Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Trump calls anything "Fake News" that shows him in a bad light., or he does not like.
It is usually the truth
It is usually the truth
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Trump Accuses NYT of being Fake News
- Thread starter Kuzcotopia
- Start date
Augustus
…
I always liked this quote from Abba Eban, "This apple is round, red, shiny, and good to eat. This rubber ball is round, red and shiny. Therefore, there is at least a strong probability that it will be good to eat. The basic truth is that circumstances in which situations differ from each other may precisely be those that define their essential nature."
Kartari
Active Member
Hi R,
This goes well beyond simple disagreement. The evidence of his own words and actions have consistently pointed to a narcissistic con artist. A man-child in temperament who compulsively and unapologetically lies on a daily basis, using those lies to distract us as he makes executive orders that undo our American values. And who professes to believe sources of information like Breitbart as constituting the standard of high quality reporting, whereas in fact Breitbart is demonstrably on a par with the National Enquirer in that respect.
Saying I "disagree" with him is like saying I "disagree" with a scam artist who cold calls random people claiming to be from "Microsoft Security" and wants to take remote control over my computer because I supposedly have a lot of infections. This is not a mere disagreement I have with an equal, but a matter of seeing through the web of lies spun by the snake oil salesman that is our president.
As for tax breaks for corporations, you mean like the so-called American Health Care bill that is essentially a tax break for the wealthy? A tax break for the rich that will cause some 24 million poorer Americans to lose their health insurance? Is that your idea of a good tax plan?
One thing can be said with certainty is that Trump is an ignorant con artist who fails to grasp the basic facts of the border, without which he remains clueless about how to fix any real issues that we may have.
I think you really fail to appreciate the evidence here. Again, he has begun a trend towards authoritarianism. He has started the fire. Waiting for the fire to consume us is to wait until it's too late. It's not alarmist if it's demonstrably true, R.
He has time and again shown a lack of understanding about our Constitution, including and most especially the First Amendment. He has also demonstrated a thin-skinned narcissism; he cannot take accurate criticism without angrily tweeting his lies about it all day long. He regularly receives what he claims to consider "real" news and information from conspiracy theorist and National Enquirer-analogous "news" sources like Breitbart and InfoWars, while he and Bannon not only declare the media to be the "enemy" but have prohibited the most critical and legitimate news sources from press conferences and has eliminated transparency in federal agencies so we are kept in the dark.
And his latest executive order grants DeVos, Tillerson, Perry, and other agency heads the power to reduce or even eliminate their own agencies entirely, an agenda explicitly declared by some of them like Perry, and implicitly like in the case of DeVos. Trump's irecent budget plan also confirms great cuts in those departments (while unnecessarily increasing funds to the military).
One would think that demonstrably and rampantly lying on a daily basis alone is a punishable offense for the office of the President of the US. Let's see what the Russian hearings lead to.
Lol. I wish the greatest stresses in the world revolved around debates over whether Batman or Superman is the better superhero.
The freedom of religion is directly assaulted by his anti-Islamic promises and his two recent ban attempts. Bannon and other appointees have expressly stated their intent to implement things like religion tests to broadly bar Muslims from entry into the US. And with both bans based on false information as already explained last time, they will not improve security at all since ZERO actual terrorists have come from the banned countries, and is proving more of a security hazard as it's only inspired ISIS who is using the ban as propaganda to recruit more to their cause. The only effect therefore is to greatly inconvenience a lot of innocent people, split up and separate innocent families, has already damaged America's reputation internationally as a haven for refugees and immigrants seeking a better life, and is only strengthening ISIS and other ACTUAL dangers from abroad. In short, when you place an incompetent moron in charge of something, what else can you expect but the opposite of a good outcome?
The freedom of the press is directly threatened when legit media organizations are not only verbally condemned by the president, as the "enemy of the people" as Bannon put it, but are outright barred from the White House. I am unaware of any previous administration in my lifetime, including Bill Clinton, which has actually barred the media from doing its job. Trump furthermore had Breitbart (with very direct ties to his chief strategist Steve Bannon) and other fake news purveyors invited to press conferences instead, thereby informally creating a propaganda department, in effect. Federal agencies have been made more opaque rather than more transparent to the public as well, making it more difficult to know what's going on behind closed doors. And his and Spicer's perpetual MO of telling lies, calling those lies the facts (or "alternative facts" as Conway put it), calling the ACTUAL facts lies and demonizing the tellers of the actual facts by calling them "fake" or "enemy of the people" all of this is clearly a propaganda ploy, a direct assault on the American public's ability to discern reality from fiction. And in fact, this is how dictatorships operate: compel the media to publish propaganda, damage all dissident voices, then do what you will without the truth being reported and falsehoods being believed by too many. Trump is not a dictator yet, and the media is thankfully doing very well in pushing back hard, not with counter-slander but with the hard truth. But he is in fact demonstrating the stirrings of a wannabe dictator for sure.
