True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah tells us that Jesus is a Manifestation of God like Adam, Noah, Moses, Muhammad, the Bab etc. That is stabbing Jesus in the back by telling lies about Him.

That is telling the truth about Jesus. He was a Manifestation of God just like all the others.

Baha’u’llah sternly warned us never to make any distinction between any of the Messengers of God (who are the Manifestations of His Cause) because they all arise to proclaim the same religion, since there is only one eternal religion of God. Baha’u’llah wrote that the works and acts of all the Manifestations of God were all ordained by God, a reflection of His Will and Purpose, meaning that all the religions are equally true and all the Messengers are equal in stature. Christianity would have been a true religion if men had not messed it all up. Now it is a false religion.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 59-60

Baha'u'llah also tells us that Jesus dispensation ended. That is telling lies about Jesus.

That is telling the truth about Jesus. His Dispensation is over, done. It was not Baha'u'llah who said that. It was Shoghi Effendi.

“In conclusion of this theme, I feel, it should be stated that the Revelation identified with Bahá’u’lláh abrogates unconditionally all the Dispensations gone before it.” (God Passes By, p. 100)

Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103

Any bright spirit that appears before you or appeared before Baha'u'llah and says that the Bible is wrong, is probably Satan or a demon. Bu

Baha'u'llah did not say that the Bible is wrong. In some cases it is wrong but in most cases it has been misinterpreted by Christians.
Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha straightened out its true meaning. Thanks guys!

 

[Trailblazer]

But I even showed you places where Jesus even uses pretty much those words, I am coming back.

Jesus never said "I am coming back to this world." That is only what you think those verses mean.
Jesus said he was NO MORE in the world in several verses, and that means Jesus is never coming back.

And I showed you where Jesus (the Son of Man) tells us that He would come and judge the earth,,,,,,,,,,, Jesus having been given all judgement makes this Son of Man Jesus.

Jesus was given all judgement during the Christian dispensation, but that dispensation is over, as I just said in the previous post.
Jesus is not coming back to to anything. Jesus is in heaven and there he will stay forever, with all the other messengers of God who have passed on.

Somebody else claiming to be this "Son of Man" means nothing, and means even less when he comes and does no gather all the living and dead before him, while he is seated on his throne, and judge them.

Baha'u'llah never claimed to be the Son of Man. Nobody is going to gather all the living and dead while he is seated on his throne and judge them. That false belief is the result of misinterpreting the Bible, believing the meaning to be literal when it is figurative.

Well you just refuse to hear anything except what Jesus said and you even deny that and alter the meaning when it does not match Baha'i teachings.

It is not me who denies the clear meaning of what Jesus said, it is you who does that, when it does not match Christian teachings.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it can't be used for either proving Baha'u'llah true or Ahmad false because they both had the same thing happen in their time.

I did not say that it can be used for either proving Baha'u'llah true or Ahmad false.

That being one prophecy. Have you actually looked to see if Ahmad possibly fulfilled any other prophecies?

No, I haven't, because I know that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ. Ahmad can't fulfill prophecies that were already fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. That's logically impossible.

Anyone after Baha'u'llah within a thousand year period is a lying imposter. That is his claim.

"Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor". Baha'u'llah.

Was Baha'u'llah claiming the thousand year reign of Christ:
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years". Revelation.

Claiming the thousand years doesn't prove Baha'u'llah Christ or a true prophet. He could just be a lying imposter himself.

That's true. Any man can be a lying imposter.

If you actually knew a difference you would clearly say it. Because the reason you show would also show why Baha'u'llah is a true prophet.

The difference is who he was as a person and what he taught.
I believe Ahmad is the false prophet because of who he was and what he taught, which I believe is false.

I believe that Baha'u'llah was a true prophet because of who He was as a person and what He taught, which I believe is true.

Do you think a false prophet could also say no true prophet could come for a thousand years.

A false prophet could say anything he wanted to say.

