Trump Calls for Ban on All Muslims Entering US

[SkepticThinker]

It does not matter how slave holders sought to justify their business. Slave trading was condemned both in the Old and New Testaments:

"Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession." (Exodus 21:16)

"the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine," (1 Timothy 1:10)

A whole bunch of people calling themselves Christians have disagreed with you, and have used the Bible to justify slavery. So apparently, religious texts are open to interpretation.

The Bible has a whole comprehensive section on the treatment of slaves, (Exodus 21) so you can't really blame people for thinking that slavery was a-ok.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)
"Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you--although if you can gain your freedom, do so." (1 Corinthians 7:21)

If anything, these two passages affirm the status of slavery by acknowledging that slaves are also one in Christ, and that it shouldn't bother you if you were a slave when you were called, and you should get your freedom if you can - it says nothing to resist, that it's wrong to be owned as property, that you deserve better treatment, and that you shouldn't be forced to do what your told? The Bible never actually addresses any of the inherent problems with slavery. Contemporary values, which frequently come from Enlightenment era thinkers, not only sometimes did speak about the inherent evils of slavery, where sometimes known for writing about the unequal status of women, and even an occasional atheist would stand up for the group. Under Abrahamic law (all three texts), slavery is allowed, women are not equal, and disbelieve is unforgivable and punishable by death.
It's only a matter of time before we realize our modern views are so out of touch with those ancient views that we will collectively ask what's the point? We'll discard these ancient superstitions, develop new approaches to spirituality, and move on without the lingering baggage of long-dead warring and repressive goat-herding nomads. Science and logic will guide us, and while we'll probably still believe in something, there won't be questionable content as a part of the core believes.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It does not matter how slave holders sought to justify their business. Slave trading was condemned both in the Old and New Testaments:

"Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession." (Exodus 21:16)

"the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine," (1 Timothy 1:10)

The Exodus passage says nothing of slavery, but again it does acknowledge the status of slavery without even having the decency to demand the victim be set free if the victim has been sold. And Exodus 21:20 says someone can beat their slaves as hard as they want as long as the slave recovers after a day or two because the slave is their property. So, we have Biblical support for an inherent problem of slavery, the idea of a human being degraded to the status of property, and something that is very wrong by contemporary Western ideals, and even throughout the East, and throughout most of the world today.
Enslavers are not the same as slave owners, and while they both support the same system, Paul indeed tells slaves to obey. In fact, Ephesians 6:5, Colossians 3:22, and 1 Peter 2:18 all say pretty much the same thing, and that is slaves are to obey their masters as they would Christ. This not only includes the labor slaves we think of, but sex and breeding slaves as well.

 

[Lyndon]

Yeah the Bible says all that, but Jesus doesn't say or condone any of that stuff, so you can follow Jesus without being party to all the rubbish in other parts of the Bible IMHO.

 

[Crypto2015]

So you think all muslims are simply lying in wait of the day they can be violent? That is quite a stretch.

Not all of them. Nominal Muslims have no idea of what Islam teaches. You also have Muslims who are taught that Islam is peaceful. They genuinely believe that. These Muslims have no idea of what was the age of Aisha when she was deflowered by Muhammad, or about which verse abrogates which verse. All they know about Islam is what they hear in the Mosque. Then you have genuinely devout Muslims who seriously study the Islamic scriptures. These people know that Islam is violent and they are jihadis. However, they may not be violent. It is important to understand that there are several types of Jihad: Jihad against one's self, Jihad against Satan (these first two types of Jihad are mandatory for all Muslims), Jihad against the hypocrites and the disbelievers, and Jihad against the leaders of oppression and innovation. Jihad against the disbelievers is further classified into Jihad of the heart, Jihad of the tongue, Jihad of one's wealth, and Jihad of oneself.

Here I quote a famous and mainstream Islamic website:

"Jihad is of various kinds, with one’s self, one's wealth, by making du`a’, by teaching and guiding, by helping to do good in any way. The greatest form of jihad is jihad with one’s self (i.e., going oneself and fighting), followed by jihad with one's wealth, jihad by speaking out and guiding others. Da`wah is also part of jihad. But going out oneself to fight in jihad is the highest form." (Fatawa ash-Sheikh Ibn Baz, 7/334, 335)

http://www.islamawareness.net/Jihad/types_jihad.html

Dawah means preaching. So, a devout Muslim can be a jihadist without being violent. He just needs to do Dawah.

