It's wrong to bring the Jewish religion into this. Jesus does not meet the criteria of the predicted Jewish warrior Messiah. It's their religion. Such talk has brought a lot of trouble and persecution upon Jews through history.
It is right and valid to do just that, it shows this same argument has been used against all tge Messengers. The future is promissed to them in the written Testaments, but it will not be a warrier Messiah, it will be a peaceful one, thus they are just yet to accept the peaceful path.
Come on Baha'is... Would type of interpreting prophecies by any other religion be acceptable to you?
But for most Baha'is... It has to be. If they didn't know about this until after they declared, then they've already committed themselves to believing everything the Baha'i Faith says is true. That is, except a few. But then how do they determine when the Baha'i Faith is true and when it's not?
Look, most Baha'is trust Abdu'l-Baha for some good reasons, but you are not in the position to do so, so I understand that you don't agree for good reasons. If Abdu'l-Baha chooses to use Lunar years sometimes and solar years sometimes, Baha'is see this differently as they trust Abdul-Baha, so it's okay for them. There's a divide here between having faith in a religion, and not having faith in a religion.
Using logic with prophecy interpretation is fine, but if you use logic without faith you'll never accept Baha'i interpretations. Evaluating Baha'i interpretations if you use logic, reason, and some measure of skepticism will never be a reason someone will become a Baha'i. Other ways are better, like how good do you think Baha'i teachings are? Do the Writings seem inspired to you? Can the Baha'i teachings be proven to contradict with rigorous evaluation it's own teachings, or other religions it deems to be revelation from God? Does Baha'u'llah seem to be of a character that he would lie about His claim, or is his thinking such that he seems deluded or mistaken?
It is right and valid to do just that, it shows this same argument has been used against all tge Messengers. The future is promissed to them in the written Testaments, but it will not be a warrier Messiah, it will be a peaceful one, thus they are just yet to accept the peaceful path.
Of course it's back to telling other people how to understand their own religion and scripture. Standing on an internet soapbox and telling every Jewish believer that they're wrong and mistaken. But doing so with a microscopically thin knowledge of their scriptures and religion.
You can have your 1844 if you can tell me why you use the year the decree went out to rebuild Jerusalem instead of the year when the desecration of the Temple happened. That is the question. Which one do we use to start counting the 2300 evenings and mornings. All I see is that is that it should start with the desecration of the Temple. And at the end of the 2300 evenings and mornings the Temple is reconsecrated.
That is easy for me CG. William Miller used it to come to 1844. I was already a Baha'i by accepting the good character of Baha'u'llah before I read Thief in the Night, before I knew of Biblical Prophecies.
Then later I found Abdul'baha's explanation and that was more than a sufficient explanation, as it is also used to prove the Message of Jesus. So logically it is a great starting point for the 2nd coming. That is more than fair is it not CG?
These seventy weeks begin with the restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem, concerning which four edicts were issued by three kings. The first was by Cyrus in 536 B.C., and this is recorded in the first chapter of the Book of Ezra. The second edict regarding the rebuilding of Jerusalem was issued by Darius of Persia in 519 B.C., and this is recorded in the sixth chapter of Ezra. The third was issued by Artaxerxes in the seventh year of his reign, that is, in 457 B.C., and this is recorded in the seventh chapter of Ezra. The fourth edict was issued by Artaxerxes in 444 B.C., and this is recorded in the second chapter of Nehemiah.
".. ..12What Daniel intended is the third edict, which was issued in 457 B.C. Seventy weeks makes 490 days. Each day, according to the text of the Bible, is one year, for in the Torah it is said: “The day of the Lord is one year.”22 Therefore, 490 days is 490 years. The third edict of Artaxerxes was issued 457 years before the birth of Christ, and Christ was thirty-three years old at the time of His martyrdom and ascension. Thirty-three added to 457 is 490, which is the time announced by Daniel for the advent of Christ..."
So Abdul'baha proves Jesus Christ from Daniel and then goes on to show how it is relevant to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
There is no stronger foundation in prophecy for any faith, why would I need to look any further than that CG? It is 100% logical and reasonable and I dind tgis with all of Abdul'baha's explanations.
