Trinity - Fact or Fiction?

[JayHawes]

Jesus, the saviour and Messiah was prophesied as Emmanuel, which means "God with Us"

Thus your assumption that the Bible does not teach Jesus being God and that Rome made it is is a lie.

Jesus was more than a man, those who followed him clearly knew it.

- Jesus never lied, he's the only "man" to never sin.

 

[UnityNow101]

Either Jesus is God or He is not. When I read in scripture that He prays to God, that tells me that He cannot be the Creator of the universe, but is rather a slave to the cause of God. When Jesus states that He has a God, that negates any attempt by anyone to claim that He is that God...Does God have a God? Is there more than one or was the revealation given to Moses a lie about God being one? How can you logically exclaim these even in light of Jesus' own words concerning His submissiveness to God? Oh yeah, but he was 50% God, 50% man...Now is that truly biblical? We must not add things to scripture(trinity, 50/50 god-man) that are not there.

 

[JayHawes]

Either Jesus is God or He is not. When I read in scripture that He prays to God, that tells me that He cannot be the Creator of the universe, but is rather a slave to the cause of God. When Jesus states that He has a God, that negates any attempt by anyone to claim that He is that God...Does God have a God? Is there more than one or was the revealation given to Moses a lie about God being one? How can you logically exclaim these even in light of Jesus' own words concerning His submissiveness to God? Oh yeah, but he was 50% God, 50% man...Now is that truly biblical? We must not add things to scripture(trinity, 50/50 god-man) that are not there.

You are telling the truth when you say Jesus is either God or he is not. However you fail to see the rest. God exists as three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When Jesus prayed he prayed to the Father, whom he called God. Jesus never stated that he has "a God" but that he was equal with God, that his Father (God) was equal with him. Jesus found it in hismelf to take on the form of a man. Jesus left heaven and gave up all his power to become the perfect sacrifice for mankind. That's why he prayed...and that's why he was , not 50 % man and 50% God. But 100% man in that he faced life as we did, and 100% God in that he was Emmanuel "God with Us" and he did no wrong. He was God in the Flesh. You seem to now know of the scripture where God the Father calls his Son, God (Hebrews 1:8-9). Futhermore prooving that Jesus is God.

 

[wizanda]

You are telling the truth when you say Jesus is either God or he is not. However you fail to see the rest. God exists as three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When Jesus prayed he prayed to the Father, whom he called God. Jesus never stated that he has "a God" but that he was equal with God, that his Father (God) was equal with him. Jesus found it in hismelf to take on the form of a man. Jesus left heaven and gave up all his power to become the perfect sacrifice for mankind. That's why he prayed...and that's why he was , not 50 % man and 50% God. But 100% man in that he faced life as we did, and 100% God in that he was Emmanuel "God with Us" and he did no wrong. He was God in the Flesh. You seem to now know of the scripture where God the Father calls his Son, God (Hebrews 1:8-9). Futhermore prooving that Jesus is God.

You insult Yeshua’s teachings after what i just posted, he said people will blaspheme him self and so then the holy Ghost which is through God always has nothing to do with it...
Unless you are choosing and the millions like you, to say God accepts blaspheming?

 

[rad_ic_ul]

From what I have read of the scriptures Jesus is not God.

Jesus was sent here, not by his will, but the will of God. The holy spirit was bestowed upon him to aid him.

Jesus and God share a "oneness" but they are not "one in the same"

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Matt 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.............

Matt 26:39
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Matt 24:36
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

John
5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John
5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

5:16 And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed.


Just my 2Cents.....(for now)

I want to see all trinitarians reply to all of DreGod's scriptures.
If they can.

 

[rad_ic_ul]

It is the "Word of God! When Y H V H spoke Torah the Heavens and the Earth came into being. Yes, Torah is a collection of (five) books, it also is what Y H V H said "Berishis bara Elohim at-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And it was done!"Jn 1- 5 Berishis bara Elohim at----the word from aleph to tav was spoken and the word of god created everything that was made.
Col. 1:5 - Jn. 1:14 - Re 1:8.

Isn't that what your bible tells you?

That is what I'm talking about.