 

[Crypto2015]

The Exodus passage says nothing of slavery, but again it does acknowledge the status of slavery without even having the decency to demand the victim be set free if the victim has been sold. And Exodus 21:20 says someone can beat their slaves as hard as they want as long as the slave recovers after a day or two because the slave is their property. So, we have Biblical support for an inherent problem of slavery, the idea of a human being degraded to the status of property, and something that is very wrong by contemporary Western ideals, and even throughout the East, and throughout most of the world today.
Enslavers are not the same as slave owners, and while they both support the same system, Paul indeed tells slaves to obey. In fact, Ephesians 6:5, Colossians 3:22, and 1 Peter 2:18 all say pretty much the same thing, and that is slaves are to obey their masters as they would Christ. This not only includes the labor slaves we think of, but sex and breeding slaves as well.

Are you kidding me?

"Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession." (Exodus 21:16)

When the sentence mentions selling the kidnapped person, what do you think it is talking about? This passage is totally about slave trading. The ancient Israelites had serfs (or slaves, although serf is a more proper word) but unlike the US slave traders they didn't go around kidnapping people in other places to treat them as beasts. In ancient Israel, slaves could inherit their master's properties, had one day off per week, could not be killed, and could not be raped. Returning fugitive slaves to their masters was also against the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 23:15-16). Christianity teaches that slaves and freemen are equal before God:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

"knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free." (Ephesians 6:8)"

And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him." (Ephesians 6:9)

"a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)

The Bible says that a slave trader is as much of a sinner as a fornicator, a homosexual, a false witness, or a liar:

"the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine," (1 Timothy 1:10)

To summarize, I don't know what kind of horrendous things you people have done there in the US. All I know is that it didn't have anything to do with Christianity, despite your claims to the contrary.

 

[Crypto2015]

A whole bunch of people calling themselves Christians have disagreed with you, and have used the Bible to justify slavery. So apparently, religious texts are open to interpretation.

The Bible has a whole comprehensive section on the treatment of slaves, (Exodus 21) so you can't really blame people for thinking that slavery was a-ok.

Read my last post. I can try to justify my taste for chocolate using Buddhism, but that doesn't mean that Buddhism is about eating chocolate. If you can't prove that the Bible supports the kind of slavery that the US used to have in place, your words are nothing but empty words.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are you kidding me?

"Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession." (Exodus 21:16)

When the sentence mentions selling the kidnapped person, what do you think it is talking about? This passage is totally about slave trading. The ancient Israelites had serfs (or slaves, although serf is a more proper word) but unlike the US slave traders they didn't go around kidnapping people in other places to treat them as beasts. In ancient Israel, slaves could inherit their master's properties, had one day off per week, could not be killed, and could not be raped. Returning fugitive slaves to their masters was also against the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 23:15-16). Christianity teaches that slaves and freemen are equal before God:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

"knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free." (Ephesians 6:8)"

And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him." (Ephesians 6:9)

"a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)

The Bible says that a slave trader is as much of a sinner as a fornicator, a homosexual, a false witness, or a liar:

"the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine," (1 Timothy 1:10)

To summarize, I don't know what kind of horrendous things you people have done there in the US. All I know is that it didn't have anything to do with Christianity, despite your claims to the contrary.

Again, those affirm slavery, not condemn it.

 

[Crypto2015]

Again, those affirm slavery, not condemn it.

I see that you have no arguments anymore. Now you just deny the most obvious truths without providing any evidence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Are you kidding me?

"Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper's possession." (Exodus 21:16)

When the sentence mentions selling the kidnapped person, what do you think it is talking about? This passage is totally about slave trading. The ancient Israelites had serfs (or slaves, although serf is a more proper word) but unlike the US slave traders they didn't go around kidnapping people in other places to treat them as beasts. In ancient Israel, slaves could inherit their master's properties, had one day off per week, could not be killed, and could not be raped. Returning fugitive slaves to their masters was also against the Law of Moses (Deuteronomy 23:15-16). Christianity teaches that slaves and freemen are equal before God:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

"knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free." (Ephesians 6:8)"

And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him." (Ephesians 6:9)

"a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all. (Colossians 3:11)

The Bible says that a slave trader is as much of a sinner as a fornicator, a homosexual, a false witness, or a liar:

"the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine," (1 Timothy 1:10)

To summarize, I don't know what kind of horrendous things you people have done there in the US. All I know is that it didn't have anything to do with Christianity, despite your claims to the contrary.

Despite your attempt to dismiss and/or ignore the ancient slave trade described in the Bible, none of the above applies to non-Jewish slaves.

"“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." -Leviticus 25:44-45

 

[Crypto2015]

Despite your attempt to dismiss and/or ignore the ancient slave trade described in the Bible, none of the above applies to non-Jewish slaves.

"“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." -Leviticus 25:44-45

The only thing that does not apply to non-Hebrew slaves or serfs is the general freeing of the slaves that had to take place every seven years (and every 49 years as well). All of the other things apply both to Hebrews and non-Hebrews.

