attribute of God is the Spirit. That Spirit within the believer guides and helps understanding. Gods omnipresence is not active, He is present, all activity of God is by the His Spirit.

Since His spirit is always active in the true believer, His spirit is said to dwell in the believer.

The only boundaries placed around the three components of the Trinity are those of function, they each have a responsibility to perform
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What do you think it is ? What are real terms ? Omnipotent, omnipresent and triune are as real as any term you may use.
No, they're not qualities found in reality. They're purely imaginary.

And as for 'triune', not just I, but theologians, have pointed out that the Trinity doctrine is incoherent ─ can't be discovered by reason and once revealed can't be demonstrated by reason, as they put it. After all, it says that 1+1+1=1; it flies in the face of Jesus' repeated denials that he's God; it has Jesus saying 'Me, me, why have I forsaken me?'; it has Jesus (as 100% of God) being his own father, and the Ghost (also 100% of God) as Jesus' father, and even the Father (as 100% of God) as Jesus' father, raising the question of which of them is entitled to be called Father anyway; who answers the phone when you pray to 'God'? And that's not even the tip of the iceberg.
What is objective existence ? Do you mean what you can see, touch, smell, taste or hear ?
I mean the contrast to subjective, that is, existing in the world external to the self, also called nature, the realm of the physical sciences, &c.
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
Christian trinitarians:
I would like to hear a thoughtful explanation of the Trinity without picking one or two bible verses and stretching them to fit into your mind’s view of this concept.

Also, please address my problem when answering.

My problem with the Trinity:
You separate god into 3 persons. Your doctrine specifically says the three persons are distinct.
To me, disinct means you draw a boundary around each, and describe the character and duties of each individually. Yes, a boundary, meaning there is a distinction between each.
Then you say the holy spirit comes to believers. Or he is sent by the father. How is it possible for this concept to make ANY tiny bit of logical sense? I ask this because you also claim that your god is omnipotent and omnipresent. Omnipresence means he is everywhere. That means the distinct person you call the father is everywhere. Everywhere means everywhere. There are no gaps. That would mean that the father is in me. That would mean that he does not have to send another person in his place. He is already here.
There is absolutely no logic to breaking the one God of the universe into 3 persons.

So, the rules are: no cherrypicked bible verses. No bible verses period. Just answer my problem in your own words. Like you were speaking to a small child. Consider me a small child.
Matthew 19:14. Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.
Think of the words from our Lord in Matthew 19:14. Let them sink in.

Do not hinder the little children with long complicated words like hypostasis, consubstantial, homoousius.
I don’t understand any of that. I’m a small child following my Lord.
I'm not trinitarian. I wonder if you've read my post about the nature and mission of Jesus Christ?

Just because God fills heaven and earth and is present eveywhere. That doesn't mean you don't need the indwelling of the Spirit. The fact that evil exists means that God is not in the evil. The word holy means set apart. if you receive the holy Spirit then you'll be set free from evil. Set apart. Where ever the set apart Spirit is there is liberty from evil.

You think of God in terms of 3 dimensions. God is not concerned with space. But moral good and evil. The Spirit of God is Light and will enlighten the darkness. So your heart will be in the Light of God.

Spiritual Light is a place with God. Spiritual darkness is the realm of evil.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
God is everywhere. The active attribute of God is the Spirit. That Spirit within the believer guides and helps understanding. Gods omnipresence is not active, He is present, all activity of God is by the His Spirit.

Since His spirit is always active in the true believer, His spirit is said to dwell in the believer.

The only boundaries placed around the three components of the Trinity are those of function, they each have a responsibility to perform

I’m very sorry, but the more you say the worse it gets for me.

You imply that God is omnipresent, but the spirit is not.
You state that God is NOT active, but the spirit is.

Those are boundaries.

You (or the religious doctrine you believe) has placed those boundaries.
Please recognize that these boundaries, attributes, characteristics, etc., whatever, that you speak of here, that are being placed on God are done so by the human mind, NOT by God himself. It seems to me the human mind (from all time) tries to create a God in the image it conceives.
 

