Twelve year old commits suicide -- because he was taunted for being gay.

[Colt]

Humans can be especially cruel to kind people. The religious are no exception! We have a God who has experienced this firsthand.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Its sad that this happened but I don't think we are getting the full story. In ny opinion there is more to it than "gay child kills himself because of religious bullying".

-He was teased about wearing the same clothes everyday, probably teased by even non-religious.
-He painted his fingernails pink(is that more trans than gay?) and was probably teased by even non-religious.
-If you aren't religious you won't care about hell.
-He is 12 years old..he was probably confused. How does a 12 year old know if he is gay, straight, trans,,?
-How did he commit suicide? Was it by something his parents left laying around?
Etc etc.

To blame it on him being being gay and teased by the religious saying you're going to hell, in my opinion isn't the full story.

That is quite possible... thanks for thinking outside of the box.

That's quite sad, @We Never Know. You appear to be making excuses for no apparent reason -- and suggesting that maybe it was "other things" which are somehow okay to tease a child to death for.

Kids can be cruel, no doubt about that. But I know a lot of kids who have been properly brought up, and who know that cruelty to others is wrong. And many of them are not being brought up religious.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

According to that: "The parents said their son never put any blame on anyone". If he didn't do so, why should we? Do you know better than him? It is sad obviously, if someone thinks it is a good idea to commit suicide, but perhaps we shouldn't imagine the reasons.

Also, if people tell "you go to hell, because of...", shouldn't that, if the person really believes it, make the person want to be alive, to avoid the hell?

?

 

[Suave]

A grade 7 student in Shelbyville, Tennessee, took his own life on November 28. He did it because he was constantly being taunted -- for being gay, and for not being religious. Constantly told that he was going to Hell because "Jesus hates you."

And now he's dead. If this is so, then I think it is something that casts a black shadow on religion that needs to be discussed.

There is, however, another really interesting part of this little news item -- I can only find it in the BRITISH PRESS. Nobody in America, it seems, thinks it's important enough to comment on!.

What am I missing about this? Is this a fake story -- as I mentioned, I can find nothing in mainstream press, and I don't want to be accused of spreading misinformation, so any assistance from members would be greatly appreciated.

Perhaps bullying somebody over his sexual orientation should be considered as a form of sexual harassment; I'd like there to be a zero tolerance policy towards any type of sexual harassment on school grounds whereby students caught bullying a fellow student due to the bullied student's sexual orientation would face disciplinary action not less than in school suspension or expulsion from school for bullies who repeatedly sexually harass over a fellow student's sexual orientation. I'd like all students to be instructed on how not to be sexual harassers.

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps bullying somebody over his sexual orientation should be considered as a form of sexual harassment;

To have prohibitions against some kinds of harassment,
eg, sexual, racial, religious, but not against others, eg,
appearance, social skills....it all seems ridiculous.
Shouldn't all harassment be wrong? Otherwise it's
wrong to harass someone to death for one reason,
but not for another.

 

[Kenny]

That's quite sad, @We Never Know. You appear to be making excuses for no apparent reason -- and suggesting that maybe it was "other things" which are somehow okay to tease a child to death for.

Kids can be cruel, no doubt about that. But I know a lot of kids who have been properly brought up, and who know that cruelty to others is wrong. And many of them are not being brought up religious.

I didn't read it as excuses but rather that it is much more complicated than just a position that it was done exclusively by religious people (however wrong it is).

And I didn't quite read that only religious people are brought up right as far as treating people nicely.

I must have missed those points.

My "out of the box" comment was just acknowledging that even those of no faith can be bullies too and that I am sure that it is much more complicated. No one has the corner on the market. I am sure that when homosexuals or atheists bully other people, you would be just as upset.

 

[savagewind]

What needs to be discussed? The idea that people who claim to be followers of the "Prince of Peace," Christ, could so depart from Christ's instruction to love one another that they could drive a child to suicide.

Isn't that at least a little obvious to you?

But, we do not know that the taunting came from Christians. I think not!

 

[Suave]

To have prohibitions against some kinds of harassment,
eg, sexual, racial, religious, but not against others, eg,
appearance, social skills....it all seems ridiculous.
Shouldn't all harassment be wrong? Otherwise it's
wrong to harass someone to death for one reason,
but not for another.

