Trinity Myth

[Melody]

Looking it at that way is inaccurate as well.You are looking each of it from a different point of view. For the You/Mother/Wife, you are someone to someone outside of you: You the you, mother of your son, wife of your husband. But for Father/Son/Spirit, each of it is something to something inside of it: Father the God, son of God, spirit of God.

It's the same with the Me/Mother/Wife. It's not just to someone outside of me, but who I am inside as well. It's a simplistic answer though, I admit.

 

[Katzpur]

No, the chocolate itself is not a snicker's bar. Without the nuts and caramel, it's just a plain ol' generic chocolate bar. Beyond that, I'm having difficulty with the candy bar analogy.

I look at the God/Christ/Holy Spirit as similar to my role as Me/Mother/Wife. They're all me but just different aspects of my existence.

God needs no explanation. Christ is the physical human manifestation of God. The Holy Spirit is the spiritual manifestation of God sent to the Apostles.

Hi, Melody.

I'm not a Trinitarian, but people who are have told me that the concept that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are just different aspects of the same God is known as "modalism" and is heresy. Perhaps you or another Trinitarian would be so kind as to comment on this.

Kathryn

 

[Ziroc]

It's the same with the Me/Mother/Wife. It's not just to someone outside of me, but who I am inside as well. It's a simplistic answer though, I admit.

Then its not comparable to Father/Son/Spirit. Because Father/Son/Spirit is not to someone out of God Himself.

 

[Melody]

Then its not comparable to Father/Son/Spirit. Because Father/Son/Spirit is not to someone out of God Himself.

Neither am I.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

The Roman Catholic church made every attempt to discredit Mary Magdalene, to the point that her being first witness was irrelevent to the believers. They were told by the church which details were important. Here, read this with an open heart, hear the truth:

I don't ever remember doubting that women have been treated wrongly in the past by Christians, so I am not sure why you keep bringing this up. I even agree that it is wrong that women have been treated this way and have brought up Biblical reasons that support why I agree with you. Which is precisely why I disagree that the Bible is a strictly male book. If it were I could not come up with any Biblical reasons for why discriminating against women, but I have. I thought this was originally supposed to be about the trinity?

Sincerely,
SolideoGloria

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

I'm not a Trinitarian, but people who are have told me that the concept that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are just different aspects of the same God is known as "modalism" and is heresy. Perhaps you or another Trinitarian would be so kind as to comment on this.

This unfortunatley comes from, I hope, well intended Christians trying to explain the trinity with a limited knowledge of what it actually is. You are right about modalism being heresy though, although this point does nothing to discredit the docctrine of the trinity. All it does is discredits well intended Christians.

Sincerely,
Solideogloria

 

[Ziroc]

...For the You/Mother/Wife, you are someone to someone outside of you: You the you, mother of your son, wife of your husband. But for Father/Son/Spirit, each of it is something to something inside of it: Father the God, son of God, spirit of God.

...It's not just to someone outside of me...

Then its not comparable to Father/Son/Spirit. Because Father/Son/Spiritis not to someone out of God Himself.

Neither am I.

I spy with my little eye contradictions in your statements. Are you trying to deny what you just said? In your first statement above, you confirmed that its not just to someone outside of me. Then I said Father/Son/Spirit is not to someone out of God Himself. And you said "neither am I", which means that you are agreeing that you are not to someone outside of you.

 

[Katzpur]

This unfortunatley comes from, I hope, well intended Christians trying to explain the trinity with a limited knowledge of what it actually is. You are right about modalism being heresy though, although this point does nothing to discredit the docctrine of the trinity. All it does is discredits well intended Christians.

Sincerely,
Solideogloria

Okay, but what I'm trying to do is determine what modalism actually is. If I hear well-intentioned Christians describe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as three different "aspects" of the same God, how am I to know whether that's an accurate explanation or not? If Melody's explanation would qualify as Modalism, I would like to hear the "non-heretical" explanation of what the Trinity is. You see, I really would like to be able to understand this belief, but it makes it difficult when different Trinitarians explain it so differently. I've heard the water/ice/steam analogy and as well as a whole variety of other analogies, but so far, none of them make any sense to me. And how is someone like me (with no real background in what the Trinity really means) know whose explanation to accept as "offical and accurate"?