Trump explicitly supported thwarting the Eighth Amendment's protection from torture (i.e. water boarding and more intensive forms of torture were earlier praised by Trump). Though he's sorta flipped on it, we cannot trust this con artist to not change his mind again.
I understand the Fourth Amendment is potentially being thwarted as well concerning the search and expulsion of illegal immigrants. There are reports of government agents searching the homes of undocumented immigrants without actual warrants. While on can argue that being in the country illegally is illegal of course, the seriousness of this and the reasons for it are largely misunderstood and misconstrued. Trump would have us believe that 100% of all undocumented immigrants in the US are all rapists and drug dealers (he's explicitly stated this, in fact) when in ACTUAL fact many are undocumented because of a failure in communication and or policy, coupled by the fear of getting expelled from the country later on once they do learn the proper procedure and would otherwise register legally. For instance, while interviewing a series of undocumented immigrants on NPR, one woman admitted she initially tried to legally migrate, but failed only because she wrongly thought she needed to go to a Public Notary (in Mexico, a "notario" has the legal authority to do this). There needs to be a better job with translation of proper procedures. The largest influx is due to children (i.e. orphans) and families fleeing violence, and when children in particular come here without knowing English, it's possible for them to slip through the cracks and, really, how can they be expected to understand US law and know what precisely needs to be done to legally enter the country? And as mentioned, the fear of retribution (i.e. getting expelled) keeps undocumented immigrants from becoming documented even after they learn what should have been done, so many live their lives here for decades as perfectly lawful citizens aside from their undocumented status. Trump's orders though are targeting all undocumented immigrants, not just those who commit more serious crimes.
This goes well beyond simple disagreement. The evidence of his own words and actions have consistently pointed to a narcissistic con artist. A man-child in temperament who compulsively and unapologetically lies on a daily basis, using those lies to distract us as he makes executive orders that undo our American values. And who professes to believe sources of information like Breitbart as constituting the standard of high quality reporting, whereas in fact Breitbart is demonstrably on a par with the National Enquirer in that respect.
Saying I "disagree" with him is like saying I "disagree" with a scam artist who cold calls random people claiming to be from "Microsoft Security" and wants to take remote control over my computer because I supposedly have a lot of infections. This is not a mere disagreement I have with an equal, but a matter of seeing through the web of lies spun by the snake oil salesman that is our president.
As for tax breaks for corporations, you mean like the so-called American Health Care bill that is essentially a tax break for the wealthy? A tax break for the rich that will cause some 24 million poorer Americans to lose their health insurance? Is that your idea of a good tax plan?
One thing can be said with certainty is that Trump is an ignorant con artist who fails to grasp the basic facts of the border, without which he remains clueless about how to fix any real issues that we may have.
I think you really fail to appreciate the evidence here. Again, he has begun a trend towards authoritarianism. He has started the fire. Waiting for the fire to consume us is to wait until it's too late. It's not alarmist if it's demonstrably true, R.
He has time and again shown a lack of understanding about our Constitution, including and most especially the First Amendment. He has also demonstrated a thin-skinned narcissism; he cannot take accurate criticism without angrily tweeting his lies about it all day long. He regularly receives what he claims to consider "real" news and information from conspiracy theorist and National Enquirer-analogous "news" sources like Breitbart and InfoWars, while he and Bannon not only declare the media to be the "enemy" but have prohibited the most critical and legitimate news sources from press conferences and has eliminated transparency in federal agencies so we are kept in the dark.
And his latest executive order grants DeVos, Tillerson, Perry, and other agency heads the power to reduce or even eliminate their own agencies entirely, an agenda explicitly declared by some of them like Perry, and implicitly like in the case of DeVos. Trump's irecent budget plan also confirms great cuts in those departments (while unnecessarily increasing funds to the military).
One would think that demonstrably and rampantly lying on a daily basis alone is a punishable offense for the office of the President of the US. Let's see what the Russian hearings lead to.
Lol. I wish the greatest stresses in the world revolved around debates over whether Batman or Superman is the better superhero.
The freedom of religion is directly assaulted by his anti-Islamic promises and his two recent ban attempts. Bannon and other appointees have expressly stated their intent to implement things like religion tests to broadly bar Muslims from entry into the US. And with both bans based on false information as already explained last time, they will not improve security at all since ZERO actual terrorists have come from the banned countries, and is proving more of a security hazard as it's only inspired ISIS who is using the ban as propaganda to recruit more to their cause. The only effect therefore is to greatly inconvenience a lot of innocent people, split up and separate innocent families, has already damaged America's reputation internationally as a haven for refugees and immigrants seeking a better life, and is only strengthening ISIS and other ACTUAL dangers from abroad. In short, when you place an incompetent moron in charge of something, what else can you expect but the opposite of a good outcome?