So you are calling Ahmad a false prophet and a liar because of something Baha'u'llah said. But Baha'u''llah could be a false prophet and a liar.

No, that is not the only reason I think Ahmad was a false prophet. I explained the reason above.

1. Are you possibly making a mistake thinking religions get replaced rather than revived?

2. Why does anything Ahmad says need to be in accord with Bahai view?

One of them (or both of them) would be a false prophet.

No, I don't think I am making a mistake because it makes no sense to me that an old religion needs to be revived.
No, nothing Ahmad says needs to be in accord with the Baha'i view. You can choose whichever view you want, or choose neither one.

Any man can be a false prophet.
As such, one of them (or both of them) could be a false prophet, but both of them cannot be a true prophet.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are talking as if you know something but you are not actually saying anything.

Did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad not do any work or actions?

Can you be more specific or not?

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit

Yes, Ahmad did work and actions, but I don't think they yielded good fruits.

Something true prophets have which false prophets don't have are good fruits.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[Pete in Panama]

It is hard to say where and when I learned the meaning of certain words. I imagine most of it happened at school.
With "clouds" when I look it up online I see 2 definitions:

1. a visible mass of condensed watery vapour floating in the atmosphere, typically high above the general level of the ground.
   "the sun had disappeared behind a cloud"
   2.used to refer to a state or cause of gloom, suspicion, trouble, or worry.
   "the only cloud on the immediate horizon is raising a mortgage"
   
   
   Since the Bible, in the places I am talking about has "clouds of heaven" and "heaven" in the Greek is the same word for "sky", the meaning of "clouds" in the prophecies is plain and would have meant the same thing 2000 years ago as it does now and any time in between. As for "resurrection" I think I am just using the meaning of "resurrection" that was current 2000 years ago. This should be the meaning that was meant in the New Testament. Word meanings do however have a habit of changing over time. This could happen quite naturally and gradually over time or, as seems to be the case with Baha'u'llah, he has just decided on what he wants certain words to mean and his authority, as leader of a religious group has caused those words to take on a certain meaning within the group, which they would not have done otherwise. This meaning can sometimes spread to the general public and become another official definition, as the use of and insistence of the meaning by the group forces the issue onto everyone.

We're not quite communicating here, first what I got from you was a clear definition from the Bible, now we've changed to something else like Marriam-Webster. What I'm getting from you now is a far more flexible understanding based on other unnamed sources.

OK, sounds good. Enjoy!

 

[Pete in Panama]

No. We cant agree with different meanings. There is only one meaning at all times because the meaning is exactly as said. There is no twisting any words beyond what exactly is said. ...

First we got together on the fact that saying that clouds could be--

...a chariot because they are both words that share the same position. Same position as the other Bible words I am showing Ephraim, Dove, Bow, Sun, and Mountain etc. They are lawfully interchangeable words because they are words of the same position.

--and now I'm getting from you that there's only one meaning of what the Bible says. My thinking is that there are many good understandings of what the Bible says but what I can not handle is what appears as contradictions.

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah tells us that Jesus is a Manifestation of God like Adam, Noah, Moses, Muhammad, the Bab etc.

Here's part of a definition of a manifestation of God is supposed to do and be like...

The Manifestations of God are not seen as an incarnation of God, but they are also not seen as an ordinary mortal. Instead, the Bahá’í concept of the Manifestation of God emphasizes simultaneously the humanity of that intermediary and the divinity in the way they show forth the will, knowledge and attributes of God; thus they have both human and divine stations. Among other religions, this view most closely resembles the Christian view of Christ, as well as the Shi'a understanding of the prophets and Imams. The Manifestations of God act as a pure mirror (see below) that reflect the attributes of God onto this material world.[3]​

​

According to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, the divine Manifestations of God must be distinguished above any other person in every aspect and qualification, in order that they can effectively train and educate people.[4] In another place he says, "the essential requirement and qualification of Prophethood is the training and guidance of the people."[5]​

