True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[Trailblazer]

Yahweh of Hosts is a title for God, yes just as Ancient of Days is a title for God.

So what? Baha'u'llah never claimed to be God, He disclaimed it, and that is all that matters.

“Certain ones among you have said: “He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.” By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs, and in His Prophets and in His angels. My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will. There is none other God but Him, the Creator, the Raiser from the dead, the Quickener, the Slayer. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors. I and My kindred are at your mercy. Do ye as ye please, and be not of them that hesitate, that I might return to God My Lord, and reach the place where I can no longer behold your faces. This, indeed, is My dearest wish, My most ardent desire. Of My state God is, verily, sufficiently informed, observant.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 219-232

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

It sounds like Jesus is not talking about himself ruling the nations with a rod of iron. It does seem like he is talking about someone else. There is usually a difference between saying "I" as in meaning himself and saying "he" and "him" as in meaning someone else.

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

And I will give him the morning star".

 

[Trailblazer]

OK so you need to say that the Bible is wrong so that you can say that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are Messengers.
And even that term and it's definition is something that Baha'i/Baha'u'llah has made up and contradicts who the Bible says that Jesus is and that Adam is and the Abraham is and that Moses is and that Noah is.

Whatever Baha'u'llah wrote that contradicts the Bible invalidates anything that is is written in the Bible because the Bible is not inerrant whereas Baha'u'llah was inerrant since He was a Manifestation of God and as such He was infallible.

So basically Baha'u'llah is claiming with his message about who he is, that the whole Bible is completely wrong.
That is what false prophets do, they tell us lies, just as the serpent in Eden told Eve that God had lied to them.

No, the Bible is not completely wrong, but some of it is wrong.

That is what true prophets do, tell us the truth. Sorry you don't want to hear it but you must know after all your years on this forum that Baha'is are certainly not the only ones who believe that some of the Bible is wrong. Actually, I have learned more about what is wrong in the Bible from atheists than from Baha'u'llah. How can I thank them all, there are too many of them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for the chat I have to do other things now.

Me too. I have had other things to do all along.

 

[Truthseeker]

We already know that John of Patmos believed that it was Jesus who would return, but so what? That means nothing except that he was wrong.

We know that? How?

 

[Truthseeker]

That is just the author of Revelation beckoning Jesus to come, it is not Jesus saying He will come.

You don't have to say when Jesus says He is coming back or someone else says that He is coming back as literal when arguing.

 

[Trailblazer]

We know that? How?

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[Truthseeker]

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

That doesn't necessarily mean he thought "Jesus" was literally coming back with the same body. "Jesus" can be symbolic, too.

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't necessarily mean he thought "Jesus" was literally coming back with the same body. "Jesus" can be symbolic, too.

I don't know what he thought but I think it was the same as Christians believe, the resurrected Jesus in the same body, barreling down from heaven through the clouds. Maybe Jesus got delayed in traffic trying to make his way through the clouds.

 

[Brian2]

It sounds like Jesus is not talking about himself ruling the nations with a rod of iron. It does seem like he is talking about someone else. There is usually a difference between saying "I" as in meaning himself and saying "he" and "him" as in meaning someone else.

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

And I will give him the morning star".

Parts of Revelation is Jesus speaking and parts is not.
Psalm 2 is what Jesus has been given and what He will do. If some others are given that authority also OK, the saints are going to be rulers in the world to come it seems.
It is Jesus who does the judging however and treads the winepress alone.(Isa 63:3)

 

[CG Didymus]

Parts of Revelation is Jesus speaking and parts is not.
Psalm 2 is what Jesus has been given and what He will do. If some others are given that authority also OK, the saints are going to be rulers in the world to come it seems.
It is Jesus who does the judging however and treads the winepress alone.(Isa 63:3)

Now with Moses he says someone else will come who is like him. But Jesus doesn't do that. Baha'is have to make "Son of Man" the "Lamb" and all the other things that he used when was talking about himself, into him meaning someone else... someone like him, but it's not him that he was speaking about.

And, since the next person to come along was Muhammad, why would that be the focus of who Jesus was talking about?