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

I spy with my little eye contradictions in your statements. Are you trying to deny what you just said? In your first statement above, you confirmed that its not just to someone outside of me. Then I said Father/Son/Spirit is not to someone out of God Himself. And you said "neither am I", which means that you are agreeing that you are not to someone outside of you.

I think what Firdaus is saying is something along this line: A person can be both a daughter and a mother, but it is impossible for anyone to be either a daughter to herself or a mother to herself. If the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one" in same the way that you are yourself, a mother and a daughter, you've relationship between three separate beings. Surely the Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Holy Ghost!

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

I don't ever remember doubting that women have been treated wrongly in the past by Christians, so I am not sure why you keep bringing this up. I even agree that it is wrong that women have been treated this way and have brought up Biblical reasons that support why I agree with you. Which is precisely why I disagree that the Bible is a strictly male book. If it were I could not come up with any Biblical reasons for why discriminating against women, but I have. I thought this was originally supposed to be about the trinity?

I brought it up again because you say I have no validation for the Bible being influenced by an all male point of view, which is EXACTLY what happened to the Trinity. God is not all male. He is perfect, male-female. It is written that as above, so below. Everything is a mirror to us. So for one to say that the Trinity is like mother, wife, daughter, is that person seeing themselves reflected in the Trinity. The Trinity is also mirrored to humans as mind, soul, spirit. But God the One True source is not MALE father, MALE child, MALE ghost. This is a false doctrine, given to us by the teachings of Peter and Paul. This is not the teachings of Jesus. I am trying to get people to understand the Trinity. Everyone should know that the Trinity, that which is God, is the perfect combination of Father, Mother, Child. The Holy Ghost, is not a ghost or male, it is the Divine Female.

 

[Melody]

I spy with my little eye contradictions in your statements. Are you trying to deny what you just said? In your first statement above, you confirmed that its not just to someone outside of me. Then I said Father/Son/Spirit is not to someone out of God Himself. And you said "neither am I", which means that you are agreeing that you are not to someone outside of you.

<sigh> ok....let's try this again. When *I* say God/Christ/Holy Spirit, they are all aspects/faces of God. When *I* say Me/Mother/Wife, they are all aspects/faces of me.

When God looks at Himself, he sees the aspects of Christ/Holy Spirit but they are still him. When I look at myself, I see the aspects of Mother/Wife. Obviously I'm guess about God.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

<sigh> ok....let's try this again. When *I* say God/Christ/Holy Spirit, they are all aspects/faces of God. When *I* say Me/Mother/Wife, they are all aspects/faces of me.

When God looks at Himself, he sees the aspects of Christ/Holy Spirit but they are still him. When I look at myself, I see the aspects of Mother/Wife. Obviously I'm guess about God.

Let me repeat, you are seeing yourself mirrored in the Trinity. But God is not all male, he is the perfect balance of Father-Mother-Child. We are told that women will become like men, and only when we become like children may we enter the kingdom of Heaven. What about a woman who never marries or has children. They would never be a mother or a wife. But God is Father-Mother-Child, without marriage, without separation.

 

[Melody]

Hi, Melody.

I'm not a Trinitarian, but people who are have told me that the concept that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are just different aspects of the same God is known as "modalism" and is heresy. Perhaps you or another Trinitarian would be so kind as to comment on this.

Kathryn

These two verses show that God is the "Word" and Jesus was the "Word". He either was God...or a second God. I believe in only one God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14


The next verses show that God was the Alpha and Omega but the Lamb of God (Christ) is said to be Alpha and Omega as well.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8

1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. <snip>
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; <snip>
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Revelation 1:13 (snipped for the sake of brevity)


The next verses show God is the judge of the world...but Jesus claimed that also. Again I'm snipping for brevity, but this does not alter the meaning. If anything it enforces it.

Let the nations be roused and let them go up to the valley of Jehoshaphat,for there I will sit in judgment on all the surrounding nations.
Joel 3:12

When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:31

There are many many more passages that reflect the message that God and Jesus are one...I've only given a few.

