True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[Brian2]

Yup

Gospel Evidence that Jesus Existed | The Bart Ehrman Blog

Jesus existed. In yesterday’s post, I began to show how Jesus is the best attested Palestinian Jew of the first century if we look only at external evidence. Josephus is better attested because we have his own writings. I am also not including Paul because I’m talking only about Jews…

ehrmanblog.org

Yup

 

[Brian2]

Exactly how Jesus was judged by the people of His time, which is now seen by millions to be in error.

Your judgement of Baha'u'llah is based on the same errors.

Regards Tony

The Jews of Jesus time were told the lie that the body was stolen by the disciples. Anyone who believed the preaching, that Jesus was resurrected and had been seen by the disciples, knew that Jesus was approved of by God.
Your argument shows nothing but maybe also that you believe the lie about the body of Jesus having been stolen by the disciples.
Jesus actually fulfilled OT prophecies about the coming Messiah and is still alive to fulfil the rest of them including returning in person.

 

[Brian2]

Literalism has always been an issue with connecting with the Spirit. The dead end up burying the dead.

One can consider this, an AI Overview.

"The term "Zion" has multiple meanings:

The City of David
In the Hebrew Bible, Mount Zion was first used to refer to the City of David.

The Temple Mount
In the Hebrew Bible, Mount Zion was later used to refer to the Temple Mount.

The Western Hill
Today, Mount Zion is used to refer to the ancient Jerusalem's Western Hill.

The Land of Israel
In a wider sense, the term "Zion" is also used for the entire Land of Israel.

A metaphor for the Promise Land
In the Old Testament, Mount Zion is a metaphor for the Promise Land, Israel.

A metaphor for God's eternal holy city
In the New Testament, Mount Zion is a metaphor for God's eternal holy city of Jerusalem."

More thoughts.

What is the spiritual meaning of Zion?

The name Zion is often used to describe a place appointed by the Lord where his followers can live and serve God. Scripture refers to Zion as the “City of Holiness” and a “city of refuge” where the Lord protects his people from the evils in the world

Which I see is now Akka and Haifa and especially the Ark on Mount Carmel. Haifa and Akka are wonderful multicultural cities. I have visited it twice and had the most wonderful experiences of that city of holiness and refuge where many people still serve God.

Regards Tony

Zion is never Mount Carmel of Haifa etc.
You seem to have a heart felt faith but you are leaving your brain out of the equation.
See 2Kings 21:7, 2Chronicles 7:16, 1Chron 23:25 in most translations
1Chron 23:25 For David said, “The LORD, the God of Israel, has given rest to his people, and he dwells in Jerusalem forever.
The Jews and Jerusalem will be attacked at the end of the age and destroyed it seems and then Yahweh will fight for His people the Jews and will come to Jerusalem, specifically the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:2-5
The New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven for a dwelling place for the Lamb and God and God's people forever. Rev 21 and 22.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yup

Gospel Evidence that Jesus Existed | The Bart Ehrman Blog

Jesus existed. In yesterday’s post, I began to show how Jesus is the best attested Palestinian Jew of the first century if we look only at external evidence. Josephus is better attested because we have his own writings. I am also not including Paul because I’m talking only about Jews…

ehrmanblog.org

Yup.
The link says 'Gospel Evidence'. But Gospel evidence is not accepted by all people.
And even if Jesus existed, that does not make him the son of any God.
Nor the vision of a 'heavenly maiden' makes the 19th Century Iranian into a manifestation of Allah.
Where were God's angels that he had to send a 'heavenly maiden' to Bahaollah?
Normally, it is Gabriel who carries messages from YHWH (in cases of Mary and Muhammad).

 

[Sumadji]

Yup.
The link says 'Gospel Evidence'. But Gospel evidence is not accepted by all people.
And even if Jesus existed, that does not make him the son of any God.
Nor the vision of a 'heavenly maiden' makes the 19th Century Iranian into a manifestation of Allah.
Where were God's angels that he had to send a 'heavenly maiden' to Bahaollah?
Normally, it is Gabriel who carries messages from YHWH (in cases of Mary and Muhammad).