 

[Trailblazer]

Now with Moses he says someone else will come who is like him. But Jesus doesn't do that.

Jesus does do that.

Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter, so Baha'u'llah was like Jesus.
We know that Jesus was a Comforter because He said: 8 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Brian2]

Now with Moses he says someone else will come who is like him. But Jesus doesn't do that. Baha'is have to make "Son of Man" the "Lamb" and all the other things that he used when was talking about himself, into him meaning someone else... someone like him, but it's not him that he was speaking about.

And, since the next person to come along was Muhammad, why would that be the focus of who Jesus was talking about?

I see Jesus as the one Moses spoke about. It seems also to be a proclamation about prophets in general.
We can see from this translation that the prophet will be an Israelite, so not Muhammad or The Bab or Baha'u'llah.
Interestingly God says of Jesus to His disciples that they are to listen to Him. (the transfiguration (Matt 17:5, Mark 9:7 etc)

Deut 18:14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

Moses was the chosen leader and was the main prophet of Israel and was part of the tribe of Levi. The leadership and priesthood and prophethood were joined together in him. Jesus is a priest and King and prophet also.
Moses brought in the old Covenant for Israel and Jesus brought in the New Covenant.
Moses led the Hebrews out of slavery in Egypt and Jesus led us all out of slavery to sin and death.
Moses gave the laws of sacrifice and Jesus was both the priest and the sacrifice.
Moses was first rejected by the Hebrews and went off and got a gentile bride.
It could be said that Jesus was rejected also and has gone off and got a gentile bride (the church).
Once you start thinking of it there are a lot of other similarities also.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see Jesus as the one Moses spoke about. It seems also to be a proclamation about prophets in general.
We can see from this translation that the prophet will be an Israelite, so not Muhammad or The Bab or Baha'u'llah.
Interestingly God says of Jesus to His disciples that they are to listen to Him. (the transfiguration (Matt 17:5, Mark 9:7 etc)

Deut 18:14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”
17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.

Moses was the chosen leader and was the main prophet of Israel and was part of the tribe of Levi. The leadership and priesthood and prophethood were joined together in him. Jesus is a priest and King and prophet also.
Moses brought in the old Covenant for Israel and Jesus brought in the New Covenant.
Moses led the Hebrews out of slavery in Egypt and Jesus led us all out of slavery to sin and death.
Moses gave the laws of sacrifice and Jesus was both the priest and the sacrifice.
Moses was first rejected by the Hebrews and went off and got a gentile bride.
It could be said that Jesus was rejected also and has gone off and got a gentile bride (the church).
Once you start thinking of it there are a lot of other similarities also.

I forgot the Baha'is try to claim the "Comforter" verses as being their prophet. But those verses fit very well with the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost... with one verse even identifying the "Comforter" as being the Holy Spirit.

But that doesn't matter to Baha'is, if it's close... that is good enough. And still I wait for them to show me how the context of what happens during the second and third "Woe" has anything to do with the Bab and Baha'u'llah. All they have is that the third Woe comes quickly after the second Woe. And that is good enough for them.

But what is it that they trying to do? They know none of this proves anything. They know that there's so many ways to interpret these verses. Yet, they keep putting them out there as if suddenly a light bulb is going to go off.

They only reason I ever thought the Baha'i Faith was real is because I didn't know any better. In context almost all of them are shown to be a very forced interpretations. And the more context I look at... the further their interpretations made sense.

Like the one about "They" or "He" will come to you from Assyria? Right off the bat they have to find a way to make Persia into being Assyria. Then Bill Sears with his dark day, stars falling and an earthquake, he finds thing that span decades and take place thousands of miles from the Middle East.

 

[Trailblazer]

I forgot the Baha'is try to claim the "Comforter" verses as being their prophet. But those verses fit very well with the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost... with one verse even identifying the "Comforter" as being the Holy Spirit.

But that doesn't matter to Baha'is, if it's close... that is good enough.

The Holy Spirit came at Pentecost but the Comforter/Spirit of truth is not the Holy Spirit that came at Pentecost. It is the Holy Spirit that came in the last days.