​

In essence, the Manifestations of God are seen as Divine Educators, who are raised up by God with the purpose of uplifting mankind and expressing His will. In expressing God's intent, these Manifestations are seen to establish religion in the world and each one brings a book, and reveals teachings and laws according to the time and place which they appear.​

​

Bahá’u’lláh referred to several historical figures as Manifestations. They include Adam, Noah, Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Báb, as well as Himself, were included in this definition. Thus religious history is interpreted as a series of dispensations, where each Manifestation brings a somewhat broader and more advanced revelation, suited for the time and place in which it was expressed.​

​

I still ask Baha'is, how does Adam, Noah, Abraham, and in some ways even Moses fit this description? All of them are flawed, normal humans. Some of them, in spite of their flaws, listened to God and obeyed Him. None of them brought a book, and which religion did any of them "found"? The closest would be Moses, because he brought the Law.

For me, the Baha'is need a progressive chain of religious teachings to have been going on, but there are too many giant leaps between all the other religions and Judaism. And one of the biggest is between Judaism and Christianity. It's not a progression... it's a major change.

Now between Judaism, with its laws, and Islam and the Baha'i Faith, it's close to a progression. The new religion brings new laws, and each brought a new book and religion.

But Christianity doesn't fit in there very well. New laws are the focus. It is showing a person can get their sins forgiven and get saved from eternity in hell.

 

[Trailblazer]

I still ask Baha'is, how does Adam, Noah, Abraham, and in some ways even Moses fit this description? All of them are flawed, normal humans. Some of them, in spite of their flaws, listened to God and obeyed Him. None of them brought a book, and which religion did any of them "found"? The closest would be Moses, because he brought the Law.

According to what were Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses flawed, normal humans?
The Bible is not a source of accurate information about anything. It is a flawed book written by fallible human beings.
There are some truths in the Bible, but the truth is mixed up with falsehoods, so it is not reliable.

 

[CG Didymus]

My thinking is that there are many good understandings of what the Bible says but what I can not handle is what appears as contradictions.

Yes, contradictions are a problem. Yet, it is the Baha'is that are the ones contradicting the Bible and the NT sometimes.

The main one I complain about is the resurrection. Sure, it doesn't make literal sense these days. But what about in those days? Dying and rising Gods were in the beliefs of other religions in ancient times.

That's why I think that the Gospel writers meant for their story about the resurrection to be taken literally. It makes Jesus a virtual God/man equal or better than the God/men in the other religions of the time.

Now? Forget about it. Baha'is want to say it didn't happen? Fine.

But why try to say the story of the resurrection was always meant to be symbolic? That the Early Church leaders misinterpreted those stories?

Why would all four Gospel writers make up a symbolic story that sounds exactly as if they talking about an event that really happened?

However, if you say all four writers passed on a made up story that Jesus had risen from the dead, that I could believe.

Saying the writers embellished the story, I can believe that. Like saying that it went dark and people came out of their graves... That God spoke from heaven... Or like the stories about things that happened earlier. A star moving in the sky... Jesus walking on water and feeding 5000 people with a few loaves of bread and some fish. The stories could easily have been embellished.

But a story that has a complex set of hidden meanings? Like with Abdul Baha's interpretation that the disciples were all feeling bad, but after three days, they remembered the things Jesus had taught them and went out and started teaching those things and thus, brought the "body" of Jesus, or the "Church", back to life.

Really? That's the true meaning? All four writers say that Jesus came back to life, spoke with then, ate with them, let them touch him... but the true meaning was that the physical body of Jesus was dead and his spirit rose and his disciples remembered the wonderful things he had said and went out and started spreading the word?

Sorry, but that's way harder for me to believe than if the story was literally true.

Now, if I'm off a little on the Baha'i belief, could you tell me what Baha'is really believe? Is it as Abdul Baha' says?