The freedom of the press is directly threatened when legit media organizations are not only verbally condemned by the president, as the "enemy of the people" as Bannon put it, but are outright barred from the White House. I am unaware of any previous administration in my lifetime, including Bill Clinton, which has actually barred the media from doing its job. Trump furthermore had Breitbart (with very direct ties to his chief strategist Steve Bannon) and other fake news purveyors invited to press conferences instead, thereby informally creating a propaganda department, in effect. Federal agencies have been made more opaque rather than more transparent to the public as well, making it more difficult to know what's going on behind closed doors. And his and Spicer's perpetual MO of telling lies, calling those lies the facts (or "alternative facts" as Conway put it), calling the ACTUAL facts lies and demonizing the tellers of the actual facts by calling them "fake" or "enemy of the people" all of this is clearly a propaganda ploy, a direct assault on the American public's ability to discern reality from fiction. And in fact, this is how dictatorships operate: compel the media to publish propaganda, damage all dissident voices, then do what you will without the truth being reported and falsehoods being believed by too many. Trump is not a dictator yet, and the media is thankfully doing very well in pushing back hard, not with counter-slander but with the hard truth. But he is in fact demonstrating the stirrings of a wannabe dictator for sure.
Trump explicitly supported thwarting the Eighth Amendment's protection from torture (i.e. water boarding and more intensive forms of torture were earlier praised by Trump). Though he's sorta flipped on it, we cannot trust this con artist to not change his mind again.
I understand the Fourth Amendment is potentially being thwarted as well concerning the search and expulsion of illegal immigrants. There are reports of government agents searching the homes of undocumented immigrants without actual warrants. While on can argue that being in the country illegally is illegal of course, the seriousness of this and the reasons for it are largely misunderstood and misconstrued. Trump would have us believe that 100% of all undocumented immigrants in the US are all rapists and drug dealers (he's explicitly stated this, in fact) when in ACTUAL fact many are undocumented because of a failure in communication and or policy, coupled by the fear of getting expelled from the country later on once they do learn the proper procedure and would otherwise register legally. For instance, while interviewing a series of undocumented immigrants on NPR, one woman admitted she initially tried to legally migrate, but failed only because she wrongly thought she needed to go to a Public Notary (in Mexico, a "notario" has the legal authority to do this). There needs to be a better job with translation of proper procedures. The largest influx is due to children (i.e. orphans) and families fleeing violence, and when children in particular come here without knowing English, it's possible for them to slip through the cracks and, really, how can they be expected to understand US law and know what precisely needs to be done to legally enter the country? And as mentioned, the fear of retribution (i.e. getting expelled) keeps undocumented immigrants from becoming documented even after they learn what should have been done, so many live their lives here for decades as perfectly lawful citizens aside from their undocumented status. Trump's orders though are targeting all undocumented immigrants, not just those who commit more serious crimes.
Kartari
Active Member
Hi Augustus,
Except there is a far deeper similarity in this case. Your analogy is superficial and does not hold.
Except there is a far deeper similarity in this case. Your analogy is superficial and does not hold.
Augustus
…
I'd say the fascist comparisons are very superficial and exactly the thing the analogy describes.
What is the 'far deeper similarity'?
Kartari
Active Member
Hi Augustus,
It is inaccurate to make equivalence claims between Trump and specific past fascists, national socialists, and other ruthless dictators. Every individual scenario throughout history is politically unique, in spite of the similarities of human motivations and behaviors.
However, it's readily apparent that the US president, through his words and actions, has decidedly begun to take steps which infringe upon press freedom while simultaneously and very adamantly (and flagrantly) promoting propaganda. Which is what dictators do.
Our president has demonstrated extreme hostility towards the mainstream press, simply for legitimately criticizing him. When the media calls him to task on his seemingly daily compulsion to flagrantly lie, he angrily tweets and dishonestly accuses them in turn of being liars. Meanwhile, Steve Bannon's fraudulent news company Breitbart is being actively promoted by Trump as a quality news source that everyone should rely upon. As well he's promoted other right-wing propagandists and conspiracy theorists, like InfoWars, whom Trump is on video singing their praises. In fact, many of Trump's false statements seem to be made right after these right-wing sources report the same misinformation, or in some cases are misunderstandings of headlines from Fox News for instance.
