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Trump and McCain - what is a "war hero"?

Adramelek

Setian
Premium Member
Over the weekend Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump caused some turmoil when he said that senator John McCain is only a "war hero" because he was a POW. But, what is a war hero as defined by you? Is there such a thing? And if so, what are the qualifications? Even though I admire Sen. John McCain for his service to America in the military, and his six years as a pow, I do not necessarily view him as a "war-hero", and I also see him as a do nothing establishment politician.

Who do I view as real American "war hero's"?
Chris Kyle - Navy SEAL, sniper with 160 confirmed enemy kills.
General George S. Patton - WW II
General Douglas MacArthur - WW II
General George Washington - America's War of Independence and first President of the United States.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
A war hero is someone who fights for a just peace. McCain was tortured by the Vietcong and spoke out against "enhanced interrogation" techniques under Bush because of the experience. He doesn't want his enemies to go through what he did. He stood up and said it in Congress. Whatever his failings as a politician, for that he deserves a medal.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
Hey, I take it every bit as seriously as Kim Kardashian's political commentary!

Ha! He's not that bad. He's no less comical but in substance slightly better than Palin in my opinion - he has actually accomplished something with his life, but he obviously doesn't belong on the political stage. Palin and Kardashian have done nothing, and K less than nothing.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
War heroes? Abdul Ghaffar Khan is the name that springs to mind. Oskar Schindler. Arguably Gandhi, although I think he was somewhat naive. Perhaps Phillipe Pétain.

I don't think killing people makes one a hero by any measure. Particularly when the main merit is having technologicai superiority.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Over the weekend Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump caused some turmoil when he said that senator John McCain is only a "war hero" because he was a POW. But, what is a war hero as defined by you? Is there such a thing? And if so, what are the qualifications? Even though I admire Sen. John McCain for his service to America in the military, and his six years as a pow, I do not necessarily view him as a "war-hero", and I also see him as a do nothing establishment politician.

Who do I view as real American "war hero's"?
Chris Kyle - Navy SEAL, sniper with 160 confirmed enemy kills.
General George S. Patton - WW II
General Douglas MacArthur - WW II
General George Washington - America's War of Independence and first President of the United States.
You best scratch Dugout-Dug off that list before I get angry.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
War heroes? Abdul Ghaffar Khan is the name that springs to mind. Oskar Schindler. Arguably Gandhi, although I think he was somewhat naive. Perhaps Phillipe Pétain.

I don't think killing people makes one a hero by any measure. Particularly when the main merit is having technologicai superiority.
...Marshal Petain? Vichy Petain? He may have been a WW1 Hero, I'll grant that. I will also grant that he was probably doing what he genuinely thought best for France. That doesn't change the fact he willingly worked with Hitler to set up a Fascist-lite government.

Definitely not Trump.
I would go so far as to argue that "hero" and "Donald Trump" are mutually exclusive terms.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
...Marshal Petain? Vichy Petain? He may have been a WW1 Hero, I'll grant that. I will also grant that he was probably doing what he genuinely thought best for France. That doesn't change the fact he willingly worked with Hitler to set up a Fascist-lite government.

I don't particularly disagree, but then again, I think there is a near complete contradiction in the very concept of a war hero.

Leaving that aside, one has to ask what could have been better choices at that time while on his specific situation. Perhaps they did exist, but I don't think that is particularly obvious.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Over the weekend Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump caused some turmoil when he said that senator John McCain is only a "war hero" because he was a POW. But, what is a war hero as defined by you? Is there such a thing? And if so, what are the qualifications? Even though I admire Sen. John McCain for his service to America in the military, and his six years as a pow, I do not necessarily view him as a "war-hero", and I also see him as a do nothing establishment politician.

Who do I view as real American "war hero's"?
Chris Kyle - Navy SEAL, sniper with 160 confirmed enemy kills.
General George S. Patton - WW II
General Douglas MacArthur - WW II
General George Washington - America's War of Independence and first President of the United States.
I would say his refusal to help North Vietnamese propoganda by refusing early release, which would violate military law, qualifies him as a war hero. His political career has nothing at all to do with it.
 