 

[CG Didymus]

I still ask Baha'is, how does Adam, Noah, Abraham, and in some ways even Moses fit this description?

That's the question... Why do the Baha'is claim these people were manifestations?

And I'm fine with the stories about them in the Bible to be fictional. But... How does that help the Baha'is? What is the "true" story about them that qualifies them as being manifestations? What book did they bring? What religion did they start? And how were any of them considered to be "perfectly" polished mirrors reflecting God?

Now when I first was told about the Baha'i Faith, this wasn't a problem. I thought, "Sure, a progression... Abraham to Moses to Jesus and so on. Sure, no problem." But now, it is a problem. And I didn't have to dig to deep to find problems with what Baha'is were claiming.

Adam disobeyed God and, for me, is a mythical character anyway. Noah, Abraham and Moses? None of them were perfect. They were normal humans. And again, probably fictional or, if based on a real person, their story greatly enhanced with fictional things added in. Like with Moses... his staff turns into a snake? And the story of Noah? Forget about it... totally myth.

Yet, the Baha'i Faith treats them as if they were not only real people... but manifestations of God?

Why? The only reason I can see is that the Baha'i Faith has to show a progression. But this is taking four people from the same religion. And then not even believing the Bible story about their lives?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I did not say that it can be used for either proving Baha'u'llah true or Ahmad false.

No, I haven't, because I know that Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ. Ahmad can't fulfill prophecies that were already fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. That's logically impossible.

That's true. Any man can be a lying imposter.

The difference is who he was as a person and what he taught.
I believe Ahmad is the false prophet because of who he was and what he taught, which I believe is false.

I believe that Baha'u'llah was a true prophet because of who He was as a person and what He taught, which I believe is true.

A false prophet could say anything he wanted to say.

No, that is not the only reason I think Ahmad was a false prophet. I explained the reason above.

No, I don't think I am making a mistake because it makes no sense to me that an old religion needs to be revived.
No, nothing Ahmad says needs to be in accord with the Baha'i view. You can choose whichever view you want, or choose neither one.

Any man can be a false prophet.
As such, one of them (or both of them) could be a false prophet, but both of them cannot be a true prophet.

@WonderingWorrier I offer a link, there is a series of a few talks in the links following the talk referenced below. You can read and make an honest and just determination of what is offered about Ahmadi.

Interaction with The People of Bahá: A response to Ahmadi Answers

This is the third response in the series of responses to a video by Ahmadi Answers attacking the Bahá’í Faith. To read the first piece, click here. To read the second piece, click here. To re…

bahaipen.wordpress.com

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

Yet, the Baha'i Faith treats them as if they were not only real people

Because that is what the Quran says about them ... they were real living prophets. Also Job, Jonah, Lot and others

 

[Sumadji]

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas begins by naming them all, so they must have been real people ...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Adam disobeyed God and, for me, is a mythical character anyway.

I see that is an incorrect interpretation of the Metephor of the creation story.

It is like thinking the Australian Dreamtime stories of creation are literal.

The stories recorded of Adam are obviously metephor, one of them being about the struggle man faces with the choice of God given good choices, over their own material based evil choices.

Adam 100% existed and was a Messenger from God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas begins by naming them all, so they must have been real people ...

There has been many Messengers given by God to humanity, all guven as men born in that age. Many past civilisations have existed, many whos records have been lost in time and events that have wiped the evidence and memory of them from history.

"... When a cycle comes to a close, a new one is inaugurated, and the previous cycle, on account of the momentous events which transpire, vanishes so entirely from memory as to leave behind no record or trace. Thus, as you are aware, we have no record of twenty thousand years ago, even though … life on this earth is very ancient—not one or two hundred thousand, or even one or two million years old: It is ancient indeed, and the records and traces of ancient times have been entirely obliterated.