The maliciously slanderous assaults on legit media's reputation then took a more dire turn when Trump barred the NY Times and several other mainstream media sources from a recent press conference, and yet he invited Breitbart and two other right-wing fake news sources. These actions and the verbal attacks combined clearly indicate a concerted effort to gradually silence media criticism, and to compel it to instead report only good things about Trump and his administration. While the press is thankfully standing firm and continuing to report the facts in spite of this, first of all there is a clear direction that Trump's now established, and I fear he will attempt to further repress media freedom and promote propaganda. And secondly, in barring some media organizations, government transparency is being diminished and made more opaque, enabling Trump to cloud what's going on behind the veneer of the propaganda. Government transparency is also being reduced through Trump's efforts to silence communication of the inner workings of federal agencies under his cabinet's control.
The next step for Trump? Maybe he will opt to bar additional mainstream media sources in upcoming press conferences, perhaps CBS, NBC and ABC. If the only witnesses and reporters with access to the White House and its policies are from Breitbart News (iow, those in the employ of Trump's Chief Strategist, Steve Bannon, who was the company's Editor-In-Chief until very recently) or other right-wing supporters of Trump, we will only receive reports that reflect positively on the president and his administration (i.e. false reports in the form of propaganda).
The ability of the press to accurately report what's going on becomes diminished as well if, for instance, Trump's next step instead is to up the verbal abuse degree into more blatant threats to actually harm news agencies that report badly on him. Perhaps Trump will threaten to sue them... Oh wait, he already did! Over a year ago now, he vowed that if elected president he would change libel laws to make it easier to sue the media (source). Remember that we're talking about a man who has repeatedly reiterated the desire to keep all his campaign promises, and this is one of them. So it's probably just a matter of time then before he goes this route...
And so, if one eschews bias and pays attention, one sees the initial stirrings of a wannabe despot. Precisely how far he will try to take it is not known. But considering Trump's general pattern to date, not only specifically concerning the media but in the broadest sense of his general behavior and demonstrable incompetence, it seems almost certain to me that he will go further with this, and likely further and further down this rabbit hole. Among his plethora of other rabbit holes, but that's another topic...
It is inaccurate to make equivalence claims between Trump and specific past fascists, national socialists, and other ruthless dictators. Every individual scenario throughout history is politically unique, in spite of the similarities of human motivations and behaviors.
However, it's readily apparent that the US president, through his words and actions, has decidedly begun to take steps which infringe upon press freedom while simultaneously and very adamantly (and flagrantly) promoting propaganda. Which is what dictators do.
Our president has demonstrated extreme hostility towards the mainstream press, simply for legitimately criticizing him. When the media calls him to task on his seemingly daily compulsion to flagrantly lie, he angrily tweets and dishonestly accuses them in turn of being liars. Meanwhile, Steve Bannon's fraudulent news company Breitbart is being actively promoted by Trump as a quality news source that everyone should rely upon. As well he's promoted other right-wing propagandists and conspiracy theorists, like InfoWars, whom Trump is on video singing their praises. In fact, many of Trump's false statements seem to be made right after these right-wing sources report the same misinformation, or in some cases are misunderstandings of headlines from Fox News for instance.
The maliciously slanderous assaults on legit media's reputation then took a more dire turn when Trump barred the NY Times and several other mainstream media sources from a recent press conference, and yet he invited Breitbart and two other right-wing fake news sources. These actions and the verbal attacks combined clearly indicate a concerted effort to gradually silence media criticism, and to compel it to instead report only good things about Trump and his administration. While the press is thankfully standing firm and continuing to report the facts in spite of this, first of all there is a clear direction that Trump's now established, and I fear he will attempt to further repress media freedom and promote propaganda. And secondly, in barring some media organizations, government transparency is being diminished and made more opaque, enabling Trump to cloud what's going on behind the veneer of the propaganda. Government transparency is also being reduced through Trump's efforts to silence communication of the inner workings of federal agencies under his cabinet's control.
The next step for Trump? Maybe he will opt to bar additional mainstream media sources in upcoming press conferences, perhaps CBS, NBC and ABC. If the only witnesses and reporters with access to the White House and its policies are from Breitbart News (iow, those in the employ of Trump's Chief Strategist, Steve Bannon, who was the company's Editor-In-Chief until very recently) or other right-wing supporters of Trump, we will only receive reports that reflect positively on the president and his administration (i.e. false reports in the form of propaganda).
The ability of the press to accurately report what's going on becomes diminished as well if, for instance, Trump's next step instead is to up the verbal abuse degree into more blatant threats to actually harm news agencies that report badly on him. Perhaps Trump will threaten to sue them... Oh wait, he already did! Over a year ago now, he vowed that if elected president he would change libel laws to make it easier to sue the media (source). Remember that we're talking about a man who has repeatedly reiterated the desire to keep all his campaign promises, and this is one of them. So it's probably just a matter of time then before he goes this route...