Of course it's back to telling other people how to understand their own religion and scripture. Standing on an internet soapbox and telling every Jewish believer that they're wrong and mistaken. But doing so with a microscopically thin knowledge of their scriptures and religion.
But Muhammad is not foretold anywhere in the Bible and the year 1260 has nothing to do with the prophecy in Daniel 12. So basically the Bible does not point to 1844 when the actual prophecies are looked at and interpreted correctly (according to what they say). So it does not matter what happened in 1844, including what Joseph Smith says about it. In reality it has nothing to do with the Bible.
Daniel 12 Verse 7 - To understand number prophecies there is a few keys in the Bible we must use.
Firstly, a year in the Bible is 360 Days of12 months containing 30 days, this is from the Noah Flood timeline.
Then Each day of Prophecy is equal to a year. (Numbers and Ezekiel).
So how do we get 1260 years, many prophecies are referencing the year 1260 in various ways.
Times, times and half a time = 3 1/2 years = 42 months x 30 days is 1260 days = 1260 years.
Thus 3 1/2 years = 42 months x 30 days is 1260 days = 1260 years.
42 months x 30 days is 1260 days = 1260 years.
1260 days = 1260 years.
Jesus refers us to Daniel to enable us to understand this future prophecy, thus ties the Daniel times, times and half a time to Revelations and 3 1/2 years , 42 months and 1260 days, all referencing the year AH1260.
Thus the two dead bodies laying g in the Street were Muhammad and Ali, as the covernant of Muhammad was broken on hos deathbed and the faith of Islam became one of Laws without the Spirit. (Signified by the dead bodies).
Much can be given in the understanding of these prophecies.
That is easy for me CG. William Miller used it to come to 1844. I was already a Baha'i by accepting the good character of Baha'u'llah before I read Thief in the Night, before I knew of Biblical Prophecies.
Then later I found Abdul'baha's explanation and that was more than a sufficient explanation, as it is also used to prove the Message of Jesus. So logically it is a great starting point for the 2nd coming. That is more than fair is it not CG?
These seventy weeks begin with the restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem, concerning which four edicts were issued by three kings. The first was by Cyrus in 536 B.C., and this is recorded in the first chapter of the Book of Ezra. The second edict regarding the rebuilding of Jerusalem was issued by Darius of Persia in 519 B.C., and this is recorded in the sixth chapter of Ezra. The third was issued by Artaxerxes in the seventh year of his reign, that is, in 457 B.C., and this is recorded in the seventh chapter of Ezra. The fourth edict was issued by Artaxerxes in 444 B.C., and this is recorded in the second chapter of Nehemiah.
".. ..12What Daniel intended is the third edict, which was issued in 457 B.C. Seventy weeks makes 490 days. Each day, according to the text of the Bible, is one year, for in the Torah it is said: “The day of the Lord is one year.”22 Therefore, 490 days is 490 years. The third edict of Artaxerxes was issued 457 years before the birth of Christ, and Christ was thirty-three years old at the time of His martyrdom and ascension. Thirty-three added to 457 is 490, which is the time announced by Daniel for the advent of Christ..."
So Abdul'baha proves Jesus Christ from Daniel and then goes on to show how it is relevant to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
There is no stronger foundation in prophecy for any faith, why would I need to look any further than that CG? It is 100% logical and reasonable and I dind tgis with all of Abdul'baha's explanations.
Of course it's back to telling other people how to understand their own religion and scripture. Standing on an internet soapbox and telling every Jewish believer that they're wrong and mistaken. But doing so with a microscopically thin knowledge of their scriptures and religion.
It is easier to degrade the intent of a poster than to address the subject that has been posted.
The issue people will face when doing this, is that they would be refuting any strong foundations they may have to offer in proof of their own faith, as what is being offered is as strong, no a stronger foundation that any faith could hope to produce.
