True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[CG Didymus]

I think Muhammad also says that the Comforter verses are about him.
But yes the Comforter is called the Holy Spirit. (John 14:26)

I can understand why Baha'is think that it is Baha'u'llah. They need anything they can get to make the "return of Christ" their prophet and not Jesus himself. But doesn't Islam have Jesus coming back with the Mahdi? Maybe Firedragon or Link can clarify it. Here what I found...

Sunni and Shia Muslims hold that Isa (Jesus) and the Mahdi will be present at the same time...​

In the Bible the Comforter is the Spirit of Truth and is the Holy Spirit which was given at Pentecost (Acts 2)

The NT is about Jesus. It is the story about Jesus as told by his followers. TB put out a thread about there not being "eyewitnesses" in those stories. Maybe, but for sure, by Baha'i standards, it was not written by a supposed "infallible" person... a "manifestation" of God. So, that right there makes it less than God's Word for Baha'is. Yet, their leaders make it sound like Baha'is do take it as God's Word... at least parts of it. Which conveniently makes it okay to accept and reject whatever they want. And also, to interpret it anyway they want, since their guy is a manifestation, so whatever he says... is the infallible Word of God.

Bill Sears seemed willing to grasp at straws that in reality did not speak about Baha'u'llah

Any straw he could find. But, he is not the prophet. He is not an "infallible" person in the Baha'i Faith. And he's depending on the King James Bible as being a perfect translation. But is it? Other translation have "They" instead of "He" in Micah. And here's a translation that is completely different than the KJV...

Micah 7:11-13​

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Complete Jewish Bible​

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11 That will be the day for rebuilding your walls,
a day for expanding your territory,
12 a day when [your] people will come [back] to you
from Ashur and from the cities of Egypt,
from Egypt and from as far as the Euphrates River,
and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
13 The earth will be desolate for those living in it,
as a result of their deeds.

I don't think Muhammad (pbuh) ever claimed to be a manifestation, or Christ on the same level as Jesus in the way the Baha'i make him out to be.

That's something that I think is very important. Did anyone, other than the Baha'is, say Moses? Or Muhammad? Or Abraham? Or Buddha? Was a manifestation? It's a Baha'i thing. It sounds kind of reasonable, but is it what's really going on? That there is One God out there that kept sending his special creations, manifestations, to teach people the truth?

To me, it looks more like everybody invented their rules, their Gods, and their religions. Like how do Baha'is explain this...

AI Overview​

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The Code of Hammurabi originated in the Babylonian region of Mesopotamia and was created by King Hammurabi, who ruled from 1792–1750 BCE:

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The code was inscribed on a large, black stone stele (pillar) in the temple of Marduk, the national god of Babylonia.​

And who was Marduk?

AI Overview​

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In the Bible, Marduk is a false god and the chief Babylonian deity who is conquered by the God of Israel​

Yes what is what I thought also. He claimed to be a prophet just the way a prophet is defined in the Bible, a person through whom God sends a message, no divine status at all and not from heaven.

If Muhammad didn't claim to be a "manifestation", why do Baha'is make him one? I think it's only to support their belief in "progressive" revelation. And if they can convince people that progressive revelation is true, then their prophet, Baha'u'llah is the logical next "manifestation" in the long line of manifestations.

And there are similar things in some religions. Jews have a progression of Judges and prophets. And in some Hindu sects there are several incarnations of the Lord Vishnu that are to come as needed. Similar, but not quite the same.

But close enough to make it sound reasonable. A few little tweaks here in the various Scriptures, and the Baha'is can show that it makes perfect sense... that it is how things work. But does it make "perfect" sense? Only by following Baha'i interpretations of the Bible and all the other Scriptures. Meaning... parts of the Scriptures have to be shown to be wrong or misinterpreted in some ways. And that's not "perfect". That's being very selective in what is true and what's not true in those Scriptures.

 

[Sumadji]

But does it make "perfect" sense?

No. It's absurd. But nobody can say to somebody else: "How can you believe that?"

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't think Muhammad (pbuh) ever claimed to be a manifestation, or Christ on the same level as Jesus in the way the Baha'i make him out to be. He claimed no special status for himself except as the one who relayed the words of Allah

Yes a Messenger from God, which Muhammad in the Quran informed the Christians, is exactly who Jesus christ was.

Baha'u'llah has brought another level of understanding as to the station of the Messengers. Baha'u'llah offeres even though in the material world some Messengers seemed to have a greater station than another Messengers, that in reality they are all One, as they are all of the same Holy Spirit.

It is God's Will that they One and all impart to humanity, in the light given of God for the age they lived.

Spoiler: Applicable explanation

It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established.…

The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfills a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”

— Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXII

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

Yes a Messenger from God, which Muhammad in the Quran informed the Christians, is exactly who Jesus christ was.

Baha'u'llah has brought another level of understanding as to the station of the Messengers. Baha'u'llah offeres even though in the material world some Messengers seemed to have a greater station than another Messengers, that in reality they are all One, as they are all of the same Holy Spirit.