"The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." (Leviticus 19:34)

"You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.'" (Leviticus 24:22)

 

[SkepticThinker]

Read my last post. I can try to justify my taste for chocolate using Buddhism, but that doesn't mean that Buddhism is about eating chocolate. If you can't prove that the Bible supports the kind of slavery that the US used to have in place, your words are nothing but empty words.

No, no. All I have to do is show that the Bible is open to interpretation, which is what you have denied. And yet, it is obvious that the Bible is open to interpretation given the reasons I mentioned. The first was that there are thousands of different denominations of Christianity in existence. The second was that some Christians have used the Bible to justify slavery and some have used the Bible to condemn slavery. It seems rather odd that it can work both ways like that if the Bible is NOT open to interpretation, don't you think?

 

[SkepticThinker]

The only thing that does not apply to non-Hebrew slaves or serfs is the general freeing of the slaves that had to take place every seven years (and every 49 years as well). All of the other things apply both to Hebrews and non-Hebrews.

"The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God." (Leviticus 19:34)

"You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.'" (Leviticus 24:22)

Only the most important part. The freedom part. No big deal then! So they just had to remain slaves for life, but you're telling me that the Bible doesn't support slavery (as in, the OWNING of other human beings as property)??

Shadow Wolf has already pointed out the other important stuff.

 

[Crypto2015]

No, no. All I have to do is show that the Bible is open to interpretation, which is what you have denied. And yet, it is obvious that the Bible is open to interpretation given the reasons I mentioned. The first was that there are thousands of different denominations of Christianity in existence. The second was that some Christians have used the Bible to justify slavery and some have used the Bible to condemn slavery. It seems rather odd that it can work both ways like that if the Bible is NOT open to interpretation, don't you think?

It does not work both ways. The anti-slavery spirit of the Bible is clear. Dishonest people have tried to pervert the message of the Bible to justify their greediness, but since by doing so they were acting against the teachings of Christianity, they are transgressors and not true exponents of Christianity. Have you ever read this?

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free," (Luke 4:18)

If someone does not understand, from that passage alone, that the Bible is against slavery, that someone is either dishonest or mentally challenged.

 

[Crypto2015]

Only the most important part. The freedom part. No big deal then! So they just had to remain slaves for life, but you're telling me that the Bible doesn't support slavery (as in, the OWNING of other human beings as property)??

Shadow Wolf has already pointed out the other important stuff.

Slavery in the US was not the same as Old Testament serfdom. Those people were serfs for life. However, they could buy their freedom from their masters and even inherit their masters' property if the masters had no heirs. The law of Moses was a tough law for rough people, but as I have already explained it was not meant to be permanent as a legal code.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It does not work both ways. The anti-slavery spirit of the Bible is clear. Dishonest people have tried to pervert the message of the Bible to justify their greediness, but since by doing so they were acting against the teachings of Christianity, they are transgressors and not true exponents of Christianity. Have you ever read this?

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free," (Luke 4:18)

If someone does not understand, from that passage alone, that the Bible is against slavery, that someone is either dishonest or mentally challenged.

It does work both ways, as has been demonstrated. So yes, the Bible is open to varying interpretations - I'm not sure why you've even bothered to argue against something so obvious. The Christians who, in the past had tried to justify slavery using Biblical passages, were probably just as sincere in their approach to Biblical interpretation as you are. They just came to a different conclusion than you do.

I have no idea what "anti-slavery" spirit you are talking about in regards to the Bible. In fact, it appears rather pro-slavery given that it goes into a fair amount of detail on the subject of owning other human beings as property. Seems an odd thing for god to get into if he doesn't condone such actions, especially when this god apparently has no problem at all making all kinds of other unambiguous commandments. It appears that the dishonest or mentally challenged bit is coming from your end of the argument. Where is the commandment from god condemning the slave trade as he so easily condemns worshiping other gods and other such terrible offences?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Slavery in the US was not the same as Old Testament serfdom. Those people were serfs for life. However, they could buy their freedom from their masters and even inherit their masters' property if the masters had no heirs. The law of Moses was a tough law for rough people, but as I have already explained it was not meant to be permanent as a legal code.

I've heard this one before.

The Bible clearly describes the owning of other human beings as property.

 

[metis]

I've heard this one before.

The Bible clearly describes the owning of other human beings as property.

Not entirely as slaves in eretz Israel had rights, such as not being worked on the Sabbath, being fed properly, etc.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I see that you have no arguments anymore. Now you just deny the most obvious truths without providing any evidence.

You are the one who keeps saying the Bible doesn't allow slavery, but the only passages you post are ones that affirm slavery, not condemn it, while the passages I quote directly support slavery as they allow slavery, are laws regarding treatment of slaves, and passages telling slaves to obey.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not entirely as slaves in eretz Israel had rights, such as not being worked on the Sabbath, being fed properly, etc.

Are they considered the property of another human being?