Yes. Ehrman insists that Jesus existed, was baptized by John and was executed by crucifixion. Those two events. Anything else is speculation. He does not argue that the gospel accounts are completely factual

 

[Trailblazer]

You agree that you have to deny the certain verses of the New Testament are untrue. You have understated that considerably since there are a lot more than certain verses which you regard as untrue and you need to do that in order to accept the teachings of Baha'u'llah, since those teaching disagree with the New Testament. And in all this you do not count the multitude of passages and verses which you say that you just interpret a different way, but which in reality you are denying the truth of for the sake of saying that they agree with Baha'u'llah.

I believe that certain verses in the New Testament are untrue because I accept the teachings of Baha'u'llah which disagree with the New Testament, but even if I was never a Bahai, I would not believe that those verses are true; e.g. rising from the dead and meeting Jesus in the clouds. I cannot believe things that are absurd.

There are many verses that I believe are true but I just interpret them in a different way from Christians.

It's true, Baha'u'llah does not discredit the Bible, he just denies the truth of it as you also have admitted that you do.

No, I did not admit to that. Baha'u'llah did not weigh in on the truth of the Bible.

Your quote above from Baha'u'llah says that the gospels in the Bible are true and have not disappeared from Christianity. But Baha'u'llah's teachings contradict what the gospels say and you also deny the truthfulness of much of the gospels. '
IMO this means that Baha'u'llah was not saying what he really believes when he wrote that quote above and you even believing what he wrote when you deny parts of those gospels.

I don't know what Baha'u'llah really believed about the Bible. All I know is what He wrote. He never weighed in on what parts of the Bible are untrue. I made that determination for myself.

There is also a particular context to that passage so you need to read the whole passage to understand what He meant. He was addressing Muslims who claimed that the Bible had been corrupted and saying that the Christians needed the Bible until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation.

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!”
(The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 89-90)

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

Jesus did not say here whether whether His physical body or spirit would come again to, but He does say that "He" would come again, iow not someone else.

No, Jesus never said that He would return to this world. He said the exact opposite, which is why He has not returned and never will.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Baha'is can't work out how Jesus come come and collect His disciples to be with Him forever, but Baha'is have a different teaching about death and what a human is than the one in Bible. A living human consists of a body and spirit (Genesis 2:7) and a full living human when Jesus returns, is still going to be body and spirit.

Baha'is believe that a living human consists of a body and spirit (soul) but when the body dies it remains dead and the soul crosses over to the spiritual world and takes on another kind of body, a spiritual body. This is congruent with what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:35-51.

We see this in other parts of the New Testament where the return of Jesus is pictured (eg 1Thessalonians 4:13-18) I suppose that is just part of the New Testament that you reject because it does not agree with Baha'u'llah.

I wish you would stop saying that this is just part of the New Testament that I reject because it does not agree with Baha'u'llah. That is not the reason I reject it. I reject it because it is patently absurd to believe these verses if you interpret them literally.

1Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again, Jesus did not say here whether he could come back bodily or as a spirit BUT He does say that it would be Him, Jesus, and not someone else, and Jesus did say that He would come again to those disciples He was talking to. (who of course would be dead but would be resurrected by Jesus)
Strong's Greek: 1473. ἐγώ (egó) -- I, me

No, Jesus never said that He would return to earth (see above).

You already know that Jesus said the "He" (nobody else) would be coming back.

No, Jesus never said that He would return to earth (see above).

Plenty of other parts of the New Testament also show us that it is Jesus who would actually be coming back and that every eye would see Him (Rev 1:7,8) and that He would judge everybody and raise them from the grave etc.

If those verses are in the New Testament they were written by people who believed and hoped that Jesus would return to earth, but they were wrong, obviously, because Jesus said that He was NO MORE in this world.

John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”
You can read the whole passage to see what Jesus was talking about. BUT what I am talking about is the language used by Jesus. Jesus said "In a little while you will see me no more......" and by that He did not mean that they would never see Him again and we know that by His next statement.

John 16:16 Jesus went on to say, “In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me.”

That verse does not refer to Jesus returning to this world. His disciples could not see Jesus again in this world since as we know Jesus did not return during their lifetimes.

John 16:22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

Yes, Jesus will see His disciples again in heaven, which fits together perfectly with this verse.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

He in the gospels and also the other parts of the New Testament tell us that the world would see Him again.

Other parts of the New Testament say that the world would see Him again but that was only the belief and hope of those writers.