The Holy Spirit that was sent at Pentecost.

Acts 2 King James Version (KJV)
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And then the Holy Spirit was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

The Baha'i belief that Baha'u'llah was the Comforter/Spirit of truth is not close, it is right on the money.

 

[Trailblazer]

Like the one about "They" or "He" will come to you from Assyria? Right off the bat they have to find a way to make Persia into being Assyria.

Micah 7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

How could the return of Christ come from Assyria, given that the Assyrian Empire fell in 612–609 BCE?

AI Overview
Learn more…
The Assyrian Empire fell in 612–609 BCE after being captured and destroyed by a coalition of Medes and Babylonians:

The Book of Micah was written in the 8th century BC by the prophet Micah. The Persian Empire was established in 550 BC.

The Achaemenid Empire or Achaemenian Empire, also known as the Persian Empire or First Persian Empire (/əˈkiːmənɪd/; Old Persian: , Xšāça, lit. 'The Empire' or 'The Kingdom'), was an Iranian empire founded by Cyrus the Great of the Achaemenid dynasty in 550 BC.
Achaemenid Empire - Wikipedia

There was no place called Persia when that Bible verse was written, so why would Micah say he shall come even to thee from Persia?


We don't find a way to make Persia into being Assyria. What was once Assyria later became Persia, and it was Persia when Baha'u'llah came and perfectly fulfilled the prophecy.

Did Assyria become Persia?

AI Overview
Learn more…

Yes, the Persian Empire eventually came to control Assyria after the Neo-Assyrian Empire fell in 609 BC:

Neo-Assyrian Empire
The Neo-Assyrian Empire collapsed after civil wars and an invasion by the Medes, Persians, Scythians, Babylonians, and Cimmerians.

Neo-Babylonian Empire
The Assyrians were under the control of the Neo-Babylonian Empire after the fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire.

Persian Empire
The Persian Empire conquered the Neo-Babylonian Empire in 539 BC. The Assyrians became soldiers for the Persian Empire, including in the Battle of Marathon in 490 BC.

The Assyrian Empire was located in northern Mesopotamia, which is now part of Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Syria, and Turkey. The Assyrians were a Semitic people who created one of the world's oldest civilizations.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Parts of Revelation is Jesus speaking and parts is not.
Psalm 2 is what Jesus has been given and what He will do. If some others are given that authority also OK, the saints are going to be rulers in the world to come it seems.
It is Jesus who does the judging however and treads the winepress alone.(Isa 63:3)

It was regarding the man with the iron rod that Jesus is talking about, which sounds like he is not talking about himself:

Because he doesn't say "I" or "me" as in referring to himself. And he doesn't say "they" as in the saints are going to be the rulers. So how can you say it seems that way. He specifically says "he" and "him" which seems to refer to an individual.

Here it is again.

It sounds like Jesus is not talking about himself ruling the nations with a rod of iron. It does seem like he is talking about someone else. There is usually a difference between saying "I" as in meaning himself and saying "he" and "him" as in meaning someone else.

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

And I will give him the morning star".

So looking at the verse you were showing about the "king of kings" it can be seen as being about the man who rules with an iron rod:

Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

But you are somehow saying it is Jesus. When the verse I showed you seems to say the man with the rod of iron is not Jesus. Because Jesus is not saying himself. So how can it be Jesus?

Here is another Revelation verse about the man with a rod of iron:

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne".

Do you think that verse in Revelation is about Mary the mother of Jesus?

 

[Brian2]

I forgot the Baha'is try to claim the "Comforter" verses as being their prophet. But those verses fit very well with the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost... with one verse even identifying the "Comforter" as being the Holy Spirit.

