Trinity - Fact or Fiction?

[rad_ic_ul]

Hello!

NONE! of the trinitarians can't seem to answer to DreGod07's scrictures.
Ahhhhhhh! Guess that means the trinity is fiction not fact.

 

[jrnmz]

Read John 3:16-18 that will clear alot of things up. Trinity teaches that they are all one being which the bible does not teach. Or some Trinitarians use John 1:1 which is classic however think of it this way the bible also states at Mark. 10: 7-9 " On this account a man will leave his father and mother and the two will become one flesh(speaking of a husband and wife) so that they are no longer two, but one flesh." Does this mean that The two are onje person? NO. It means they one in harmony with one another. So therefore God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit which is God active force are completely separate.

 

[rad_ic_ul]

Read John 3:16-18 that will clear alot of things up. Trinity teaches that they are all one being which the bible does not teach. Or some Trinitarians use John 1:1 which is classic however think of it this way the bible also states at Mark. 10: 7-9 " On this account a man will leave his father and mother and the two will become one flesh(speaking of a husband and wife) so that they are no longer two, but one flesh." Does this mean that The two are onje person? NO. It means they one in harmony with one another. So therefore God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit which is God active force are completely separate.

hello jrnmz!

Nice piont. that shows a lot of depth in understanding underlying principle found in god's word which trinitarians eggnore in order to hold on too there doctrine.

 

[rad_ic_ul]

Read John 3:16-18 that will clear alot of things up. Trinity teaches that they are all one being which the bible does not teach. Or some Trinitarians use John 1:1 which is classic however think of it this way the bible also states at Mark. 10: 7-9 " On this account a man will leave his father and mother and the two will become one flesh(speaking of a husband and wife) so that they are no longer two, but one flesh." Does this mean that The two are onje person? NO. It means they one in harmony with one another. So therefore God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit which is God active force are completely separate.

Hi! Too all.

Take a load of this:

Figments of the Imagination

The Bible identifies Jehovah as the only true God. (Psalm 83:18; John 17:3) The prophet Isaiah recorded God’s own words when he said: “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”—Isaiah 43:10, 11.
All the other gods are not merely inferior to Jehovah. In most cases they are nonexistent—strictly figments of human imagination. The Bible refers to these gods as “the product of the hands of man . . . , which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.” (Deuteronomy 4:28) The Bible plainly teaches that Jehovah is the only true God.
It is no wonder that the Scriptures sternly warn against worshipping any deity other than Jehovah. For instance, in the first of the Ten Commandments given to Moses, the ancient nation of Israel was told not to worship any other god. (Exodus 20:3) Why?
First, to venerate a god that does not even exist is a great insult to the Creator. The worshippers of these false gods are described in the Bible as having “exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created.” (Romans 1:25) Often these imaginary gods are represented by idols made of materials found in nature, such as metal or wood. Many deities are associated with certain aspects of nature, such as thunder, the oceans, and the wind. Surely, then, the veneration of such pseudo gods is a gross act of disrespect to the Almighty God.
To the Creator, false gods and their idols are repugnant. Yet, God’s words of displeasure are mainly directed to the people who have fabricated these false gods. His sentiments are forcefully expressed in these words: “The idols of the nations are silver and gold, the work of the hands of earthling man. A mouth they have, but they can speak nothing; eyes they have, but they can see nothing; ears they have, but they can give ear to nothing. Also there exists no spirit in their mouth. Those making them will become just like them, everyone who is trusting in them.”—Psalm 135:15-18.
There is another reason for the Bible’s stern warning against worshipping anyone or anything other than Jehovah God. Such worship would be a monumental waste of time and effort. The prophet Isaiah aptly stated: “Who has formed a god or cast a mere molten image? Of no benefit at all has it been.” (Isaiah 44:10) The Bible also says that “all the gods of the peoples are valueless gods.” (Psalm 96:5) False gods are nothing, and worshipping nothing achieves nothing.
Jesus, the Angels, and the Devil