It does not make sense to say that Christianity and Paul teach something and so it is a false belief. That does show where you are coming from however and that you are not really trying to make a logical argument. Your arguments are, Baha'u'llah says it so I believe it and so the Bible and Christianity are wrong when they disagree with Baha'u'llah.

It does not make sense to say that Christianity and Paul teach something and so it is a true belief. That does show where you are coming from however and that you are not really trying to make a logical argument. Your arguments are, the Bible says it so I believe it and so the Bible and Christianity are right.

My argument is not that Baha'u'llah says it so I believe it since Baha'u'llah did not say much about the Bible.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven for a dwelling place for the Lamb and God and God's people forever. Rev 21 and 22

You quoted the applicable key thought.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You seem to have a heart felt faith but you are leaving your brain out of the equation

Was that needed? Maybe you are not aware that could be just as applicable to your own stance.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Tell me about the prophecies you are referring to.

The prophecies are in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

In Daniel "one like a son of man" with "a" and no capital letters for Son or Man, means 'one like a man'.
Jesus used the title "Son of Man" for Himself to show that He was a real man and to point to Daniel and whom He was in OT prophecy.

Using that translation doesn't change the fact that Daniel 7:13-14 is not referring to Jesus.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

As we know from the gospels and the other parts of the New Testament, Jesus rose bodily and the body that He rose with is His spiritual body that is immortal and incorruptible and can do amazing things which a normal physical body alone cannot do. When Jesus ascended to heaven (Acts 1) He ascended in the same body that He rose with, the one that He told His disciples to touch etc to see that it was Him, Jesus. So Jesus ascended and Acts 1 tells us that the disciples watched Him rise up and disappear from view into the clouds. There is nothing there to suggest that He changed to a spirit. And anyway a spiritual body does not mean 'a spirit'.
You can add Baha'i doctrine to the Bible but it does not agree with the Biblical teaching, all it does is add to the words of the Bible to try to make it fit with Baha'u'llah and what he said.

I never said that a spiritual body is a spirit. I only ever said that a spirit (soul) has a spiritual body after the physical body dies.

According to the Bible, there are two different kinds of bodies. There is no such thing as a physical body that is also a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.
42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

This agrees with the Bahai teachings.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 193-196

The one like a son of man was given dominion and a kingdom. There is nothing there about building a kingdom on earth.
But you seem to have missed one of the points I was making. One of the Titles claimed by Baha'u'llah is the Title "Ancient of Days". If Baha'u'llah is both the Ancient of Days and the one like a son of man, how does that work in Daniel 7:13,14?

The Ancient of Days is God. Baha'u'llah never claimed to be God.

In the explanation of the vision of Daniel 7 (which included Daniel 7:13,14) the one who was given dominion is the one whom all rulers will worship and obey. (Daniel 7:26) In Revelation it is The Word who is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. This is the same as the one in Daniel 7 who is given the Kingdom. (The Word btw is Jesus John 1:1)

Baha'u'llah was the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, the one who was given dominion is the one whom all rulers will worship and obey.

Assumed only by you. But neither of us take whatever Swedenborg said as scripture anyway.
The gospel teaching is that the dead go to hades. See the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16). They both went to hades when they died and their souls left the body. Hades of course is a Biblical teaching. It is the place for the dead and a sort of prison where souls go to await the resurrection, but after the ascension of Jesus it seems that some of those souls were released from hades as spirits and did go to heaven but man is more than spirit and to be a full, complete man the soul is again united with the body at the resurrection. This is seen in 1Thess 4:13-18 where we see Jesus bringing the dead Christians with Him when He returns to earth and they are resurrected into their resurrection bodies and are then with Jesus forever.

I don't know where that is in the Bible, but of course you know I don't believe it.

It is the Biblical teaching and the resurrection is from hades and into a body. It completely disagrees with Baha'u'llah and Baha'i of course and that is the only reason that you can say that it has no basis in truth. You do not see the Bible as being true, that is the fruit of Baha'u'llah, and in the OT when a prophet contradicts God's words, that prophet is a false prophet.

I don't know where that is in the Bible, but of course you know I don't believe it.

The fact that it completely disagrees with the Baha'i teachings is certainly NOT the only reason that I believe it has no basis in truth.
If I had never even heard of the Baha'i Faith I would never have believed what Christians believe.