Shalom

thats some awesome teaching you have there man. where did you get it i never would have even though of that before!
like your logic on that.
you no a lot more than you are leting on. don't keep the cat in the bag to long.

RADICUL MAN! BE COOL!

 

[rad_ic_ul]

hello Jay Hawes!

Theoi (GK), is the word for gods
John 10: 34 says theoi, not juges.
Jesus wasn't talking about judges when he qouted that text.
Ps 82: 6 is translated gods not judges. Or you disagreeing with your own translators?
As for Strongs quotation. That never says that Ps 82: 6 should be translated as judges. It merely gives the different ways some people translate elohim.

Question: explain how is it that the same God does not know the day and hour of his coming if Jesus is the God that is the only ONE that knows it.

 

[rad_ic_ul]

Jesus, the saviour and Messiah was prophesied as Emmanuel, which means "God with Us"

Thus your assumption that the Bible does not teach Jesus being God and that Rome made it is is a lie.

Jesus was more than a man, those who followed him clearly knew it.

- Jesus never lied, he's the only "man" to never sin.

That would mean that all people with the name Emmanuel is Jesus.
And where in that Bible do you see that prophecy fulfilled literally?

 

[rad_ic_ul]

You are telling the truth when you say Jesus is either God or he is not. However you fail to see the rest. God exists as three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When Jesus prayed he prayed to the Father, whom he called God. Jesus never stated that he has "a God" but that he was equal with God, that his Father (God) was equal with him. Jesus found it in hismelf to take on the form of a man. Jesus left heaven and gave up all his power to become the perfect sacrifice for mankind. That's why he prayed...and that's why he was , not 50 % man and 50% God. But 100% man in that he faced life as we did, and 100% God in that he was Emmanuel "God with Us" and he did no wrong. He was God in the Flesh. You seem to now know of the scripture where God the Father calls his Son, God (Hebrews 1:8-9). Futhermore prooving that Jesus is God

What does he mean when he says I am assending to MY GOD AND TO YOUR GOD?

The Psalms Paul is quoting from was addressed first to a human king.
read the superscription:

To the director upon The Lilies. Of the sons of Ko´rah. Mas´kil. A song of the beloved women.​

45​

​

​

My heart has become astir with a goodly matter.
I am saying: "My works are concerning a king."
May my tongue be the stylus of a skilled copyist.
2 You are indeed more handsome than the sons of men. ​

 

[UnityNow101]

Jesus clearly states in John 20:17 that He does indeed have a God...You can take that for whatever it is worth. I believe that God would never bring Himself to having a God. Remember that there is but one God worthy of worship. If you want to make Jesus, one who said that He himself HAD a God, you go right ahead. As for me, I will continue worshiping the God of Jesus, the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth. Number 23:19 clearly says that God is not a man nor the Son of Man.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You are telling the truth when you say Jesus is either God or he is not. However you fail to see the rest. God exists as three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. When Jesus prayed he prayed to the Father, whom he called God. Jesus never stated that he has "a God" but that he was equal with God, that his Father (God) was equal with him. Jesus found it in hismelf to take on the form of a man. Jesus left heaven and gave up all his power to become the perfect sacrifice for mankind. That's why he prayed...and that's why he was , not 50 % man and 50% God. But 100% man in that he faced life as we did, and 100% God in that he was Emmanuel "God with Us" and he did no wrong. He was God in the Flesh. You seem to now know of the scripture where God the Father calls his Son, God (Hebrews 1:8-9). Futhermore prooving that Jesus is God

What does he mean when he says I am assending to MY GOD AND TO YOUR GOD?

Thank you. I thought I was going to have to repeat myself......

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Only the Holy Spirit is able to reveal mysteries concerning the secrets of Christ, you know not of them because you do not have him, what you think you understand is only vauge unto you concerning Christ.

Right back at ya.....

There is nothing mysterious about Jesus. Vague? I think not. He made it perfectly clear. What's attributed to Jesus as to what he said....clearly shows that he is not God....Not only was he seperate from God (in heaven) he is seperate on earth.


Jesus speaking of himself seperate from God when he was in heaven

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.


Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Jesus on earth seperate from God

John 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom thou hast sent.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God




:sarcastic

 

[rad_ic_ul]

Hi, dreGod07!