And so, if one eschews bias and pays attention, one sees the initial stirrings of a wannabe despot. Precisely how far he will try to take it is not known. But considering Trump's general pattern to date, not only specifically concerning the media but in the broadest sense of his general behavior and demonstrable incompetence, it seems almost certain to me that he will go further with this, and likely further and further down this rabbit hole. Among his plethora of other rabbit holes, but that's another topic...
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Trump is far from the only president I've seen who chafes at constitutional liberties.Hi R,
This goes well beyond simple disagreement. The evidence of his own words and actions have consistently pointed to a narcissistic con artist. A man-child in temperament who compulsively and unapologetically lies on a daily basis, using those lies to distract us as he makes executive orders that undo our American values. And who professes to believe sources of information like Breitbart as constituting the standard of high quality reporting, whereas in fact Breitbart is demonstrably on a par with the National Enquirer in that respect.
Saying I "disagree" with him is like saying I "disagree" with a scam artist who cold calls random people claiming to be from "Microsoft Security" and wants to take remote control over my computer because I supposedly have a lot of infections. This is not a mere disagreement I have with an equal, but a matter of seeing through the web of lies spun by the snake oil salesman that is our president.
As for tax breaks for corporations, you mean like the so-called American Health Care bill that is essentially a tax break for the wealthy? A tax break for the rich that will cause some 24 million poorer Americans to lose their health insurance? Is that your idea of a good tax plan?
One thing can be said with certainty is that Trump is an ignorant con artist who fails to grasp the basic facts of the border, without which he remains clueless about how to fix any real issues that we may have.
I think you really fail to appreciate the evidence here. Again, he has begun a trend towards authoritarianism. He has started the fire. Waiting for the fire to consume us is to wait until it's too late. It's not alarmist if it's demonstrably true, R.
He has time and again shown a lack of understanding about our Constitution, including and most especially the First Amendment. He has also demonstrated a thin-skinned narcissism; he cannot take accurate criticism without angrily tweeting his lies about it all day long. He regularly receives what he claims to consider "real" news and information from conspiracy theorist and National Enquirer-analogous "news" sources like Breitbart and InfoWars, while he and Bannon not only declare the media to be the "enemy" but have prohibited the most critical and legitimate news sources from press conferences and has eliminated transparency in federal agencies so we are kept in the dark.
And his latest executive order grants DeVos, Tillerson, Perry, and other agency heads the power to reduce or even eliminate their own agencies entirely, an agenda explicitly declared by some of them like Perry, and implicitly like in the case of DeVos. Trump's irecent budget plan also confirms great cuts in those departments (while unnecessarily increasing funds to the military).
One would think that demonstrably and rampantly lying on a daily basis alone is a punishable offense for the office of the President of the US. Let's see what the Russian hearings lead to.
Lol. I wish the greatest stresses in the world revolved around debates over whether Batman or Superman is the better superhero.
The freedom of religion is directly assaulted by his anti-Islamic promises and his two recent ban attempts. Bannon and other appointees have expressly stated their intent to implement things like religion tests to broadly bar Muslims from entry into the US. And with both bans based on false information as already explained last time, they will not improve security at all since ZERO actual terrorists have come from the banned countries, and is proving more of a security hazard as it's only inspired ISIS who is using the ban as propaganda to recruit more to their cause. The only effect therefore is to greatly inconvenience a lot of innocent people, split up and separate innocent families, has already damaged America's reputation internationally as a haven for refugees and immigrants seeking a better life, and is only strengthening ISIS and other ACTUAL dangers from abroad. In short, when you place an incompetent moron in charge of something, what else can you expect but the opposite of a good outcome?
The freedom of the press is directly threatened when legit media organizations are not only verbally condemned by the president, as the "enemy of the people" as Bannon put it, but are outright barred from the White House. I am unaware of any previous administration in my lifetime, including Bill Clinton, which has actually barred the media from doing its job. Trump furthermore had Breitbart (with very direct ties to his chief strategist Steve Bannon) and other fake news purveyors invited to press conferences instead, thereby informally creating a propaganda department, in effect. Federal agencies have been made more opaque rather than more transparent to the public as well, making it more difficult to know what's going on behind closed doors. And his and Spicer's perpetual MO of telling lies, calling those lies the facts (or "alternative facts" as Conway put it), calling the ACTUAL facts lies and demonizing the tellers of the actual facts by calling them "fake" or "enemy of the people" all of this is clearly a propaganda ploy, a direct assault on the American public's ability to discern reality from fiction. And in fact, this is how dictatorships operate: compel the media to publish propaganda, damage all dissident voices, then do what you will without the truth being reported and falsehoods being believed by too many. Trump is not a dictator yet, and the media is thankfully doing very well in pushing back hard, not with counter-slander but with the hard truth. But he is in fact demonstrating the stirrings of a wannabe dictator for sure.