The fact that I do not see the Bible as being true is not the fruit of Baha'u'llah, it is the fruit of my own mind.
If I had never even heard of the Baha'i Faith I would never have believed that certain parts of the Bible are true.

 

[Trailblazer]

It can be proven from the Bible that Baha'u'llah is not the return of Christ.

It can be proven from the Bible that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ.

But of course that depends on whether you believe the Bible or not. If you believe Baha'u'llah instead of the Bible then the Bible proves nothing to you.

But of course that depends on whether you believe the Bible or not. If you believe the false Christian doctrines instead of the Bible then the Bible proves nothing to you.

Well Baha'u'llah did not need to rely on the Bible to claim that he was the return of Christ but that is not proving anything, and you don't need the Bible to prove your belief to you, especially if you just trusted what he said without even checking it in the Bible.

Why would I need to check the Bible? Do you think that Baha'is who were not formerly Christians checked the Bible before they became Baha'is?

To show to people from the prophecies that he was the return of Christ means relying on the Bible prophecies about the return of Christ. The prophecies show that he was not the return of Christ

The prophecies clearly show that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ. Even if I had no other proof at all, that would be adequate proof for me to believe that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be.

from a plain reading of the Bible, you have made a mistake.

From a plain reading of the Bible, you are the one who has made a mistake.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus never claimed to be a king, and Jesus never said He was coming back to judge the earth and establish an earthly Kingdom

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

 

[Trailblazer]

I am attached by the Spirit of Christ to the Body of Christ, which is the Church, but there is a lot more than the resurrection body of Jesus which Baha'u'llah got wrong, including not actually being Jesus.

Spoiler alert!
Baha'u'llah never weighed in on the resurrection body of Jesus.
Baha'u'llah never claimed to be Jesus.

Interestingly Revelations 19:11-16 about Jesus (the Word) has a name on Him that nobody knows but Himself. We all know the name Baha'u'llah so that is not the name,,,,,,,,,,,,

The name of Jesus was never a secret. We all know the name Jesus so what do you think that proves about Baha'u'llah? Nothing.

and this secret name does not stop Him from having other names, The Word, The King of Kings, the Lord of Lords.

Jesus was the Word and He was the king of the Jews, but Jesus was not the King of Kings or the Lord of Lords. Those titles belong to Bahaullah.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe you should read the article you posted including the Bible quote links and see that they are referring to Zion and the City of Jerusalem and there is nothing about Mt Carmel there. It is all in the wishful thinking of Baha'i and Baha'u'llah and it misses the truth of the Bible by a mile.

Nothing about Carmel?
You miss the truth of the Bible by a mile. The Bible is the best proof of who Baha'u'llah was.

"The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose."(Isaiah 35:1)

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.”(Isaiah 35:2)

"Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert." (Isaiah 35:6).

"And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water: in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes." (Isaiah 35:7).

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).

"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).

"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." (Isaiah 11:10).

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee." (Isaiah 60:1).

"The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious." (Isaiah 60:13).

"I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water." (Isaiah 41:18).

"I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together." (Isaiah 41:19).

"That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it." (Isaiah 41:20).

“Feed thy people with thy rod, the flock of thine heritage, which dwell solitarily in the wood, in the midst of Carmel.” (Micah 7:14)

"Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." (Joel 2:23).

"Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain." (Zechariah 8:3).

"But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the LORD of hosts." (Zechariah 8:11).

"For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things." (Zechariah 8:12).

 

[Trailblazer]

Resurrection and clouds and come to mind straight away.

That is hilarious. Baha'u'llah did not change the meaning of these words, He clarified the meaning of these words.

The bottom line is that I need Baha'u'llah to be the same Jesus, to be Jesus returned the same way the disciples saw Him ascend before I will accept him to be the return of Jesus.

You can need anything you want to need but please bear in mind it is completely illogical to base your entire belief on a few verses from Acts which were not spoken by Jesus. People can believe anything that they want to believe but that does not make it true.

And yes the Bible does say that Jesus will return, not some nebulous Christ Spirit.

It does not matter what the Bible says since it was written by fallible men....
Jesus never said that Jesus will return, and that is all that matters.

Doing anything that Jesus will do when He returns would be helpful also.

Why would Baha'u'llah do what Jesus already did?