The Scriptures do at times refer to actual persons as gods. However, a careful examination clearly reveals that the term “god” in these instances is not intended to designate these individuals as deities. Rather, in the original languages in which the Bible was written, the term “god” was also used to describe a mighty person or an individual who is divine or closely associated with the Almighty God.
For example, some Bible verses allude to Jesus Christ as a god. (Isaiah 9:6, 7; John 1:1, 18) Does this mean that Jesus is to be worshipped? Jesus himself said: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Luke 4:8) Clearly, although Jesus is mighty in power and divine in nature, the Bible does not portray him as an object of worship.
The angels are also referred to as “godlike ones.” (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7) Still, nowhere in the Scriptures are humans encouraged to venerate the angels. In fact, on a certain occasion, the aged apostle John was so awestruck by the presence of an angel that he prostrated himself to worship the angel. However, the angel responded: “Be careful! Do not do that! . . . Worship God.”—Revelation 19:10.
The apostle Paul described the Devil as “the god of this system of things.” (2 Corinthians 4:4) As “the ruler of this world,” the Devil has promoted countless false gods. (John 12:31) Hence, all worship addressed to man-made gods is, in effect, worship rendered to Satan. But Satan is not a god who merits our worship. He is a self-appointed ruler, a usurper. In time, he himself, as well as all forms of false worship, will be eliminated. When that happens, all humanity—yes, all creation—will forever acknowledge Jehovah as the only true and living God.—Jeremiah 10:10.

READ AND ENJOY!

 

[Ronald]

Just FYI, nowhere does Shaul mention Satan as god of this world, men outside of his time put that on the words. Paul/Shaul says flat out "God is one." If one, there is no other god besides Y H V H --!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Hello!

NONE! of the trinitarians can't seem to answer to DreGod07's scrictures.
Ahhhhhhh! Guess that means the trinity is fiction not fact.

It's not suprising. The question was "Trinity - Fact or Fiction?"

My original answer was it is fact to those who believe it.

When you actually get down to it you will discover that this is a man made concept.

Some one here told me that the Jews were aware of the trinity (triune God) but must not have thought that the question would be asked to a Jewish person and every Jewish person I have asked have flat out said NO.....they do not believe in a triune God nor does their scripture support such an idea.

I was in a long winded debate with a trinity toting christian who tried his hardest to "prove" the Quran supported the trinity. He went as far as writing and/or contributing to www.wikiislam.com a whole area on this. He failed to read a little furthur to this quote from the Quran;

Quran (Arberry version from the Classical Arabic)
5:73
They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three. No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement.

The only thing the OT can speak on is that God is one God. It does not speak on trinity or anything like it because the people of that time didn't worship God that way.

The three gospels don't attest to Jesus being God. What it shows is a oneness. At some point the letters and opinions of men made Jesus to be God in the flesh and was considered sripture by the christian church. As what we have read that is attributed to what Jesus said and how he described himeself and his many prayers to God, it is revealed to us that he is not God. He's not mysterious or complicated to understand.

 

[Yəhošafat]

Right back at ya.....

There is nothing mysterious about Jesus. Vague? I think not. He made it perfectly clear. What's attributed to Jesus as to what he said....clearly shows that he is not God....Not only was he seperate from God (in heaven) he is seperate on earth.


Jesus speaking of himself seperate from God when he was in heaven

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.


Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Jesus on earth seperate from God

John 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom thou hast sent.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God




:sarcastic

First of all you must understand that first Jesus gave up all his power and his glory and was made into the likeness of a man that he himself had to pray for guidance (John 17:5,24, Php 2:7).

The Trinity is of three persons. THe Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. God is a title to all three of them, yet they are all Almighty God. Jesus calls his Father, GOd, becuase he is knwn as God. And the Father calls his Son (Jesus) God, becuase he is known as God:

Heb 1:8But unto the Son[Jesus] he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Heb 1:9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God [Jesus], even thy God [The Father], hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Heb 1:10And, Thou, Lord [Jesus], in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:


If you take into account the Trinity you can clearly understand why Jesus said "my God and your God." And if you take into account that It is the Father who Speaks, and Jesus who acts. It was God that Father who spoke in Genesis, and Jesus who created, and the Holy Spirit which allowed. Then you can understand why Jesus said he has not come to do things of himself but of the will of the Father.

The Verses that you quote only show his humanity. We Christians beleive that while Jesus was on earth he was fully human and God at the same Time, therefore being human he did things human.

 

[Yəhošafat]

Read John 3:16-18 that will clear alot of things up. Trinity teaches that they are all one being which the bible does not teach. Or some Trinitarians use John 1:1 which is classic however think of it this way the bible also states at Mark. 10: 7-9 " On this account a man will leave his father and mother and the two will become one flesh(speaking of a husband and wife) so that they are no longer two, but one flesh." Does this mean that The two are onje person? NO. It means they one in harmony with one another. So therefore God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit which is God active force are completely separate.

God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not just active forces, but they are clearly people.

 

[Yəhošafat]

Just FYI, nowhere does Shaul mention Satan as god of this world, men outside of his time put that on the words. Paul/Shaul says flat out "God is one." If one, there is no other god besides Y H V H --!

