True Liberty Requires Submission.

[TransmutingSoul]

Submission to Baha'u'llah's commandments is very much Baha'i submission, perhaps you accidentally included this quote in your OP;
"True liberty consisteth in man's submission unto My commandments"~Baha'u'llah?

As for liberty in the free world, the law of the land based on rational legal processes seems sufficient. I don't see commandments as having anything to do with it.

In my opinion.

It is obvious that humanity at the current time will not choose this option, so the important thing to note in this OP is that this in not directed at the Baha'i Faith, but at a conversation as to what is a productive and useful "Liberty".

I used that quote as a guide, not as the direction of this OP.

That submission is found in all Faiths.

So do how do you see Liberty?

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

I used that quote as a guide, not as the direction of this OP.

That submission is found in all Faiths.

So do how do you see Liberty?

Regards Tony

I see it as useful within the bounds of Australian law.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see it as useful within the bounds of Australian law.

In my opinion.

I was attempting to look global with this OP. I see Australia has been a Lucky Country way too long, it has given the population a subjective view of liberty, based in many years of having it all handed ro us on a plate, in the process we have failed to consider how we are part of a global economy, and we have not fully recognised how liberty suppressed the original inhabitants of this Nation.

Now, if Australia is to participate in a global society, what liberties do you see we may need to reconsider?

Regards Tony

 

[Wildswanderer]

What has liberal though brought to Christain thinking? Do you see it has all been beneficial.

What about "Prosperity Gospel", is that freedom?

I agree with you 100% that the Spirit can set us free, but I personally I see it can also be used to bind us to this world.

Regards Tony

I don't know what you by liberal thought. That can mean about anything you want it to
The Holy Spirit sets us free from our old sin nature to the degree that we listen.

 

[Bird123]

This post is founded on my understanding of these passage found in the Baha'i Writings.

"True liberty consisteth in man's submission unto My commandments, little as ye know it." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 335

It is obvious that humanity at the current time will not choose this option, so the important thing to note in this OP is that this in not directed at the Baha'i Faith, but at a conversation as to what is a productive and useful "Liberty".

It is observable that humanity already uses submission as a tool in liberated societies, as there needs to be a basic structure of law that gives boundaries to Liberty, as Liberty is also a path to destruction.

This is thought on this other aspect of liberty.

"Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench. Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 335-336

We can see evidence of this in the world news.

This link is to other quotes on both freedom and liberty.

Freedom | Bahá’í Quotes

Your Thoughts?

Regards Tony

It is not submission that brings Liberty. Understanding is what will bring Liberty. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will choose the best choices. When one truly understands all the petty things mankind holds so dear for what these things really are, those petty things will no longer be viable choices one could make. This is the point at Liberty. Laws will no longer be needed.

One will never be capable of creating a Heavenly state for oneself and others until there is Understanding.

The good news is that there is no time limit on learning. There are many many lifetimes ahead before the physical road comes to an end. One will just have to muddle through until then.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[The Hammer]

So world we then consider who is to set what is seen as a base desires, the lines that cannot be crossed!

Would that be a logical step?

Regards Tony

Basal desires are easy, those are that which helps or hinders us, to the detriment of others.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't know what you by liberal thought. That can mean about anything you want it to
The Holy Spirit sets us free from our old sin nature to the degree that we listen.

There was an example in my reply.

Is Prosperity Gospel a freedom from old sin and nature?

Is that not a good example of when Liberty is taken beyond the boundaries of Faith?

Regards Tony

 

[Audie]

I see it as useful within the bounds of Australian law.

In my opinion.

"Imo"

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Basal desires are easy, those are that which helps or hinders us, to the detriment of others.

Would that not be subjective to culture and our nature and nurture?

Just for an example, some nations liberty allows for recreational drug use, others that is covered by prohibitions.

Thus globally how do we approach these issues?

Regards Tony

 

[Wildswanderer]

There was an example in my reply.

Is Prosperity Gospel a freedom from old sin and nature?

Is that not a good example of when Liberty is taken beyond the boundaries of Faith?

Regards Tony

I don't know. I think God provides for those who trust him. I don't believe he will necessarily make us wealthy but to the degree that we use what he provides in a good way he will bless us with more. If that's the prosperity gospel I agree with it.
If we are asking for selfish reasons obviously we aren't acting from the Holy Spirit. Liberty is from sin not liberty to sin without consequences.

 

[The Hammer]

Would that not be subjective to culture and our nature and nurture?

That's exactly my point. We all start from somewhere nature and nurture is one point yes.

What's important is how we balance that, so as to respect and recognize that difference.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is not submission that brings Liberty. Understanding is what will bring Liberty. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will choose the best choices. When one truly understands all the petty things mankind holds so dear for what these things really are, those petty things will no longer be viable choices one could make. This is the point at Liberty. Laws will no longer be needed.

So what O am seeing in your post you are offering that global enlightenment will bring us to a state of perfection, where we will not need to submit to any laws?

Why do you think Jesus the Christ submitted to the cross, if that was not an example of true liberty?