Trump explicitly supported thwarting the Eighth Amendment's protection from torture (i.e. water boarding and more intensive forms of torture were earlier praised by Trump). Though he's sorta flipped on it, we cannot trust this con artist to not change his mind again.
I understand the Fourth Amendment is potentially being thwarted as well concerning the search and expulsion of illegal immigrants. There are reports of government agents searching the homes of undocumented immigrants without actual warrants. While on can argue that being in the country illegally is illegal of course, the seriousness of this and the reasons for it are largely misunderstood and misconstrued. Trump would have us believe that 100% of all undocumented immigrants in the US are all rapists and drug dealers (he's explicitly stated this, in fact) when in ACTUAL fact many are undocumented because of a failure in communication and or policy, coupled by the fear of getting expelled from the country later on once they do learn the proper procedure and would otherwise register legally. For instance, while interviewing a series of undocumented immigrants on NPR, one woman admitted she initially tried to legally migrate, but failed only because she wrongly thought she needed to go to a Public Notary (in Mexico, a "notario" has the legal authority to do this). There needs to be a better job with translation of proper procedures. The largest influx is due to children (i.e. orphans) and families fleeing violence, and when children in particular come here without knowing English, it's possible for them to slip through the cracks and, really, how can they be expected to understand US law and know what precisely needs to be done to legally enter the country? And as mentioned, the fear of retribution (i.e. getting expelled) keeps undocumented immigrants from becoming documented even after they learn what should have been done, so many live their lives here for decades as perfectly lawful citizens aside from their undocumented status. Trump's orders though are targeting all undocumented immigrants, not just those who commit more serious crimes.
Even much beloved Clinton was a multiple civil rights threat.
Tell you what.....
If Trump does prove to be a fascist, you can say "I told you so.".
But until it happens, I say it's low enuf probability to be deemed tin foil hat worthy.
Kartari
Active Member
Hi R,
Historically, going back to the country's origins, that is true. In spite of his more redeeming qualities, America's second president John Adams notoriously infringed upon press freedoms. There have been other presidents to do so I am sure, though I cannot recall the details offhand at the moment.
But in the past several decades, I do not recall a more serious threat to our Constitutional liberties as we have in this president. Bear in mind I regard the First Amendment as the most fundamental, and reasonably so since the freedoms of speech and press are as vital to the preservation of all other liberties as oxygen is to our lives.
I suppose we can agree to disagree on that probability, then. How successful he will be at it I do not know for certain, but that he will further attempt to erode press freedom seems very certain to me.
You may enjoy my post to Augustus above, btw. Some of it repeats what I wrote to you already, but some I believe I did not bring up to you in this thread.
Historically, going back to the country's origins, that is true. In spite of his more redeeming qualities, America's second president John Adams notoriously infringed upon press freedoms. There have been other presidents to do so I am sure, though I cannot recall the details offhand at the moment.
But in the past several decades, I do not recall a more serious threat to our Constitutional liberties as we have in this president. Bear in mind I regard the First Amendment as the most fundamental, and reasonably so since the freedoms of speech and press are as vital to the preservation of all other liberties as oxygen is to our lives.
I suppose we can agree to disagree on that probability, then. How successful he will be at it I do not know for certain, but that he will further attempt to erode press freedom seems very certain to me.
You may enjoy my post to Augustus above, btw. Some of it repeats what I wrote to you already, but some I believe I did not bring up to you in this thread.
Judging a president's threat to constitutional liberties requires familiarity with their record.
Clinton's is bad, & it's a record of accomplishment in curbing liberty, eg, free speech, jury trial rights, property rights.
Will Trump be better or worse?
It's too early to say.
But so far, he looks no worse than most (to me).
Most of the arguments against him are more about how people "feel" threatened.
Kartari
Active Member
Hi R,
It's not just a "feeling" of being threatened, like some kind of subjective assumption. But, as mentioned, it's in seeing the beginnings of infringements enacted, coupled by his already stated intentions and behaviors, and then logically deducing a pattern that's now beginning to emerge.
If you can find links to the infringements you claim Clinton did I'd be interested in reviewing them. Thanks.
It's not just a "feeling" of being threatened, like some kind of subjective assumption. But, as mentioned, it's in seeing the beginnings of infringements enacted, coupled by his already stated intentions and behaviors, and then logically deducing a pattern that's now beginning to emerge.
If you can find links to the infringements you claim Clinton did I'd be interested in reviewing them. Thanks.
Looking at things objectively, what has Trump actually effected to curb liberties?
I've posted Clinton's before.
Some highlights.....
- Petty offense doctrine (loss of right to jury trial)
- Warrantless searches (in public housing)
- Curbing gun rights
Ref...