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Matthew 24:22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

Jesus warned of false Messiahs and false Christs because He knew there would be many, but Jesus never said that He was going to return to earth.
When Jesus was asked what would be the sign of His coming he eluded the question since Jesus never planned to return to earth.
It's so obvious to anyone who isn't a Christian who has been thoroughly indoctrinated to believe that the same Jesus will return

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

These “clouds” signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws

Can you please explain to me the changing of laws to clarify your cloud.

There is no more need for the law of the prophets as recorded in the Bible.
Baha'u'llah revealed new laws which were received from God. He needed nothing from the Bible.

Do you think in the time of Jesus everyone who studied the Torah needed to forget everything in the Torah because it had become a new time for new laws? Then the same thing for those that studied the Gospels needed to forget everything said and move onto the new laws of Muhammad? Then muslims needed to forget everything about the Quran and move to the new laws of Baha'u'llah?

Do you think all Bahai will need to forget about Baha'u'llah and his writings after around 1000 years when his age ends? When the time comes that all Bahai will need to figure out who the next person is that has the next change of laws.

Do you think it might be difficult for all Bahai to reach an agreement of who is Baha'u'llahs replacement when the time comes?

 

[CG Didymus]

Exactly how Jesus was judged by the people of His time, which is now seen by millions to be in error.

Your judgement of Baha'u'llah is based on the same errors.

Regards Tony

But some religious sects and movements are believed to be in error... and maybe even by the Baha'is. Like JW's or like any other Christian sect that believe Jesus is God, or like the Ahmadiyya. And what do Baha'is believe about the Hindu sects that worship many Gods?

So, what do Baha'is go by to determine if any of these religious sects have false beliefs? I'd imagine you use your Baha'i beliefs. And by doing so you come to believe that many of these other movements have false beliefs... and that includes the largest religion, Christianity. Catholics and most Protestants have that Trinity doctrine. So, how do you judge them?

 

[CG Didymus]

Literalism has always been an issue with connecting with the Spirit. The dead end up burying the dead.

One can consider this, an AI Overview.

"The term "Zion" has multiple meanings:

The City of David
In the Hebrew Bible, Mount Zion was first used to refer to the City of David.

The Temple Mount
In the Hebrew Bible, Mount Zion was later used to refer to the Temple Mount.

The Western Hill
Today, Mount Zion is used to refer to the ancient Jerusalem's Western Hill.

The Land of Israel
In a wider sense, the term "Zion" is also used for the entire Land of Israel.

A metaphor for the Promise Land
In the Old Testament, Mount Zion is a metaphor for the Promise Land, Israel.

A metaphor for God's eternal holy city
In the New Testament, Mount Zion is a metaphor for God's eternal holy city of Jerusalem."

More thoughts.

What is the spiritual meaning of Zion?

The name Zion is often used to describe a place appointed by the Lord where his followers can live and serve God. Scripture refers to Zion as the “City of Holiness” and a “city of refuge” where the Lord protects his people from the evils in the world

Which I see is now Akka and Haifa and especially the Ark on Mount Carmel. Haifa and Akka are wonderful multicultural cities. I have visited it twice and had the most wonderful experiences of that city of holiness and refuge where many people still serve God.

Regards Tony

So, I thought Loverofhumanity said Baha'is don't interpret. Or did all this come from Baha'u'llah?

But anyway, that's okay. Now I know how to read the Bible and determine its true meaning. Whatever it literally says, that's not the true meaning. Thanks.

 

[CG Didymus]

Resurrection and clouds and come to mind straight away.

I looked up "resurrection of Jesus" and didn't find one quote from Baha'u'llah. But here's some from the other Baha'i leaders...