Good reasoning once again Dre!
Let's see if BIG J is going to be able to answer these scriptures one by one?
Can he answer? Is this 'God on earth' doing his won will or is he doing the will of someone else?

 

[JayHawes]

Right back at ya.....

There is nothing mysterious about Jesus. Vague? I think not. He made it perfectly clear. What's attributed to Jesus as to what he said....clearly shows that he is not God....Not only was he seperate from God (in heaven) he is seperate on earth.


Jesus speaking of himself seperate from God when he was in heaven

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.


Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Jesus on earth seperate from God

John 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom thou hast sent.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God




:sarcastic

You've yet to realise the nature of the mission of Christ. That God became a man, and took on mortality and lived as we did. He gave up his glory, and therfore like us, he was separated from God in a sense that he was no longer immortal, but mortal.

The verses you mentione in no way proove that Jesus was not God. They only serve to proove that Jesus was sent from the Father, and that he came to serve him. There is One GOd in three. Jesus' God is the Father, in that he rules above him. Also Jesus is God to the Father, in that he functions as the Word of God.

Jesus during his earthly ministry was a man. He gave up his powers of diety...

Now before you continue quoting scripture which you suppose to understand, let me make it quite clear that you have yet to understand the mystery of Christ. I do not mean to make it seem as if you are slow, but some information is only for those with the "right stuff." And in this case it is the Holy Spirit.

The Bible clearly states that: "For in Jesus dwells all the fullness of being God in human form" Col 2:9.


So my response to your scripture tis that they clearly describe a man who has given up diety to become man. But yet, in the midst of being man, he was more than a man in that he was not born of a man, but of the Holy Spirit. He did not sin as men did, he did no wrong. And his miracles testified of who he was, and many beleived on him. During his earthly ministry Jesus had lowered his state of being. However, scripture testifies that Jesus is the Word and the Word is God. (John 1:1). The scripture you state just shows how Jesus gave up his power and glory.

 

[Booko]

Either Jesus is God or He is not. When I read in scripture that He prays to God, that tells me that He cannot be the Creator of the universe, but is rather a slave to the cause of God. When Jesus states that He has a God, that negates any attempt by anyone to claim that He is that God...Does God have a God? Is there more than one or was the revealation given to Moses a lie about God being one? How can you logically exclaim these even in light of Jesus' own words concerning His submissiveness to God? Oh yeah, but he was 50% God, 50% man...Now is that truly biblical? We must not add things to scripture(trinity, 50/50 god-man) that are not there.

You also forgot the part where Jesus says there was something that only the Father knew. If Jesus were God, then He would know it and not refer to some "other" being called the Father that knows it instead.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

If someone want's to extoll Jesus as being far more than human and very unique and special, I'm on board with that. Prexistent, even. Just not...quite...God.

Closest thing to God we can see here on Earth, sure, no problem.

 

[JayHawes]

You also forgot the part where Jesus says there was something that only the Father knew. If Jesus were God, then He would know it and not refer to some "other" being called the Father that knows it instead.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

If someone want's to extoll Jesus as being far more than human and very unique and special, I'm on board with that. Prexistent, even. Just not...quite...God.

Closest thing to God we can see here on Earth, sure, no problem.

That is to suppsoe that you are all knowing and can judge as to what God should know and allow to be known. Jesus being a man during his ministry, did not know all beacuse he gave up diety and all of his power and glory.

Jesus is God, because he was GOd before he came, and he was God after he left. And he will be God when he returns.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You've yet to realise the nature of the mission of Christ.

I realize it. And after realizing it It still doesn't make him to be God

That God became a man, and took on mortality and lived as we did. He gave up his glory, and therfore like us, he was separated from God in a sense that he was no longer immortal, but mortal.

Interesting...

I still don't buy it. Jesus knew that God was greater than him. He also knew that he was here to do God's will as instructed by God. He informed God his mission was complete and informed us he was ascending to the father which was his and our father, his God which was our God as well.

You've basically described a few cultures before Jesus that consisted of a God-Man concept.

The verses you mentione in no way proove that Jesus was not God.

Sure they do..."I ascend to my father, your father, my God and your God".

So plain it doesn't even need interpertation as to what he meant.

