King Phenomenon
Veteran Member
I don’t know about anybody else.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Trinity
- Thread starter King Phenomenon
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I don't care but since he made a claim I am holding him to that claim.
I see this is because we one and all, are created in the Image of God. (The potential of perfection as a human)
The quandary we face with our experiences and reflections, is to determine what is of God and what is from our own selves.
Nature and Nurture make this a challenging and diverse topic.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
If you've seen me, you will see the Father, since Baha'u'llah was not around for anyone to see when that verse was recorded.
If that be the case I guess not many people have 'truly seen' Jesus as the Son, not yet anyway.
King Phenomenon
Veteran Member
People see him everyday, all over the world, from all walks of life.
Wouldn't the reasonable first step be to determine whether there's actually a god to investigate?
What makes you think we're created in the image of God, and why is differentiating between what's of Him and us important?
Maybe He is from our own selves...
JACC2312
Member
Daniel 7:9-14
9.While I was watching, thrones were set in place and one most venerable took his seat. His robe was white as snow, the hair of his head as pure as wool. His throne was a blaze of flames, its wheels were a burning fire.
10.A stream of fire poured out, issuing from his presence. A thousand thousand waited on him, ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was in session and the books lay open.
11.'I went on watching: then, because of the noise made by the boastings of the horn, as I watched, the beast was put to death, and its body destroyed and committed to the flames.
12.The other beasts were deprived of their empire, but received a lease of life for a season and a time.
13.I was gazing into the visions of the night, when I saw, coming on the clouds of heaven, as it were a son of man. He came to the One most venerable and was led into his presence.
14.On him was conferred rule, honour and kingship, and all peoples, nations and languages became his servants. His rule is an everlasting rule which will never pass away, and his kingship will never come to an end.
JACC2312
Member
Genesis 1:1-3
1.In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
2.Now the earth was a formless void, there was darkness over the deep, with a divine wind sweeping over the waters.
3.God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light.
God Creates (The Father) through his Word "GOD SAID" (The Son) and His Spirit is expressed independently "Divine Wind" (Holy Spirit)
I see it as a similarly, and as such it is a Prophecy. Consider that Jesus also says no one has seen God. We knowJesus showed us of the Attributes of God.
John14:9 Jesus said unto him, “Have I been so long a time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, ‘Show us the Father’?
I would thus agree with your statement, if one does not see God in Baha'u'llah, then they are yet to see God in Jesus the Christ.
Regards Tony
That is the first step, a step I started back in 1984 and personally found that with no doubt that there is a God that sends all the Messengers.Wouldn't the reasonable first step be to determine whether there's actually a god to investigate?
What makes you think we're created in the image of God, and why is differentiating between what's of Him and us important?
Maybe He is from our own selves...
My journey started with a book called "God Loves Laughter" by William Sears, it was an avatar I have used.
Regards Tony
What evidence led you to your belief in God? I've read a lot of apologetics, and every argument is flawed in one way or another.
If you could provide a rational, evidenced, logically constructed argument we non-believers would be fascinated.
For everyone it is different, my path will not be another's path.
All I can really offer is that it requires us to make the decision to search for the truth about God, to look at the given evidence with logic and reason.
At the time I was given the information, I had two choices, to reject the information I was offered, which I did for a little while, or to look at that information and make a logical and just decision after I had weighed the evidence and possibilities contained in that information.
From my nature and nurture, which included a life as a child in Malaysia witnessing both Hindu and Buddhist cultures and practices combined with my mother's faith of Christianity, defined my thoughts about God. From around the age of 10 life no longer included any faith based lifestyle, my mother was not practicing her faith by taking us to church, I was pursuing my own life that included no faith, yet in the back of my mind there was the foundation thought, that if there was a God, then it was most logical it was a God for everyone.
So, when the opportunity came from me to determine the truth of the information presented, that foundation of One became an important key to the evidence that was provided to me, but I still had to make the choice to look at it.
For everyone else, their nature and nurture will have built differnt keys of understanding, but no matter what those are, they have to make a choice to undertake an honest search of any provided materials.
Regards Tony
McBell
Admiral Obvious
So basically what you said isnot what you actually meant.
Gotcha.
Claim made...
Another claim...
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I meant it. I am just not going to support it with Bible verses since that is too time-consuming.
Last edited:
Not looking for a path, just evidence or a rational apology.
And that's what I'm looking for: "the given evidence with logic and reason." What is this evidence?
Great! So what was this information?
Could you diagram a syllogism for me?
OK, already! What was this "information presented?"
Nature and nurture have nothing to do with ontology. I'm asking for actual objective evidence; evidence that presumably existed even before the Earth was formed.
Your religiosity seems more based on a need or desire than a logical deduction or evidence-based induction. It sounds like a subjective inference, at best.
This is why I remain a non-believer. Noöne seems able to make a good case for a god. Arguments are either subjective, unevidenced, or illogical.