Actualy Moses put forward the idea that God is one (Duet 6:4). Paul though put forward the idea that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh ( Php 2:7, Col 2:9). It is true there is no god beside Y H V H, there is only one GOD, however he is made of three persons.

"And the LORD appeared unto Abraham in the plains of Mamre...And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground" Genesis 18:1,2

 

[Yəhošafat]

It's not suprising. The question was "Trinity - Fact or Fiction?"

My original answer was it is fact to those who believe it.

When you actually get down to it you will discover that this is a man made concept.

Some one here told me that the Jews were aware of the trinity (triune God) but must not have thought that the question would be asked to a Jewish person and every Jewish person I have asked have flat out said NO.....they do not believe in a triune God nor does their scripture support such an idea.

I was in a long winded debate with a trinity toting christian who tried his hardest to "prove" the Quran supported the trinity. He went as far as writing and/or contributing to a whole area on this. He failed to read a little furthur to this quote from the Quran;

Quran (Arberry version from the Classical Arabic)
5:73
They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three. No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement.

The only thing the OT can speak on is that God is one God. It does not speak on trinity or anything like it because the people of that time didn't worship God that way.

The three gospels don't attest to Jesus being God. What it shows is a oneness. At some point the letters and opinions of men made Jesus to be God in the flesh and was considered sripture by the christian church. As what we have read that is attributed to what Jesus said and how he described himeself and his many prayers to God, it is revealed to us that he is not God. He's not mysterious or complicated to understand.

1) There are four Gospels, not three. Just becuase you don't beleive the trinity you cannot omit the fourth Gospel. All four reveal a truth about Jesus, each is meant for a different purpose, and John, was written to let men knw that Jesus was the real Son of God.

2) Only someone who has a relationship with him will know who he really is. I will not say that your family is not mysterious, and that i understand them when I have never met them, spoken with them, and learned the things that they have to teach. THe same is for Jesus, unless you have recieved the Holy SPirit you have yet to commune with Jesus, thus what you think you understand about him is only a taste of who he really is.

 

[Ronald]

Actualy Moses put forward the idea that God is one (Duet 6:4). Paul though put forward the idea that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh ( Php 2:7, Col 2:9). It is true there is no god beside Y H V H, there is only one GOD, however he is made of three persons.

"And the LORD appeared unto Abraham in the plains of Mamre...And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground" Genesis 18:1,2

Sorry but it is from the mouth of God that there are no other gods! And your two NT scriptures do not say what you say they say! Clearly Shaul is making the case that the "Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us and that the "word" was born as the son of God.
If the Holy Spirit is a person. What is his name? Y H V H has a name, Yeshua the son has a name! How do you baptize in the "Name" of the Holy Spirit.

You are in danger of the Christian Hell Fire for teaching false teachings!

Shalom

 

[Yəhošafat]

Sorry but it is from the mouth of God that there are no other gods! And your two NT scriptures do not say what you say they say! Clearly Shaul is making the case that the "Word" was made flesh and dwelt among us and that the "word" was born as the son of God.
If the Holy Spirit is a person. What is his name? Y H V H has a name, Yeshua the son has a name! How do you baptize in the "Name" of the Holy Spirit.

You are in danger of the Christian Hell Fire for teaching false teachings!

Shalom

The "Holy Spirit" is the name given to the power and presence of God on earth. And as a matter of fact no one knows the true name of Jesus. Yeshua is not his name, it was only the earthy name given to him.

Re 19:12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.


We can baptize in the name of the Holy Spirit the same way we baptize in the name of "the Father" and of "the Son." Jesus taught that we should:

Mt 28:19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

P.S.- I dont say that the scriptures say anything, all I need to do is paste them, they speak well enpough for themselves.

 

[Ronald]

That is a title! In Hebrew Elohim said he is your Yeshua/salvation! Jesus is meaningless. Hebrew; Strongs #3444 is yesh oo aw/yeshua/salvation.

Actualy Moses put forward the idea that God is one (Duet 6:4). Paul though put forward the idea that Jesus was God manifest in the flesh ( Php 2:7, Col 2:9). It is true there is no god beside Y H V H, there is only one GOD, however he is made of three persons.
P.S.- I dont say that the scriptures say anything, all I need to do is paste them, they speak well enpough for themselves.

It seems to me you said the scriptures said something! Cute remark, but phoney as a three dollar bill! Next time, if there is a next time, as I don't intend to
strive for words with you, maybe you will need to cut and paste and leave off the commentary!