Christ claimed He was God. If you don't believe Christ is God, then the only alternative is that He is a liar. If you believe He is God, but He isn't just an aspect of God the Father, then the only alternative is that he is another God. I believe in one God.

Only God is perfect and sinless. Jesus was also perfect and sinless. If only God can be free of sin, then Jesus must be God.

When people say that God and Jesus can't be the same because how can God send Himself down to be man's salvation, it is because they are limiting God's Glory. I do not put limitations on God. He can do anything. If we wants to put himself in the form of a human man, perfect and sinless, and sacrifice Himself for our salvation...then He can do it. Because He is God.

 

[Melody]

Let me repeat, you are seeing yourself mirrored in the Trinity. But God is not all male, he is the perfect balance of Father-Mother-Child. We are told that women will become like men, and only when we become like children may we enter the kingdom of Heaven. What about a woman who never marries or has children. They would never be a mother or a wife. But God is Father-Mother-Child, without marriage, without separation.

I'm obviously not able to communicate my thoughts on this matter in a way you can understand and, since it is of little consequence anyway, I'll drop it for now. If I find a better way to explain it, I'll come back.

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

There are many many more passages that reflect the message that God and Jesus are one...I've only given a few.

Jesus said that he and God where one. This is true. And using simple math techniques that would mean that Jesus is God, but even if that was true, God said put no God's before him. So now we are on a marry-go- round. So let's go back to where Jesus said that he and the Father are one.

HEAR THIS: WE ARE ALL GOD'S CHILDREN.

Melody, you are one with God. Does that mean you are God? You also can walk the path of Jesus. You say Jesus was without sin, however, the Jew's would argue. According to their laws, he was a blasphemer. So, where does this lead your belief. You are contradicting yourself with scripture.

You alone are 'me-mother-wife'. This helps you define the Trinity. But what about the person who does not marry. Your explanation of the Trinity would not be understood by them, or a male either, for they certainly do not know what it's like to be a mother or a wife.

The Trinity is not three seperate parts of the whole. It is the whole. And the only way to explain it is to put a perfect mother, a perfect father, and their perfect child into one body. That is as close to defining God as we can get.

 

[Melody]

Jesus said that he and God where one. This is true. And using simple math techniques that would mean that Jesus is God, but even if that was true, God said put no God's before him. So now we are on a marry-go- round.

Exactly... so God is Jesus and Jesus is God. They are one so we aren't putting any God's before Him.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

You see, I really would like to be able to understand this belief, but it makes it difficult when different Trinitarians explain it so differently. I've heard the water/ice/steam analogy and as well as a whole variety of other analogies, but so far, none of them make any sense to me. And how is someone like me (with no real background in what the Trinity really means) know whose explanation to accept as "offical and accurate"?

Belive it or not, I understand your confusion and am even sorry for it. One of the most confusing parts about the trinity is the fact that while yes, Christians do indeed believe in one God, the Father is God, The Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, all three are still individuals that make up one God. it is not Pantheism or Modalism. I am of the opinion that trying to compare this idea to anything else just confuses the matter even more because there is nothing else like it. What well intentioned Christians do when they do that is actually try to compare three parts of something that make up a whole something with three whole things that make up a whole thing which just doesn't make much sense in our human logic and turns into us trying to make out God to be three parts that make up a whole which is Biblically not the case. So the Kicker comes when trying to compare God's essense with something that was created by God. In all truthfullness, it just can't be done and still make sense, and actually does more harm than good. Once again, I am of the opinion that if Christians would just stick with the facts and back it up with scripture, it would do more for causing less confusion.

I brought it up again because you say I have no validation for the Bible being influenced by an all male point of view, which is EXACTLY what happened to the Trinity.

And yet you still have yet to answer why it is that if it was so "influenced by an all male point of view", then why does it still allow such facts like it was indeed women who were the first to see the resurrected Jesus, or why does it have verses like Galations 3:27-28 which directly contradict the rediculously male oriented society of the time, which I have agreed with you as being true. Please do not make me repost or do you want me to post even more verses that contradict an all male influnce? On top of that, the only thing I have asked you to validate is your belief about Peter having serious problems with Mary Magdelene and how obvious it was in the Bible. I thought we were both under the understanding that we were talking about the cannonized Bible. You then bring up what IS truly an all male influnced non cannonical book (the Gospel of Thomas) to validate your point. Maybe what we have problems understanding each other with is what we consider "the Bible".