Marisa

Well-Known Member
John McCain is an interesting case study. He's been winning elections for decades largely due to his veteran status. And yet, as VA watchdog groups pointed out when he campaigned against Obama, he doesn't have a great record where veterans issues are concerned. I personally think it's pathetic the way military service members are deified in our society, it makes me uncomfortable as hell given our recent foreign policy history. At the same time, I think it's hilarious that many conservatives seem to think if you're liberal, you aren't qualified for office without a military service record but if you're conservative, meh, it's not the be all end all.:D

Did Trump say that McCain isn't a war hero? Yep. And then he corrected himself, or attempted to, by saying that he's a war hero "because he was captured". So I'm left wondering, does Trump think only POW's are war heroes? But then I realized that The Donald never misspeaks. He always tells the truth, everybody knows it and we all love him.
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
I do find it interesting that John Kerry has come to McCain's defense. Jeb Bush is supposedly upset that McCain's heroism has been questioned. But a quick look back demonstrates how astonishingly hypocritical Bush's behavior is:

After the campaign Jeb Bush, then Governor of Florida, sent a letter to George Day — a member of the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth who appeared in television advertisements trashing Kerry. Day said Kerry, a recipient of the Silver Star and three Purple Hearts, would “go down in history sometime as the Benedict Arnold of 1971.” In his letter, Bush thanks Day and the “other Swifties” for their “support of my brother in his re-election.” “I simply cannot express in words how much I value their willingness to stand up against John Kerry,” Bush wrote.

Rick Perry, who is busy condemning Trump, also endorsed the swift boaters. The Republican Party refused to condemn them. To his credit, McCain defended Kerry, but still campaigned with the swift boaters. He even praised the worst of the lot as an inspirational leader, when he was campaigning with that liar in Iowa. McCain's current denunciation of Trump for inciting the Republican Party "crazies" is laughable given his endorsement of Palin as part of a "good cop bad cop" 2008 campaign strategy, and the fact that, you know, Republicans can't actually win elections without the crazies. Here he is in 2008, saying that some angry Wisconsin crazy is right to call the Democrats socialist (oh how I wish!) and calling for investigations into "voter fraud" allegations on the part of ACORN.

You know, like virtually all Americans, I had friends and family who served in these wars. They displayed acts of courage and heroism, sure, but by and large the were frightened teenagers or very young adults operating out a mixed sense of loyalty and recklessness that we cultivate and rely upon in foreign misadventures. So sure call them heroes when they do heroic things. But they're not perfect, and they are not gods. I think that McCain is an incredibly flawed human being quite apart from his war record.

As for your list, how brave and heroic was Washington, who knew that slavery was wrong and yet waited until he died to free the people he claimed were his to own? How brave were generals who were not on the front lines and faced no real risk of death? Or Chris Kyle, whose dubious legacy languishes amid defamation lawsuits, historical revisionism and profiteering?

Trump's idiocy speaks for itself. My grandfather was shot down in Yugoslavia; was he heroic because he wasn't caught, indeed was rescued by those communists Republicans hate, while others shot down with him were somehow less heroic? And on and on and on it goes.

Trump is a despicable and dishonest and dishonorable politician, along with everyone he will be sharing the stage with next month. What they did during wartime doesn't much concern me.
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
Over the weekend Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump caused some turmoil when he said that senator John McCain is only a "war hero" because he was a POW. But, what is a war hero as defined by you? Is there such a thing? And if so, what are the qualifications? Even though I admire Sen. John McCain for his service to America in the military, and his six years as a pow, I do not necessarily view him as a "war-hero", and I also see him as a do nothing establishment politician.

Who do I view as real American "war hero's"?
Chris Kyle - Navy SEAL, sniper with 160 confirmed enemy kills.
General George S. Patton - WW II
General Douglas MacArthur - WW II
General George Washington - America's War of Independence and first President of the United States.

Don't have a personal opinion on this as I do not use the title "hero" outside of fictional situations.
Much of my family has seen war, many suffered from the aftermath.
My favorite grandfather would say, "the guys who kill the most enemies".
My uncles would probably say, "the people that risked their lives to save others, especially if they didn't have to".

So take it or leave it.
I agree with my grandfather mostly, war at it's core is about subduing your enemy efficiently and for a purpose.
So those who are the most efficient killers are those that close the time gap for the wars end.
I suppose you don't have to kill the enemy to win, but it is easier and has less side-effects than letting them live.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
The real issue is the flagarant disrespect toward all (USA) veterans by someone who wants to be their commander in chief.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
My dad....

He told me his story.
He crawled out into the field to retrieve a wounded.....under fire.
No one else would go.

I believe him.
I could see it in his eyes.
must have scared him.

no medal....
 
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