The Daniel Prophecy proves Jesus, introduces Muhammad to Jewish and Christianity practitioners and brings us the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
It is easier to degrade the intent of a poster than to address the subject that has been posted.
The issue people will face when doing this, is that they would be refuting any strong foundations they may have to offer in proof of their own faith, as what is being offered is as strong, no a stronger foundation that any faith could hope to produce.
The Daniel Prophecy proves Jesus, introduces Muhammad to Jewish and Christianity practitioners and brings us the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
My apology. It was not intended personally. But speaking personally, for myself, I would not assume the truth over another faith or belief. God meets every individual person in their own faith and belief, imo
Having a name above every name and having OT verses about God applied to Him show whom Jesus is.
Baha'is come to the Bible and deny the truth of what is there. They say that Jesus has not been given a name that is above all names, and that every knee will not bow to Jesus and every tongue will not confess that He is Lord because Jesus is not whom the Bible shows Him to be and is not coming back to earth to judge and rule.
I don't care what Paul said about Jesus and I don't consider all of it to be true.
Even if the name of Jesus was above every other name when that was written, time goes on, and the Dispensation of Jesus is over.
“They that valiantly labor in quest of God, will, when once they have renounced all else but Him, be so attached and wedded unto that City, that a moment’s separation from it would to them be unthinkable. They will hearken unto infallible proofs from the Hyacinth of that assembly, and will receive the surest testimonies from the beauty of its Rose, and the melody of its Nightingale. Once in about a thousand years shall this City be renewed and readorned….
That City is none other than the Word of God revealed in every age and dispensation. In the days of Moses it was the Pentateuch; in the days of Jesus, the Gospel; in the days of Muhammad, the Messenger of God, the Qur’án; in this day, the Bayán; and in the Dispensation of Him Whom God will make manifest,His own Book—the Book unto which all the Books of former Dispensations must needs be referred, the Book that standeth amongst them all transcendent and supreme.”
(Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 269-270)
Of course it's back to telling other people how to understand their own religion and scripture. Standing on an internet soapbox and telling every Jewish believer that they're wrong and mistaken. But doing so with a microscopically thin knowledge of their scriptures and religion.
It's telling them how Baha'is understand it, that's what we are supposed to do. That's what I do, i can't speak to everything other Baha'is have said. If they do that, that is not a good thing to do.
You left out verse 10.
Isa 53: 10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
Isa 53 is about someone who suffered and died bearing the sins of people etc
Verse 10 tells us that the Lord made his life an offering for sin. This means that he was killed. That is what happens with the offering for sin in the law. The offering is killed.
I used to think that Isaiah 53 was about Baha'u'llah, but now I think that Isaiah 53 is about Jesus. Isa 53:10-12 are about Jesus, since only Jesus did what is highlighted in bold.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
So after his life is made an offering for sin, he will see his offspring. Baha'u'llah did not die and rise again to see his offspring and prolong his days. Jesus did that.
Baha'u'llah saw His offspring in His son, Abdu'l-Baha and His days were prolonged.
Jesus had no offspring and His days were not prolonged, but I let that slide, since verses 10, 11 and12 can apply only to Jesus.
Why would another ransom sacrifice be needed? Jesus made the ransom sacrifice so Baha'u'llah did not need to do that again.
The mission of Baha'u'llah was to reveal what would be necessary for humans to build the Kingdom of God on earth, which is the new earth referred to in Revelation 21:1.
Ah the advantage of Baha'u'llah, another law. "Be nice to each other and live in peace". And here's me thinking that "What the world needs now in love sweet love".
The world needs love but the world also needs justice, and that's what the law is for.
2: O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes. (The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4)
Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and his disciples came up to show him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
Now as he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?”
And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christ’s and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand.
“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
"And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows."
These things had happened before the coming of Baha'u'llah.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
The verse says "after the tribulation of those days." It says nothing about a Great Tribulation.
This the sun was darkened, and the moon did not give its light; the stars fell from heaven, before the coming of Baha'u'llah.
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."
The gospel had been preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations by the mid 19th century.