I think Muhammad also says that the Comforter verses are about him.
But yes the Comforter is called the Holy Spirit. (John 14:26)
Another verse identifies the Comforter as the Spirit of Truth (whom Baha'u'llah said he was) (John 15:26)
The Spirit of Truth is also promised to the disciples whom Jesus was speaking to (John 14: 16,17) so that eliminates Baha'u'llah from being the Spirit of Truth.
This Spirit of Truth was to dwell with Jesus disciples (whom he was speaking to) and be in them. (John 14:16,17) This also eliminates Baha'u'llah from being the Spirit of Truth.
In the Bible the Comforter is the Spirit of Truth and is the Holy Spirit which was given at Pentecost (Acts 2)
It is as if Baha'is cannot or don't want to see these things when they are pointed out. It is hard to believe that they cannot see them. I guess it is a matter of "Who cares what Jesus said when it disagrees with what Baha'u'llah said."
The reality is that they don't respect what the Bible says even if they say they do.

But what is it that they trying to do? They know none of this proves anything. They know that there's so many ways to interpret these verses. Yet, they keep putting them out there as if suddenly a light bulb is going to go off.

They only reason I ever thought the Baha'i Faith was real is because I didn't know any better. In context almost all of them are shown to be a very forced interpretations. And the more context I look at... the further their interpretations made sense.

Bill Sears seemed willing to grasp at straws that in reality did not speak about Baha'u'llah and I think the only reason the Bible is used is to be a draw card for Christians who don't know much about the Bible and may not even check the Bible once they are in the Baha'i fold and invested in it's being right.
Baha'is are willing to believe Bill Sears probably because they also want any little thing, even if it is obviously wrong, to hang on to as evidence for Baha'u'llah.

What TB said about the prophecy of Joel quoted in Acts 2:17, that prophecy was quoted by Peter to explain to the crowd what was happening. He said that the disciples were not drunk but what was happening was the fulfilment of that prophecy of Joel.
But of course TB and other Baha'is will grasp at any straw in the bible even when the plain reading of it shows that they are not only wrong, but that the prophecy would not point to Baha'u'llah. Even if they were right, no Baha'is were filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesying etc in or after Baha'u'llah's time.

 

[Sumadji]

I think Muhammad also says that the Comforter verses are about him.

I don't think Muhammad (pbuh) ever claimed to be a manifestation, or Christ on the same level as Jesus in the way the Baha'i make him out to be. He claimed no special status for himself except as the one who relayed the words of Allah.

Later followers may have made claims about Muhammad as the Comforter or whatever, I don't really know, but Muhammad carefully made no such claims about himself -- unlike Baha'u'llah who lauded himself above all other mortals as beautiful and wonderful as the very vision of godhead and even claimed for himself the 99 Islamic names reserved for Allah alone.

I'm open to correction and education on the subject. Especially the Shia attitude towards their 12 Imams. I know Baha'i will say that all the 'messengers' are equal, but in reality they clearly regard Baha'u'llah in the station of the Father as greater than Jesus Christ the Son, and will take the words of Baha'u'llah above the words of Jesus anyday?

 

[Brian2]

I don't think Muhammad (pbuh) ever claimed to be a manifestation, or Christ on the same level as Jesus in the way the Baha'i make him out to be. He claimed no special status for himself except as the one who relayed the words of Allah.

Yes what is what I thought also. He claimed to be a prophet just the way a prophet is defined in the Bible, a person through whom God sends a message, no divine status at all and not from heaven.

Later followers may have made claims about Muhammad as the Comforter or whatever, I don't really know, but Muhammad carefully made no such claims about himself -- unlike Baha'u'llah who lauded himself above all other mortals as beautiful and wonderful as the very vision of godhead and even claimed for himself the 99 Islamic names reserved for Allah alone.

I'm open to correction and education on the subject. Especially the Shia attitude towards their 12 Imams. I know Baha'i will say that all the 'messengers' are equal, but in reality they clearly regard Baha'u'llah in the station of the Father as greater than Jesus Christ the Son, and will take the words of Baha'u'llah above the words of Jesus anyday?

I would say you are right. I cannot find any direct quote from the Quran saying that Muhammad is the Comforter and different Islamic sites I visit are just academic arguments for or against the idea that Muhammad is the Comforter. IOW it is not something that Muhammad claimed.
I agree also that Baha'u'llah claimed a lot for himself, including titles reserved for God alone.