Each of the Manifestations of God has likewise a cycle wherein His religion and His law are in full force and effect. When His cycle is ended through the advent of a new Manifestation, a new cycle begins. Thus, cycles are inaugurated, concluded, and renewed, until a universal cycle is completed in the world of existence and momentous events transpire which efface every record and trace of the past … – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, newly revised edition, pp. 182-183.

Makes one ponder the fragility of our existence in a small speck of time.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Now? Forget about it. Baha'is want to say it didn't happen? Fine.

The resurrection happened CG, it is only the interpretation of scriptures about how that happened that is the topic of discussion.

The Bible has ample guidance for us to consider as to if it was spiritual or physical.

If it was physical, the Jesus shared that passage to heaven with other Messengers, from other times, one can not dismiss those stories as false.

If it is spiritual in the spiritual form given of God, after death of the flesh, then all the Messengers share the same ascension and we too share in it if we are born again into the Spirit that is of God, if we transcend the spirit of the flesh, the human spirit.

It is a choice and a chosen lifestyle in the guidance and laws of that Spirit.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

@WonderingWorrier I offer a link, there is a series of a few talks in the links following the talk referenced below. You can read and make an honest and just determination of what is offered about Ahmadi.

Interaction with The People of Bahá: A response to Ahmadi Answers

This is the third response in the series of responses to a video by Ahmadi Answers attacking the Bahá’í Faith. To read the first piece, click here. To read the second piece, click here. To re…

bahaipen.wordpress.com

Regards Tony

I did not know about any of this but Ahmad is much worse than I thought.

 

[CG Didymus]

Because that is what the Quran says about them ... they were real living prophets. Also Job, Jonah, Lot and others

But Baha'is don't make Job, Jonah, Lot and the others into "manifestations" of God. Does the Quran?

Now I wouldn't be surprised if it makes Abraham and Moses the Islamic equivalent to a manifestation, but all of them?

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas begins by naming them all, so they must have been real people ...

But does it say the story, as told in the Bible about their lives, is true? I know in one of Baha'u'llah's books he writes about Noah and says nothing about the flood and the animals. So, for a Baha'i, whatever Baha'u'llah wrote about him, becomes the truth.

So, what happens, the Bible story becomes symbolic and the Baha'i story the literal true story.

For me... It can be true. It can be myth. I do believe, for the Jews especially, the stories have a spiritual message. And... I guess for the Baha'is there is a special message too. But they change the story to fit a spiritual message that works for their beliefs.

Oh, and I think it's myth, because of things like talking snakes, people getting turned into pillars of salt, seas parting, people getting carried off in fiery chariots, people being virgin born, walking on water and rising from the dead.

Great spiritual messages in the stories. But I don't change the story as told and give some symbolic meaning and then claim that is the true meaning of the story. Like with Jesus... the story says he rose from the dead in a body that had flesh and bone. The new improved Baha'i version has Jesus dead and his flesh long gone.

Anyway, you seem to know a lot about Islam, Christianity and the Baha'i Faith, what are your thoughts on all this?

 

[CG Didymus]

The resurrection happened

Yeah, you believe it happened as told by Abdul Baha'. But not the way it was told in the Gospels. For Baha'is, that belief can't be true.

In one of these threads a Christian is arguing that Baha'is change what the Bible and NT says. Yeah, I think Baha'is do. And by doing that it makes Christianity very, very wrong in its beliefs.

Which sure sounds like there is only one correct way to believe in the Bible and the other Scriptures... and that is to believe in them as interpreted by the Baha'i Faith.

Would you agree with that? Or do some religions interpret their Scriptures correctly and in-line with the Baha'i Faith?

 

[Pete in Panama]

... it is the Baha'is that are the ones contradicting the Bible and the NT...

Huh. It's my understanding that a core Baha'i belief is that the Bible is the Word of God. Sure, there are lots of places in the Bible that are hard to understand, I can say that about my text book on differential equations.

Can you post some quote from the a Baha'i recognized source that says the Bible is wrong?