Let's look at this verses, as I see that is where you base your reply.

Romans 10:4
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Then what do we consider with this verse?

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them".

Is there anytime we are not living under the Law of Christ, when we are in Christ, do we not also submit to the Law given to Jesus? Is that not the Liberty you are offering.

That is the Liberty I see in the first quote I used as an example in this OP.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't know. I think God provides for those who trust him. I don't believe he will necessarily make us wealthy but to the degree that we use what he provides in a good way he will bless us with more. If that's the prosperity gospel I agree with it.
If we are asking for selfish reasons obviously we aren't acting from the Holy Spirit. Liberty is from sin not liberty to sin without consequences.

I would agree with you. Regards Tony

 

[Revoltingest]

Liberty benefits from assertion.
Use it or lose it.

 

[Nakosis]

This post is founded on my understanding of these passage found in the Baha'i Writings.

"True liberty consisteth in man's submission unto My commandments, little as ye know it." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 335

It is obvious that humanity at the current time will not choose this option, so the important thing to note in this OP is that this in not directed at the Baha'i Faith, but at a conversation as to what is a productive and useful "Liberty".

It is observable that humanity already uses submission as a tool in liberated societies, as there needs to be a basic structure of law that gives boundaries to Liberty, as Liberty is also a path to destruction.

This is thought on this other aspect of liberty.

"Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench. Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 335-336

We can see evidence of this in the world news.

This link is to other quotes on both freedom and liberty.

Freedom | Bahá’í Quotes

Your Thoughts?

Regards Tony

IMO, liberty is gained by changing your mind.

In Buddhism this is done through the eightfold path.

The Eightfold Path | Pursuit of Happiness.

Right Intention (Right Thought)
According to Buddha, our thoughts are very powerful; they determine our mental states (such as happiness or sadness) and then our actions. With this understanding, one is then asked to have the right intentions. While this means several different things, it is essentially asking you to turn away from the vicious cycle of craving and desire by committing to a lifestyle of self-improvement and ethical conduct. In this, the commitment to a life of heedfulness, Buddha finds the seeds of happiness.

One cannot just decide to be a better person. To change one's mind is an act of will.
As one cannot simply decide to love their fellowman. One has to be heedful of their thoughts and actions.
One has to constantly correct the mind.
I find the mind to be very daunting, powerful and tricky. To consciously change the very thing that drives us is not an easy thing.
We have to take it a step at a time. Replacing our thoughts with better thoughts. Our actions with better actions.

The light, perhaps enlightenment at the end of the tunnel is this better thought, better actions become who we are. We no longer have to worry about evil or destructive desires because our desires are no longer evil or destructive.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

True liberty means knowing that you will be held responsible for how you use it.

Religious people see that as something that will be meted out by God, but sensible people know that the society in which they live and thrive is just as important.

There's a saying that I am very fond of, as a person who thinks of himself as a free individual: "There is no freedom without responsibility."

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Liberty benefits from assertion.
Use it or lose it.

Well, I agree (as usual, to an extent). And sometimes, you have to fight for it -- and I mean that literally. As a gay boy in high school, I certainly had to (this was in the early 1960s). Fortunately, I'm well over 6 feet, and if anybody thought I was some sort of "Nancy-boy" who would back down at the first showing of a "real-man's" fist -- well, they learned fairly quickly that was not so.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Liberty benefits from assertion.
Use it or lose it.

Do you have an example of that liberty and its value for all humanity?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

IMO, liberty is gained by changing your mind.

In Buddhism this is done through the eightfold path.

The Eightfold Path | Pursuit of Happiness.

Right Intention (Right Thought)
According to Buddha, our thoughts are very powerful; they determine our mental states (such as happiness or sadness) and then our actions. With this understanding, one is then asked to have the right intentions. While this means several different things, it is essentially asking you to turn away from the vicious cycle of craving and desire by committing to a lifestyle of self-improvement and ethical conduct. In this, the commitment to a life of heedfulness, Buddha finds the seeds of happiness.

One cannot just decide to be a better person. To change one's mind is an act of will.
As one cannot simply decide to love their fellowman. One has to be heedful of their thoughts and actions.
One has to constantly correct the mind.
I find the mind to be very daunting, powerful and tricky. To consciously change the very thing that drives us is not an easy thing.
We have to take it a step at a time. Replacing our thoughts with better thoughts. Our actions with better actions.

The light, perhaps enlightenment at the end of the tunnel is this better thought, better actions become who we are. We no longer have to worry about evil or destructive desires because our desires are no longer evil or destructive.

So would you see this as submission to a higher path, a choice we can make?

How can we enable others to consider those choices?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

True liberty means knowing that you will be held responsible for how you use it.

Religious people see that as something that will be meted out by God, but sensible people know that the society in which they live and thrive is just as important.

There's a saying that I am very fond of, as a person who thinks of himself as a free individual: "There is no freedom without responsibility."

What is the gauge that is being used by those 'Responsible Persons'?

Is it the laws already implemented?

Regards Tony