Jeremiah Ames

Well-Known Member
I'm not trinitarian. I wonder if you've read my post about the nature and mission of Jesus Christ?

Just because God fills heaven and earth and is present eveywhere. That doesn't mean you don't need the indwelling of the Spirit. The fact that evil exists means that God is not in the evil. The word holy means set apart. if you receive the holy Spirit then you'll be set free from evil. Set apart. Where ever the set apart Spirit is there is liberty from evil.

You think of God in terms of 3 dimensions. God is not concerned with space. But moral good and evil. The Spirit of God is Light and will enlighten the darkness. So your heart will be in the Light of God.

Spiritual Light is a place with God. Spiritual darkness is the realm of evil.

O my. How to unpack this one?

God is present everywhere. Yes. But not spatially. I don’t think of God in 3 dimensions. He has no dimensions. No width, height, etc. Those are attributes of the physical universe. But god is everywhere. Everywhere does not leave anything out. Including that which is evil. God is in the evil, just like he is in everything else. The evil exists, solely from human choice. Free will. Which is a gift from the Lord.

I don’t need to visualize a separate entity indwelling within me. I have the Lord in me.

John 14:5-7 are extremely powerful if you let the words sink in.
“5Thomas said to him, "LORD, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
When one takes 6 alone, one could think of two persons. When one adds 7, one can now see there are not two persons. It’s clear to me anyway.

I agree with your comment regarding light, to an extent. I believe the light of God is his Wisdom, which can be understood through our minds, and is necessary to transform us from earthly into spiritual beings. But God is also more than that. He is also warmth, which can enter the heart and transform us into heavenly beings. The wisdom to do good is the first step. The love (desire) to actually do good is the second.

imo

God bless and thanks for your comment.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
O my. How to unpack this one?

God is present everywhere. Yes. But not spatially. I don’t think of God in 3 dimensions. He has no dimensions. No width, height, etc. Those are attributes of the physical universe. But god is everywhere. Everywhere does not leave anything out. Including that which is evil. God is in the evil, just like he is in everything else. The evil exists, solely from human choice. Free will. Which is a gift from the Lord.

I don’t need to visualize a separate entity indwelling within me. I have the Lord in me.

John 14:5-7 are extremely powerful if you let the words sink in.
“5Thomas said to him, "LORD, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
When one takes 6 alone, one could think of two persons. When one adds 7, one can now see there are not two persons. It’s clear to me anyway.

I agree with your comment regarding light, to an extent. I believe the light of God is his Wisdom, which can be understood through our minds, and is necessary to transform us from earthly into spiritual beings. But God is also more than that. He is also warmth, which can enter the heart and transform us into heavenly beings. The wisdom to do good is the first step. The love (desire) to actually do good is the second.

imo

God bless and thanks for your comment.
God can't be in evil. That was my point that we're all evil naturally and So need the holy Spirit to change us.

Evil is place spiritually speaking that God is not in. So no wonder we need the holy Spirit baptism.

The holy Spirit is not a separate entity. You're still thinking trinity I guess. The Spirit is the Breath of God. In other words when God moves upon something we call it the Breath or Wind of God. Just like in Revelation John sees the seven lamps burning which symbolized the seven Spirits of God. But that doesn't mean God is seven separate entities. He has seven breaths or ways of breathing as it were. Modes you could call it rather than persons.

Here it is in a nutshell. (Ironically, since we're speaking of God's omnipresence)

God is a Spirit according to Jesus in John chapter 4.
When God moves on something that's called the Breath or Wind of God. Just as Wind is simply air in motion.
The first time we read about the Spirit of God in Genesis 1:2; we see the Spirit in motion. Literally fluttering over the waters. This theme continues even to the Day of Pentecost when they heard the sound as of a "rushing mighty wind".

Now the Word of God is when God speaks. As Jesus defined it "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God"

So just as we form words from our breath. God forms words from His breath. So the Word of God is formed of the Spirit of God. Sent forth with purpose and intention.

So the Father, the Word and the holy Spirit are not distinct persons, but one and the same. Inseparable really.
 
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