Shalom

 

[Yəhošafat]

That is a title! In Hebrew Elohim said he is your Yeshua/salvation! Jesus is meaningless. Hebrew; Strongs #3444 is yesh oo aw/yeshua/salvation.
It seems to me you said the scriptures said something! Cute remark, but phoney as a three dollar bill! Next time, if there is a next time, as I don't intend to
strive for words with you, maybe you will need to cut and paste and leave off the commentary!

Shalom

1) Jesus didn't speak Hebrew he spoke Aramaic, so to say his name is Yeshua, is off the mark.

2) Jesus comes from the greek ieosus, which comes from the Hebrew Yehoshua. Yehoshua would be Jesus' name not Yeshua.

3) I am not arguing with you. If you dont want to accept the tirnity don't. However if you are ready to learn something, come back with a earnest spirit, and i will be willingly to speak with you.

 

[Yəhošafat]

Isa 45:21Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

1) The word translated God is not Elohim, but El. SO if you desire so much to go back to the original english. Then actually El said that he is savior not Elohim. Get your reference right....God Bless.


2) The name of Jesus is not meaningless. There are thousands of different translations of the name of Jesus. NEVER in the NT is the name of Jesus written in Hebrew. If the Apostles wanted us to know the "real" name of Jesus, they would have written it in the NT. But they didn't, they wrote Jesus's transliterated name into koine Greek.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

1) There are four Gospels, not three. Just becuase you don't beleive the trinity you cannot omit the fourth Gospel. All four reveal a truth about Jesus, each is meant for a different purpose, and John, was written to let men knw that Jesus was the real Son of God.

opps, I meant to say four. I have qutoed from all for previously. And Jesus being a son of God is not in question. The scripture clearly show us that he is a sonf of God.

1)2) Only someone who has a relationship with him will know who he really is.

Are you now standing in judgment of me and telling me that I don't understand him because he is a mystery to me? I did not think this was the christian way. You have never seen any of my postings standing in judgment such as this. I may not agree with the concepts of the trinity but I never stood in judgement.

1)THe same is for Jesus, unless you have recieved the Holy SPirit you have yet to commune with Jesus, thus what you think you understand about him is only a taste of who he really is.

Again, how do you expect me or others to accept this trinity concept if you are in the same boat as me?

Are you trying to tell me you coomunicate with Jesus because the Holy Spirit flows within you?

Again, Jesus is a mystery to those who make him and his mission a mystery. I understand him quite clear.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

First of all you must understand that first Jesus gave up all his power and his glory and was made into the likeness of a man that he himself had to pray for guidance (John 17:5,24, Php 2:7).

Any power Jesus possed was granted to him by God. The power to heal or make the blind see or a person to walk. He possed these powers because God granted him the ability to do so. He prayed because he was subordinate to God as one of God's servants. Of Matt, Mark, Luke or John I have not found a quote (as of yet) that says Jesus gave up his powers. I have found a few showing that he did have power on earth.

Matthew 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Here we see Jesus does have power on earth.

Matthew 9:8
But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

And here we see gave him power to do what he did.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Where is it that he gave up his power? Mind you at this point he had not ascended.

 

[Ronald]

DreGod07, Didn't you see his name on the Judge List?
I don't mind him judging, what I mind is his poor judgement!
Shalom

 

[Ronald]

Y hosafat
Oh! BTW, the Way was all Jewish! And you are trinitarian Christian, who doesn't reflect the image of God!
Another man corrupted the WAY before!

One should reflect the one who said "I am the Way." The people of the Way kept the Sabbath and the rest of the commandments! And again were all Jewish and Jewish converts.

Shalom

 

[Dirty Penguin]

1) Jesus didn't speak Hebrew he spoke Aramaic, so to say his name is Yeshua, is off the mark.

Aramaic is most likely the mother language of hebrew and if you research a little further you discover it may be the mother language of arabic. To say he didn't speak hebrew is speculation. Jesus held many sermons in many different places. He most likely knew a few languages.

Yehoshua from what I have learned means Joshua
Yeshua, from what I gathered from reasearch, is the name of the Messiah.

2) Jesus comes from the greek ieosus, which comes from the Hebrew Yehoshua. Yehoshua would be Jesus' name not Yeshua.

Can you share with us where you found this information? I have found info to the contrary.

3) I am not arguing with you. If you dont want to accept the tirnity don't. However if you are ready to learn something, come back with a earnest spirit, and i will be willingly to speak with you.

Why is it that some trinitarians "assume" that because we do not accept the trinity concept that we don't understand it? We get it. We understand it quite well.