Faith has absolutely nothing to do with one's own needs or desires, faith is built on exactly the opposite, faith is built on relinquishing ones own needs and desires, it is built on humility.
Faith can only be built upon the greatest evidence that there is of God, which is "The Self of God", this is the given Manifestation of the Spirit, a Spirit that is of God, annointed to the flesh. One of the greatest physical proofs of the Messengers is their own self, they hold in their hands the power of creation, yet submit to impart God's will to us. Baha'u'llah, as the instrument of knowledge given to us by God, offered this for us to consider;
".....For witness, how patient I am in bearing the burden which the husbandman layeth upon me. I am the instrument that continually imparteth unto all beings the blessings with which He Who is the Source of all grace hath entrusted me. Notwithstanding the honor conferred upon me, and the unnumbered evidences of my wealth—a wealth that supplieth the needs of all creation—behold the measure of my humility, witness with what absolute submissiveness I allow myself to be trodden beneath the feet of men.…”
Note Baha'u'llah said "The unnumbered evidences.....that supplies the needs of all creation"
This wealth is the given Message that sets the standard for the age in which it is given. The evidence becomes self explanatory as the years unfold, every illness that is faced by humanity, already has the prescribed solution given.
What captivated me as I started to pursue what was recorded, is the pure logic of the Oneness of humanity, that we all come from the same source and that there is no division in what it is to be Human and this is the perfect foundation for peace.
We can only find God in the proof that God has provided to us and first and foremost that proof is the person of God's "Annointed" Messenger, it is the life they lived and the it is the "Word" that has set the standard for the age they lived and given dispensation, the Message also contains timeless guidelines and guidance that transcend dispensations.
It is when humanity strays for the timeless guidelines and guidance that God gifts us another "Annointed One", another Christ.
This is why Jesus offers advice such as this.
John 12:44 "And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me."
One can only beleive in God, by accepting the person God sent to us. They are the starting point of faith.
I can give no greater "actual objective evidence" than the Messengers and the "Word".
We can test the given solutions to the ills humanity now faces, objectively, in the light of what is already recorded in the "Word" given by the Messengers.
As to the Person of the Messengers, we have historical records and stories.
Regards Tony
Last edited:
I appears that is not logical reasoning to me, I had to look it up and it seems more like a mind game as one takes the information from two given or assumed propositions.
The example given was;
All dogs are animals; all animals have four legs; therefore all dogs have four legs.
Maybe give me an example that you see a person would use in relation to God as if I do it, it is either logically correct, or repeats itself, what's the purpose of this?
if I transpose my understanding of God over this I would get
All Messengers are Annointed; all Annointed have the Holy Spirit; therefore all Messengers have the Holy Spirit.
Thus is not a supposition, this is truth, whereas the exampe is not?
Regards Tony
Last edited:
??? Faith is unfounded belief, no matter how it tries to justify itself. It is not based on real, well reasoned evidence.
Huh? This is gobbledygook. Clarify?
I see claims. I see preaching. I don't see any proofs. I don't see any evidence or reasoning backing any of this.
More gobbledygook. Make a clear, concise claim.
What unnumbered evidences?
I can see this as biological evidence of common ancestry, but where do the religious principles come in?
"Proof?" How are you defining proof. I'm not seeing even evidence.
This is just preaching. Why? What are you trying to convey? Where is your argument?
God IS NOT the trinity
God is the FIRST source and centre
The trinity are emanations from God, the SECOND source and centre
God the Father, God the Child, God the Mother are persons/personalities that have emerged from God
God the Father is the highest we can Hope to know personally, but God as in the first source and centre is an impossibility, as God is infinite, therefore infinitely unknowable
In terms of Christ, when he says I and the Father are One or saying I AM
These are Eastern influences most probably, a state of enlightenment where Christ has come to realise his ego and human form is finite and that he has some infinite spirit
When he says I and the Father are one it’s more that he’s come to know him and the spirit are one and the same thing… I AM
An infinite point of awareness and consciousness
God is the FIRST source and centre
The trinity are emanations from God, the SECOND source and centre
God the Father, God the Child, God the Mother are persons/personalities that have emerged from God
God the Father is the highest we can Hope to know personally, but God as in the first source and centre is an impossibility, as God is infinite, therefore infinitely unknowable
In terms of Christ, when he says I and the Father are One or saying I AM
These are Eastern influences most probably, a state of enlightenment where Christ has come to realise his ego and human form is finite and that he has some infinite spirit
When he says I and the Father are one it’s more that he’s come to know him and the spirit are one and the same thing… I AM
An infinite point of awareness and consciousness
All the best Valjean, with that reply, sorry we will have absolutly nothing to talk about.
Best that you continue to live what you see is an evidence based life, I will pursue mine, which I will offer is the only actual evidence of life we have, as all life becomes manifested from them.
We can share the virtues.
Regards Tony