They only serve to proove that Jesus was sent from the Father

Yes....Father..God

and that he came to serve him.

Yes...God

I'm with you so far.....

There

s One GOd in three. Jesus' God is the Father, in that he rules above him. Also Jesus is God to the Father, in that he functions as the Word of God.

None of this is there in Matt, Mark, Luke and John......

The concept of three in one is man made and started with the Roman Christian Church back in the day because all of them had to come to an agreement of the devinity of Yeshua. It was in the various letters Of Paul and the decree of the church that dubbed Yeshua as God.

Jesus during his earthly ministry was a man. He gave up his powers of diety...

Show me of the four gospels Jesus saying this.

Now before you continue quoting scripture which you suppose to understand, let me make it quite clear that you have yet to understand the mystery of Christ. I do not mean to make it seem as if you are slow, but some information is only for those with the "right stuff." And in this case it is the Holy Spirit.

And I asked you some time ago if you were already at that point where you knew something the rest of us didn't. I will say it again.....There is no mystery. It's only a mystery if you make out to be that way.

The Bible clearly states that: "For in Jesus dwells all the fullness of being God in human form" Col 2:9.

I see we're back to quoting the prison letters of men (Paul). This was his opinion and I don't share his opinion...none of them.

 

[Napoleon]

My personal belief is that the idea of a Trinity is false especially considering the fact that there is no Messianic prophecy which supports it. I have a rather neoplatonic view of this and I'll post this chart I developed so it's easier to explain:

.........................GOD (ETERNAL REALM)
...........................|
...........................| HOLY SPIRIT
.......................... |
___________________|__________________
---------------------------|
|
|...................... HUMANITY (TEMPORAL REALM)
SONS - FAITHFUL - AGNOSTIC - ATHEIST

As you can see, there is a clear separation between the temporal and eternal realm. This separation exists because, as Aristotle explains in his concept of the "Unmoved Mover", God itself could not enter the temporal realm or it would cease to be eternal, perfect, etc. and therefore cease to be God. IMO, the only thing that could remain intact in both realms would be the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives the Sons of God, prophets and the like, a revelation of God's eternal will for all things. This is what sets apart the Sons from the rest of humanity because not only are they given direct revelations of God's eternal will (Moses, Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus), but are also granted exclusive salvation, as was the case with Moses, Enoch, and Elijah, because they have a "direct connection", so to speak, with God. The Sons of God impart this exclusive knowledge onto the rest of humanity (the faithful, agnostics, and atheists) who are required to earn their salvation through a life of devotion and faith. Jesus, IMO, was not part of any Trinity, rather, he had a union with God in the sense that he shared in God's eternal will and was therefore a Son.

P.S. For those having difficulty understanding the concept of the Christian trinity think of it in terms of a human being. Human beings, from the view point of religion, are made up of three things: The Mind, The Body, and The Soul. They aren't three different beings, rather, three different components which comprise ONE being.

 

[wizanda]

Rev 5:6
(6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
23 + 1 Lamb = 24 Elders

Rev 19:10
(10) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Yeshua (Jesus): worship God: for the testimony of Yeshua (jesus) is the spirit of prophecy.

 

[sojourner]

Overanalyzing Jesus sure can complicate things in a hurry.

We have to remember that: 1) OT prophecy does not in any way point to the events of the NT, even though Xians, in hindsight, see Christ as the fulfillment of OT prophecy. The OT writers were not thinking of Jesus or the Church when they wrote the prophecies. They were thinking of the nation of Israel.

2) The NT was written from a perspective of hindsight, not foresight. Even the Roman guard said, "Surely this man was God's son."

Any Trinitarian doctrine is, of necessity, taken from NT thought, which showed a great amount of theological development at the time it was written, not to mention the development that had taken place between the time of writing and the development of a definitive Trinitarian doctrine. Therefore, the events themselves, as we have them recorded, are not the pure events themselves, but our take on the events themselves. Therefore, we really can't look to the NT and conclude, "this is how things are." We can only comment on how we perceived they way they were.

It doesn't really matter, in the end, what we think the Bible says about the Trinity in a very definitive sense, because the Bible only reflects the Tradition of the Church at the time of writing, and not the facts themselves.

In the end, what really matters is revelation, not Biblical fact.