It is written that as above, so below.

Go ahead and call me ignorant, but where is this written?

Everything is a mirror to us. So for one to say that the Trinity is like mother, wife, daughter, is that person seeing themselves reflected in the Trinity. The Trinity is also mirrored to humans as mind, soul, spirit.

Actually, I could make a pretty good case for that the only time this starts happening is when people start gaining what is called a "god complex". I try not to compare myself with God. I find that I always come up short.

But God the One True source is not MALE father, MALE child, MALE ghost. This is a false doctrine, given to us by the teachings of Peter and Paul.

What happened to :

It was explained to me that when Saul decided to spread the word of Christianity. (The one who didn't believe in Christ till after his death). He went to convert the Greeks to Christianity. How do you get a group of people who believe in many Gods to change their mind and believe there is only one? Well, he took the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and used it as a tool to convert the Greeks.

You have completely abandoned this statement for the sake of femanism to the point of being against an all male inlfuenced society even though I have shown verses from the Bible that are against an all male influnced society and promote all spiritual perception rather than physical perception and recording the truth in spite of how embarrassing it is in an all male influenced society. You have turned a statement that was against trinitarian doctrine, which was the original intent of Jewscout's statement which you quoted, and turned it into a pro femanism arguement, which is exactly the same as promoting an all male influnced society, which is obviously what you are against.

Sincerely,
SoliDeogloria

 

[Katzpur]

Belive it or not, I understand your confusion and am even sorry for it. One of the most confusing parts about the trinity is the fact that while yes, Christians do indeed believe in one God, the Father is God, The Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, all three are still individuals that make up one God. it is not Pantheism or Modalism. I am of the opinion that trying to compare this idea to anything else just confuses the matter even more because there is nothing else like it. What well intentioned Christians do when they do that is actually try to compare three parts of something that make up a whole something with three whole things that make up a whole thing which just doesn't make much sense in our human logic and turns into us trying to make out God to be three parts that make up a whole which is Biblically not the case. So the Kicker comes when trying to compare God's essense with something that was created by God. In all truthfullness, it just can't be done and still make sense, and actually does more harm than good. Once again, I am of the opinion that if Christians would just stick with the facts and back it up with scripture, it would do more for causing less confusion.

Thank you for one of the best explanations of the Trinity I've heard yet. I also appreciate the fact that you have emphasized that your response represents your opinion and your own personal understanding. Too often, people make statements on doctrines as if they were the sole authority on the subject and with the attitude that "if you don't agree with me, you're wrong." So... thanks for the information and for your non-confrontational approach.

I have just a couple of comments about what you have said. You said that "all three are still individuals that make up one God." My mouth literally dropped when you said that, because I've never heard any Trinitarian express it like that. I am not a Trinitarian, and yet that is exactly how I would express my own belief. So now, I don't know whether to be more confused or less confused!

I see the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as physically distinct from one another but so perfectly unitied in mind and will that they can be said to be "one." I also believe that all three are "God." I can be referring to Jesus and call Him "God;" I can be speaking of the Father and call Him "God." Same with the Holy Ghost. Or, I can say "God" and mean all three of them simultaneously, since they are collectively the "Godhead" mentioned in the New Testament.

Maybe our understanding isn't all that different after all. I'm sure that we still don't share exactly the same beliefs as to the nature of the three "individuals" who make up the Godhead, but I really don't have much of a quarrel with how you've explained your understanding.

God bless,
Kathryn

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

Too often, people make statements on doctrines as if they were the sole authority on the subject and with the attitude that "if you don't agree with me, you're wrong." So... thanks for the information and for your non-confrontational approach.

Well, I definetly don't claim to have it all figured out. When it comes to this highly debated subject I recognize that many Christians approach trying to explain it in different ways. So instead of looking down on them for finding different ways of reaching the same ends, I just wanted to post why I personally take the approach I do. There is a legend that St. Patrick (The REAL reason behind St. Patrick's day) used a three leaf clover to explain to the Irish the doctrine of the trinity. Now, I may disagree with his mehtod, But I am in no place to look down on him for it, especially when you consider that it was probably very effective for what he was trying to do.