Ask Any RF Member a Question...
Republican Ron Paul and Media Ignorance
The Growing Disbelief in Evolution Among Republicans
Boycott Hobby Lobby: Trumping Women's Rights
Clinton took actual steps to thwart constitutional rights.
What has Trump actually done?
Many say we've lost press freedom, but they offer no evidence.
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Augustus
…
I haven't seen any steps which restrict press freedom. He certainly promotes dubious news sources, but a dictator places legal restrictions on oppositional news and until he does this then it is not 'what dictators do'.
This is nothing substantially different from routine media management of the sort that politicians have done for decades. He didn't ban them from press conferences in general, just created additional press conferences for favoured sources.
Politicians have long tried to create positive coverage by the carrot/stick or increased/restricted access. It is a problem that has existed for a long time and seeing it as something new is myopic
These threats tend to actually help promote the news sources he is attacking. Good free publicity.
Also he could significantly strengthen libel laws and they would still be weaker than many in Europe. Is Britain, for example, a fascist country?
There are so many legitimate criticisms one can make about Trump that I don't see why people feel the need to cry 'fascist' rather than simply criticise these things on their individual merits.
Kartari
Active Member
Revoltingest,
I must have missed those, easy for me to do since I'm not her every often. Thanks, I will check them out when I get a chance.
Btw, I just recalled an interview to wrap up my point. Trump was interviewed some years ago by someone whose name now escapes me. I was reminded of this interview more recently, but unfortunately I cannot recall the source... but I do very clearly remember the content.
Trump stated to the interviewee that he disagreed with the statement that "All men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence. When asked why, Trump replied that not everyone has the same strengths and weaknesses, and that some have more talent than others. When the interviewee (correctly) corrected Trump by stating that she thinks the intent of that statement is not to claim equality of talent but to establish the equality of rights for all under the law, Trump seemed befuddled and skeptically replied something like, "You think that's true?"
What this clearly reveals to me is that Trump fails to comprehend even the most basic facets of American law and the Constitution (or Declaration of Independence more specifically, in this case). And now that same fundamentally ignorant man is the president of this country...
Quite frankly, how this does not scare the s#!+ out of anyone and everyone is truly beyond me. It's like hiring a computer technician to repair your computer who demonstrates a lack of understanding that electricity powers computers or that keyboards are used to type things on a computer.
I must have missed those, easy for me to do since I'm not her every often. Thanks, I will check them out when I get a chance.
Btw, I just recalled an interview to wrap up my point. Trump was interviewed some years ago by someone whose name now escapes me. I was reminded of this interview more recently, but unfortunately I cannot recall the source... but I do very clearly remember the content.
Trump stated to the interviewee that he disagreed with the statement that "All men are created equal" in the Declaration of Independence. When asked why, Trump replied that not everyone has the same strengths and weaknesses, and that some have more talent than others. When the interviewee (correctly) corrected Trump by stating that she thinks the intent of that statement is not to claim equality of talent but to establish the equality of rights for all under the law, Trump seemed befuddled and skeptically replied something like, "You think that's true?"
What this clearly reveals to me is that Trump fails to comprehend even the most basic facets of American law and the Constitution (or Declaration of Independence more specifically, in this case). And now that same fundamentally ignorant man is the president of this country...
Quite frankly, how this does not scare the s#!+ out of anyone and everyone is truly beyond me. It's like hiring a computer technician to repair your computer who demonstrates a lack of understanding that electricity powers computers or that keyboards are used to type things on a computer.
I'll stick to what politicians actually do in office.
We can't go by what they say, you know.....
- They're not trustworthy. (Some even lie. It's true!)
- They can't do everything they might intend.
- They might change their mind.
But a record of signing laws, arguing in court, & ruling administratively is an objective measure.
This is why I judge Clinton harshly, but Trump not yet.
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Kartari
Active Member
Hi Augustus,
Actually, history teaches us that you do not need to formally sign into law something to undo liberties like press freedom. You only need the consensus of enough people to take actions which restrict them. Offhand, though this was the result of many rather than one specific "despot," the most striking example of this to enter my brain at the moment are American civil rights struggles. In the aftermath of the Civil War, black Americans were guaranteed equal rights under the law to white Americans via the 13th Amendment. Yet within a decade or so, the racist backlash in the south in particular, coupled by the Supreme Court's upholding of pro big-business and racist interpretations of the Constitution allowed the states to blatantly oppose the Constitution by enacting a series of laws which came to keep blacks and other "colored" Americans in an inferior and poor social status, such as segregation laws. Blacks in practice were close to being practically enslaved once more for nearly another century before the 1960's brought about a return to the original intent behind the 13th Amendment.