Then the end of the age came when Baha'u'llah appeared.
The millennial zeal reached its climax in the year 1844. I wanted to know exactly why. What had led all these people to the same year?
I found the answer. This date in history had been chosen primarily because of three specific promises made by Christ Himself to His disciples. He gave three promises, saying that when these three things came to pass, He (Christ) would return to earth.
A study of the spread of Christianity made by scholars of the 1840’s, convinced them that the message of Christ had, by their day, already encircled the globe. The Gospel was being taught in all the continents. By 1844 it was being taught even in the interior of Africa, not by solitary missionaries, but on an organized scale. A commercial history of East Africa states: “Christian missions began their activities amongst the African people in 1844. (Year Book and Guide to East Africa, Ed. by Robert Hale Ltd., London, 1953, p. 44)
Dr D. L. Leonard, historian of the Mission movement, in his A Hundred Years of Missions, says of the spread of the Word of Christ and His Gospel: “… for the first time since the apostolic period, (there) occurred an outburst of general missionary zeal and activity.”
He is speaking of the last years of the eighteenth century, leading to the nineteenth century, to 1844, and beyond. “Beginning in Great Britain, it soon spread to the Continent and across the Atlantic. It was no mere push of fervour, but a mighty tide set in, which from that day to this has been steadily rising and spreading.”
Another account states: “In 1804 the British and Foreign Bible Society was organised. Students of the prophetic word felt at the time that these agencies were coming in fulfilment of the prophecy.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 308.)
This was a direct reference to the prophecy of Christ that He would return when His gospel was preached everywhere in the world.
Before 1804, the Bible had already been printed and circulated in fifty languages. In 1816 the American Bible Society was formed. George Storrs in the newspaper, Midnight Cry, on 4 May 1843, stated that these two societies (British and American) with their innumerable branches were spreading the Gospel of Christ in every part of the world.
G. S. Faber in Eight Dissertations, which was completed in the very year of greatest prophetic fervour, 1844, declares: “The stupendous endeavours of one gigantic community to convey the Scriptures in every language to every part of the globe may well deserve to be considered as an eminent sign even of these eventful times. Unless I be much mistaken, such endeavours are preparatory to the final grand diffusion of Christianity, which is the theme of so many inspired prophets, and which cannot be far distant in the present day.’
M. H. Goyer writes in his book on prophetic fulfilment: “The British and Foreign Bible Society (for one example) has issued, since its foundation in1804, over 421 million copies of the Scriptures, in practically every country known throughout the globe.”
In Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer wrote that the Gospel in his day had been spread ‘to ninety-five per cent of the inhabitants of the earth.’ He added: “It was in 1842 that five treaty-ports in China were open to commerce and to missions—advance steps in the opening of all China to the Gospel. In 1844 Turkey was prevailed upon to recognise the right of the Moslems to become Christians, reversing all Moslem tradition. In 1844 Alan Gardiner established the South American Mission. In 1842 Livingstone’s determination was formed to open the African interior.”
Dr A. T. Pierson in Modern Mission Century wrote: “India, Siam, Burma, China, Japan, Turkey, Africa, Mexico, South America … were successively and successfully entered. Within five years, from 1853 to 1858, new facilities were given to the entrance and occupation of seven different countries, together embracing half the world’s population.”
There were many additional references which made it clear that the Gospel of Christ, and its teachers, had entered every continent by the year 1844, spreading the Word of Jesus the Christ throughout the world.
This was considered by the students of Scripture to be in exact fulfilment of the words of Christ given in Mark:
“And the gospel must first be published among all nations.” (Mark 13:10)
Yes I guess it is easy to miss, let's try again.
Psalm 2:1 Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break their chains
and throw off their shackles.”
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 “I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain.”
7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.
8 Ask me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
be warned, you rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
His anointed, the King installed in Zion is the Messiah who is the begotten Son of God to whom God gives the nations and the ends of the earth as His inheritance.
The earth which belongs to the Messiah is going to be ruled over and judged by Him. ( "break them with a rod of iron---dash them to pieces like pottery")