My mouth literally dropped when you said that, because I've never heard any Trinitarian express it like that. I am not a Trinitarian, and yet that is exactly how I would express my own belief. So now, I don't know whether to be more confused or less confused!

Well, I have an outline from the Christian Research Institute, considered to be the largest Christian Apologetics ministry at least in the U.S. if not the world, on "the Biblical basis of the Doctrine of the Trinity" (Statement DT160). It's kind of long so I won't get into the details, but that last section of it, which is a conclusion, states:

A. All the elements of the doctrine are taught in Scripture
1. One God
2. The Father is God
3. The Son is God
4. The Holy Spirit is God
5. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three persons (In order to keep this last statement in it's intended context, it should be noted here that the section before that is titled "The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons)

So, while it is unfortunate that you feel that you haven't heard it explained that way before, I wanted to give you some hope in the fact that there are Christian groups out there with some degree of athority about them that explain it the same way I did.

I see the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as physically distinct from one another but so perfectly unitied in mind and will that they can be said to be "one." I also believe that all three are "God." I can be referring to Jesus and call Him "God;" I can be speaking of the Father and call Him "God." Same with the Holy Ghost. Or, I can say "God" and mean all three of them simultaneously, since they are collectively the "Godhead" mentioned in the New Testament.

Maybe our understanding isn't all that different after all. I'm sure that we still don't share exactly the same beliefs as to the nature of the three "individuals" who make up the Godhead, but I really don't have much of a quarrel with how you've explained your understanding.

From what I see, it looks like the only place where we may disagree is that in Christianity, When Jesus or the Holy Spirit is called God it has to do with more than "perfectly unitied in mind and will ". It has to do with essence, which is interesting when you consider that at the Council at Nicea, that is what the argument over the issue finally came down to. In other words, what exactly did Jesus mean when he stated in John 10:30 "I and the Father are One". Did he mean that He was one with the Father in "mind and will" or in essence?

Sincerely,
SolideoGloria

 

[EnhancedSpirit]

But God the One True source is not MALE father, MALE child, MALE ghost. This is a false doctrine, given to us by the teachings of Peter and Paul.

What happened to :

It was explained to me that when Saul decided to spread the word of Christianity. (The one who didn't believe in Christ till after his death). He went to convert the Greeks to Christianity. How do you get a group of people who believe in many Gods to change their mind and believe there is only one? Well, he took the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and used it as a tool to convert the Greeks.

You have completely abandoned this statement for the sake of femanism to the point of being against an all male inlfuenced society even though I have shown verses from the Bible that are against an all male influnced society and promote all spiritual perception rather than physical perception and recording the truth in spite of how embarrassing it is in an all male influenced society. You have turned a statement that was against trinitarian doctrine, which was the original intent of Jewscout's statement which you quoted, and turned it into a pro femanism arguement, which is exactly the same as promoting an all male influnced society, which is obviously what you are against.

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. First, the Trinity was not defined by one event, it evolved. I didn't abandon one idea for another. I said that Saul used the docterine to convert the Greeks. I said the Trinity was defined by the teachings of Peter and Paul (Paul is Saul, same person).

Second, I did not start this thread to speak against the Holy Trinity, but to give it's proper definition. I did not turn this into a arguement about sexism, I only defined the essence of our history. Stating the fact that our history was written from the man's point of view.

Third, I have already pointed out that the church discredited Mary, made her appear as a prostitute, so who cares if she was there, right? Anyway, this is not a discussion on feminism. This is about the Holy Trinity.

The Trinity is an attempt to describe God, using our knowledge of the physical world, right? God said he made us in his image both male and female, right? So why is it so hard to comprehend that the female aspects of God would not be included in the Trinity? I'm only trying to explain that the Holy Ghost is the divine feminine. And the Trinity was taught to us with slight misconceptions. And these misconceptions were not on purpose, it was merely a product of the teachers' (the apostles) opinions. The way they were brought up, what they were taught to believe.

Sometimes, to see the truth. You have to forget what everyone has told you your whole life, and listen to a higher authority than those who wrote our history.