...the spiritual resurrection of man... is...his acceptance of Divine Manifestations.​

Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, 1988 revised edition, p.481​

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Concerning the meaning of `Resurrection': although the term is used by Bahá’u’lláh in His Writings,... its meaning is figurative. The tomb is also allegorical, i.e., the tomb of unbelief.​

Shoghi Effendi, Dawn of a New Day: Messages to India, p.79​

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We do not believe that there was a bodily resurrection after the crucifixion of Christ, but that there was a time after His ascension when His disciples perceived spiritually his true greatness and realized He was eternal in being. This is what has been reported symbolically in the New Testament and been misunderstood. His eating with disciples after resurrection is the same thing.​

Shoghi Effendi, High Endeavors: Messages to Alaska, p.69-70​

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Concerning the Resurrection of Christ you quote the twenty-fourth chapter of the Gospel of St. Luke, where the account stresses the reality of the appearance of Jesus to His disciples who, the Gospel states, at first took Him to be a ghost. From a Bahá’í point of view the belief that the Resurrection was the return to life of a body of flesh and blood, which later rose from the earth into the sky is not reasonable, nor is it necessary to the essential truth of the disciples' experience, which is that Jesus did not cease to exist when He was crucified (as would have been the belief of many Jews of that period), but that His Spirit, released from the body, ascended to the presence of God and continued to inspire and guide His followers and preside over the destinies of His dispensation.​

Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ​

Now I'd consider it a change if the Baha'is went from its literal meaning to their pretend, I mean "symbolic", meanings.

 

[CG Didymus]

And yes the Bible does say that Jesus will return, not some nebulous Christ Spirit.

But they also make Muhammad and the Bab "Christs". So, that means the Bible has to have four Messiah that were prophesied.

Your argument shows nothing but maybe also that you believe the lie about the body of Jesus having been stolen by the disciples.

And some Baha'is have said that... that the disciples hid the body. Which means is the Gospel story symbolic or was it made up to hide the fact that they hid the body? Here is Tony himself talking about it...

I see that Logically Jesus was buried and was kept a secret, so that the grave would not be desecrated.​

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There is a talk given by Shoghi Effendi which is no an official Baha'i view, but is of interest. It was given in a talk after Shoghi Effendi had been sitting in silence for a while and he offerd this.​

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"People wonder what happened to the body of Christ after the crucifixion. It was buried by the disciples under the wall of Jerusalem to protect it from the Roman legions. It remained buried there for some 260 years. (The Guardian gave the exact number of years but afterwards none of the pilgrims could remember precisely the number.) It remained buried under the wall of Jerusalem until the mother of the Emperor Constantine, who had herself become a Christian, came to Jerusalem and had the Church of the Holy Sepulcher built – at which time the body of Christ was removed from under the wall of the city and was placed under the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. And that is where it is today. The Baha’is should be aware of this fact when they visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, which is the holiest place in Christendom."​

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There has been interest with this recently as well.​

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...RUSg_CTH04c7d0Rvm&ampcf=1&cshid=1632082639108​

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So plausible?​

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We may never know, but maybe it will be known?​

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Regards Tony​

 

[CG Didymus]

Zion is never Mount Carmel of Haifa etc.
You seem to have a heart felt faith but you are leaving your brain out of the equation.
See 2Kings 21:7, 2Chronicles 7:16, 1Chron 23:25 in most translations
1Chron 23:25 For David said, “The LORD, the God of Israel, has given rest to his people, and he dwells in Jerusalem forever.
The Jews and Jerusalem will be attacked at the end of the age and destroyed it seems and then Yahweh will fight for His people the Jews and will come to Jerusalem, specifically the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:2-5
The New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven for a dwelling place for the Lamb and God and God's people forever. Rev 21 and 22.

Since there is that prophecy that Baha'is use that does mention Mt. Carmel, then why wouldn't it be clear in that other prophecy? Why make it so confusing?

So, let's see if I got this right... God meant Mt. Carmel but said Mt. Zion, but didn't worry about it, because he new hundreds of years later Baha'u'llah would clear things up, and tell us the "true" meaning. Sounds more like pulling a switcheroo, because Baha'u'llah never had anything to do with Mt. Zion or Jerusalem.

How how are we supposed to judge fairly? If it don't add up, if it don't make sense, then maybe Baha'is are just making things up? Why would just trust them that the meanings have been changed? Like "woes" means manifestations, Achor means Akka, and in one, when it says he or they will come to you from Assyria, Assyria is changed to Persia, because Persia was once part of the Assyrian Empire. Which would be like saying the U.S. is England, because it was once part of their empire?

But I marvel on their creativity.

 

[Trailblazer]

But they also make Muhammad and the Bab "Christs". So, that means the Bible has to have four Messiah that were prophesied.

No, that is not an official Baha'i teaching. It is just what some Baha'is believe.
Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ alluded to in the New Testament.