The first step towards infringing upon our constitutional liberties is therefore to have enough consensus, and not passing actual laws. The laws come after you garner enough support for your unconstitutional agenda. And to promote your agenda, you attack the free press and promote your own propaganda... which Trump in fact has been doing.
Considering Trump's repeated and rather vicious verbal assaults on the press, I think you grossly underestimate this president's intentions to silence his critics. It's still early, but it seems clear the direction he's going in, when one considers his consistently hostile statements and threats towards his critics.
Nonetheless, my point stands.
First of all, I'm not saying Trump is specifically a fascist. That has more specific connotations that don't 100% apply to him thus far. For instance, while he does clearly demonstrate a strong sense of nationalism like fascists do, and also has dictatorial and racist tendencies, he does not support the regimentation of commerce and industry as fascists historically have (rather, he seems to support the exact opposite in this respect, the extreme lapse in corporate regulation).
I definitely consider him a demagogue, and one with clear dictatorial tendencies at best. I don't know how far he will try to take his dictatorial tendencies, but I do fear he will very likely continue significantly further down this path than barring a few agencies from press conferences. Especially considering he's explicitly stated troubling statements in the past, for instance that as president he'd make it a lot easier to sue the press.
Again, I'm not specifically playing the fascist card here. But I do think that if you more carefully consider my points, coupled by what I wrote to Revoltingest too, that you will be forced to conclude that Trump poses a very real threat to our constitutional liberties.
Actually, history teaches us that you do not need to formally sign into law something to undo liberties like press freedom. You only need the consensus of enough people to take actions which restrict them. Offhand, though this was the result of many rather than one specific "despot," the most striking example of this to enter my brain at the moment are American civil rights struggles. In the aftermath of the Civil War, black Americans were guaranteed equal rights under the law to white Americans via the 13th Amendment. Yet within a decade or so, the racist backlash in the south in particular, coupled by the Supreme Court's upholding of pro big-business and racist interpretations of the Constitution allowed the states to blatantly oppose the Constitution by enacting a series of laws which came to keep blacks and other "colored" Americans in an inferior and poor social status, such as segregation laws. Blacks in practice were close to being practically enslaved once more for nearly another century before the 1960's brought about a return to the original intent behind the 13th Amendment.
The first step towards infringing upon our constitutional liberties is therefore to have enough consensus, and not passing actual laws. The laws come after you garner enough support for your unconstitutional agenda. And to promote your agenda, you attack the free press and promote your own propaganda... which Trump in fact has been doing.
Considering Trump's repeated and rather vicious verbal assaults on the press, I think you grossly underestimate this president's intentions to silence his critics. It's still early, but it seems clear the direction he's going in, when one considers his consistently hostile statements and threats towards his critics.
Nonetheless, my point stands.
First of all, I'm not saying Trump is specifically a fascist. That has more specific connotations that don't 100% apply to him thus far. For instance, while he does clearly demonstrate a strong sense of nationalism like fascists do, and also has dictatorial and racist tendencies, he does not support the regimentation of commerce and industry as fascists historically have (rather, he seems to support the exact opposite in this respect, the extreme lapse in corporate regulation).
I definitely consider him a demagogue, and one with clear dictatorial tendencies at best. I don't know how far he will try to take his dictatorial tendencies, but I do fear he will very likely continue significantly further down this path than barring a few agencies from press conferences. Especially considering he's explicitly stated troubling statements in the past, for instance that as president he'd make it a lot easier to sue the press.
Again, I'm not specifically playing the fascist card here. But I do think that if you more carefully consider my points, coupled by what I wrote to Revoltingest too, that you will be forced to conclude that Trump poses a very real threat to our constitutional liberties.
It's hardly tin hat worthy. Trump is a combination of the most ill tempered, racist bigoted presidents we have had just looking at the 1900's to now. It takes a lot to be the Voltron of our most recent controvercial presidents(idea credited to Adam ruins everything).
Your opinion of him is more extreme than I think is warranted.
I'll reserve judgement until reality provides real data.
How much data do you need, doesn't look like he has intention on breaking most of the campaign promises. Which a lot of people were hoping was just rhetoric to satisfy his base. You still hoping? That's quite optimistic.
I'm an optimistic pessimist.
So I never expected him to honor his campaign promises.
He hasn't done much of what his critics claim is fascism, eg, curbing press freedom.
I give no weight to mere fears & fevered prognostications.
When you can cite legislation or administrative rules he's signed, we can talk.
Seems like you are putting Trumps action on ignore and he has signed plenty of orders to back up the rhetoric. Kicking out more than half the press from his meetings, promoting major organizations as fake, trying to punish political opponents and siding with fascist regimes isn't enough? Is it true what trump said he could shoot someone in public and wouldn't sway his base? You have a lot of tolerance for not showing much to the other side.