It is God's Will that they One and all impart to humanity, in the light given of God for the age they lived.

Spoiler: Applicable explanation

It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established.…

The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfills a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”

— Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXII

Regards Tony

That's waffle that avoids the issue. Muhammad (pbuh) never claimed to be a 'manifestation' or beautiful and superb beyond all other mortals. He did not claim to himself the 99 divine names. He did not claim equality with Jesus

 

[Sumadji]

Muhammad absorbed and reflected a fringe gnostic view of Jesus and not much of significance overall -- that indicates he never knew about the New Testament Jesus, or very little, imo

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's waffle that avoids the issue. Muhammad (pbuh) never claimed to be a 'manifestation' or beautiful and superb beyond all other mortals. He did not claim to himself the 99 divine names. He did not claim equality with Jesus

You are mistaken, Quran Verse 7:158 is one

(Sahih International "Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided."

Muhammad confirms that Jesus is also a Messenger, just as Muhammad is.

61:6 And ˹remember˺ when Jesus, son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel! I am truly Allah’s messenger to you, confirming the Torah which came before me, and giving good news of a messenger after me whose name will be Aḥmad.”1 Yet when the Prophet came to them with clear proofs, they said, “This is pure magic.”

There are also more verse to consider.

As for all the Prophets, one has ro pursue the Hadiths.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think Muhammad (pbuh) ever claimed to be a manifestation, or Christ on the same level as Jesus in the way the Baha'i make him out to be. He claimed no special status for himself except as the one who relayed the words of Allah.

I am a Baha'i and I don't think that Muhammad was on the same level as Jesus. Most Baha'is conflate the Manifestations of God as if they are all the same. They might be the same in station, but they are not equal in perfections, nor are they equal in the importance of the missions that God gave them to do.

“Know that the attributes of perfection, the splendor of the divine bounties, and the lights of inspiration are visible and evident in all the Holy Manifestations; but the glorious Word of God, Christ, and the Greatest Name, Bahá’u’lláh, are manifestations and evidences which are beyond imagination, for They possess all the perfections of the former Manifestations; and more than that, They possess some perfections which make the other Manifestations dependent upon Them. So all the Prophets of Israel were centers of inspiration; Christ also was a receiver of inspiration, but what a difference between the inspiration of the Word of God and the revelations of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Elijah!”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 146-150

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Muhammad absorbed and reflected a fringe gnostic view of Jesus and not much of significance overall -- that indicates he never knew about the New Testament Jesus, or very little, imo

I would offer Muhammad not only knew Jesus, but was One with Jesus as the Christ.

The issue was, and indeed still is, that Christians think they know Jesus Chrost better than God does, it is God that sends the Messengers.

Humility in God was eroded by a doctrine called the Trinity, a doctrine that God asked the Christians, via Muhammad, to cease with.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

Humility in God was eroded by a doctrine called the Trinity, a doctrine that God asked the Christians, via Muhammad, to cease with

Muhammad got the Trinity all mixed up with Mary, whom he got confused with Miryam the sister of Moses and Aaron in the Tanakh.

Baha'u'lla wasn't humble. He was a complete narcissist.

So ...

We agree to differ? No?

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'lla wasn't humble. He was a complete narcissist.

Do you have any evidence that supports that belief, or is it just a feeling that you have?

 

[Sumadji]

Do you have any evidence that supports that belief, or is it just a feeling that you have?

Well, he describes himself in quite glowing terms? To say the least?

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, he describes himself in quite glowing terms? To say the least?

Can you give me some examples? I'm open.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am a Baha'i and I don't think that Muhammad was on the same level as Jesus. Most Baha'is conflate the Manifestations of God as if they are all the same. They might be the same in station, but they are not equal in perfections, nor are they equal in the importance of the missions that God gave them to do.

In my reply above, under the spoiler, is the applicable passage reflecting your thoughts.

In the end, I see it is less helpful to expound on the differences, I see the fruit lays in Oneness and doing away with the realm of distinction, looking beyond the devision.

"...These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by Imám ‘Alí. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures..." Baha'u'llah

The station of distinction is acknowledged by all Baha'is, most do not want to keep repeating the station of distinction, as without embracing the foundation of the Oneness of the Manifestations, they will always remain divided by the distinction.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That's waffle that avoids the issue. Muhammad (pbuh) never claimed to be a 'manifestation' or beautiful and superb beyond all other mortals. He did not claim to himself the 99 divine names. He did not claim equality with Jesus

There a lot of interchanging between the words "manifestation" and "messenger". Since angels means "messengers", then in the Bible there are a lot of "messengers". But what about "manifestations"?

The Manifestations of God are appearances of the Divine Spirit or Holy Spirit in a series of personages, and as such, they perfectly reflect the attributes of the divine into the human world...​

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In the Baha'i Faith, it is believed that the Manifestations of God are the only channel for humanity to know about God...​

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They act as perfect mirrors reflecting the attributes of God into the physical world...​

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The Manifestations of God are not seen as incarnations of God as God cannot be divided and does not descend to the condition of his creatures, but they are also not seen as ordinary mortals...​

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A common Baháʼí analogy used to explain the relationship between the Manifestation of God and God is that of a perfect mirror. In the analogy, God is likened to the Sun – the source of physical life on earth. The spirit and attributes of God are likened to the rays of the Sun, and the Manifestations of God are likened to perfect mirrors reflecting the rays of the Sun.[2] Thus, the Manifestations of God act as pure mirrors that reflect the attributes of God onto this material world...​

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They are understood to have existed in the spiritual world prior to their physical birth in this life. They are also seen to have innate, divinely revealed knowledge and absolute knowledge of the physical world.​

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Did Muhammad claim any of this about himself? How about Abraham or Moses? How about Buddha. Jesus, yes. And Krishna even more. He was a God.

As far as I know, the Baha'i Faith is the only religion that makes them all "manifestations" of God.

Muhammad absorbed and reflected a fringe gnostic view of Jesus and not much of significance overall -- that indicates he never knew about the New Testament Jesus, or very little, imo

From Christians, that is what I've heard. So, I've asked Baha'is about the story about the young Jesus making clay birds and making them come to life. True or not true? Then... whether the Quran story about the birth of Jesus is true... That Mary gave birth to him under a date palm? Which is a lot different than the stories in the Gospels.

But, since Baha'is go with the Quran over the Bible most of the time, I was wondering what they believe about those things. I don't think they've answered me yet.

Muhammad confirms that Jesus is also a Messenger, just as Muhammad is.

Again... "messenger". Is there a concept like the Baha'i "manifestation" in Islam? And, if so, does Muhammad claim it about himself?

 

[CG Didymus]

The station of distinction is acknowledged by all Baha'is, most do not want to keep repeating the station of distinction, as without embracing the foundation of the Oneness of the Manifestations, they will always remain divided by the distinction.

By the time Baha'is are done with rewriting the Gospels, what is left of Jesus that makes him more distinct than anybody else?

So, yes... Baha'is say he was born of a virgin. What else? What do Baha'is believe he said or did that makes him so special to be called a "manifestation of God"? Did he bring a new set of social laws? Did he bring a book? Unless you count that a book was written about him.

 

[Trailblazer]

There a lot of interchanging between the words "manifestation" and "messenger". Since angels means "messengers", then in the Bible there are a lot of "messengers". But what about "manifestations"?

In the Bible, there are a lot of Prophets, but not all of them are messengers or manifestations of God.

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

Twelve table talks given by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in ‘Akká
The Three Kinds of Prophets

Twelve Table Talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká | Bahá’í Reference Library

Twelve Table Talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1907.

www.bahai.org

 

[Trailblazer]

By the time Baha'is are done with rewriting the Gospels, what is left of Jesus that makes him more distinct than anybody else?

Baha'is do not rewrite the Gospels. We just don't believe that 'everything' in the Gospels is true.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, yes... Baha'is say he was born of a virgin. What else? What do Baha'is believe he said or did that makes him so special to be called a "manifestation of God"? Did he bring a new set of social laws? Did he bring a book? Unless you count that a book was written about him.

Through Christ's advent the world of existence was renewed, a new cycle of religion was inaugurated, a new religion was revealed, souls were quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light.

Christ did not write a book, but a book was written about Him.

All of the above make Christ a manifestation of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

By the time Baha'is are done with rewriting the Gospels, what is left of Jesus that makes him more distinct than anybody else?

So, yes... Baha'is say he was born of a virgin. What else? What do Baha'is believe he said or did that makes him so special to be called a "manifestation of God"? Did he bring a new set of social laws? Did he bring a book? Unless you count that a book was written about him.

Now, by the time Christians get done writing about him Jesus becomes a God and the only way to get your sins forgiven. That Jesus conquered death and Satan and is coming back to destroy all evil kings and rulers. That Jesus walked on water, cast out demons and raised the dead. A Jesus that Baha'is believe is make-believe. A Jesus invented by his followers. Who made up and embellished stories about him. That is the Jesus that changed the world.

How and why would the Baha'i version of Jesus have done anything? Why would he even have qualified to have been the Jewish Messiah?

He didn't do the things that the Messiah was supposed to when he was here, but Christians believe he will do them when he returns. But Baha'is claim that Jesus is not going to return. So, Jesus, didn't fulfill the prophecies the first time and, since Baha'is don't believe he is coming back, he never will fulfill all of the Messianic prophecies.

So again, what did the Baha'i version of Jesus really accomplish?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Muhammad got the Trinity all mixed up with Mary, whom he got confused with Miryam the sister of Moses and Aaron in the Tanakh.

Baha'u'lla wasn't humble. He was a complete narcissist.

So ...

We agree to differ? No?

I can offer, that those statements, are very unhealthy for your spirit.

Regards Tony