I agree that racial and religious harassment are also wrong and should not tolerated in the classroom. Of course, any disruptive behavior in class should not be tolerated. I remember being taunted for my lack of fashion wear at the preppy junior high school I attended. My parents at that time could only afford to buy me generic brand clothes or have me wear hand me downs.. Fortunately for me, my grandparents were around to help me out with buying Ralph Lauren Khakis and Polo shirts. ... I learned grandparents like to spoil their grandkids as a way of paying back their children for the times their children misbehaved. ... Once I fitted in well with the crowd, I didn't get teased. Some taunting is rectifiable by the taunted person conforming towards the desired customs and habits of his highly esteemed peers. However, somebody can't change his sexual orientation or race, this form of harassment is not so easily rectifiable as simply changing how somebody behaves or dresses.

 

[Quagmire]

That's quite sad, @We Never Know. You appear to be making excuses for no apparent reason -- and suggesting that maybe it was "other things" which are somehow okay to tease a child to death for.

Kids can be cruel, no doubt about that. But I know a lot of kids who have been properly brought up, and who know that cruelty to others is wrong. And many of them are not being brought up religious.

You know man, purposely twisting somebody's point in order to shame them into keeping their opinions to themselves is basically the same thing as telling them to shut up.

It's rude, unnecessarily personal, and if it gets to be a habit it's a rule 3 violation, because it's a form of bullying itself, ironically.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree that racial and religious harassment are also wrong and should not tolerated in the classroom. Of course, any disruptive behavior in class should not be tolerated. I remember being taunted for my lack of fashion wear at the preppy junior high school I attended. My parents at that time could only afford to buy me generic brand clothes or have me wear hand me downs.. Fortunately for me, my grandparents were around to help me out with buying Ralph Lauren Khakis and Polo shirts. ... I learned grandparents like to spoil their grandkids as a way of paying back their children for the times their children misbehaved. ... Once I fitted in well with the crowd, I didn't get teased. Some taunting is rectifiable by the taunted person conforming towards the desired customs and habits of his highly esteemed peers. However, somebody can't change his sexual orientation or race, this form of harassment is not so easily rectifiable as simply changing how somebody behaves or dresses.

Still, why protect some groups, but not others?
Ability to change shouldn't be a criterion to make
harassment OK, otherwise we could expect kids
to change their religion, or their dress (something
not always affordable. And many other things
cannot be changed. You can't make everyone
neurotypical, the same height, hair color, etc.

Suppose laws against murder were written based
upon race, gender, religion, etc.....what if someone
were left off the list....would it be OK to murder them?
Why have separate laws for people. If murder is
wrong, then make murder wrong for all. So make
harassment illegal for all. No need to specify who
gets the privilege of being protected.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You know man, purposely twisting somebody's point in order to shame them into keeping their opinions to themselves is basically the same thing as telling them to shut up.

It's rude, unnecessarily personal, and if it gets to be a habit it's a rule 3 violation, because it's a form of bullying itself, ironically.

I was not trying to shame anyone, I was responding to the things said. Things that I can relate to from personal experience. Here are the words that I was responding to:

-He was teased about wearing the same clothes everyday, probably teased by even non-religious.
-He painted his fingernails pink(is that more trans than gay?) and was probably teased by even non-religious.
-If you aren't religious you won't care about hell.
-He is 12 years old..he was probably confused. How does a 12 year old know if he is gay, straight, trans,,?
-How did he commit suicide? Was it by something his parents left laying around?
Etc etc.

I'm an old man, and I have a favourite, very comfortable hoodie that keeps my warm in my office -- office buildings have circulating air that can cause the elderly to feel cold all of the time. Should my fellows in the office be forgiven for ragging me about my choice?

I know people who paint their fingernails black, and other colours. Is pink a sufficient reason to allow taunting?

While not being religious may mean not caring about hell, it does not stop one from caring about the censure of the people around them. Words hurt. Trust me -- as a gay man, I know that all too well from the 1950s and 1960s -- and even up until today.

How does a 12 year old know he's gay? I've known since I was 7 -- and a child psychologist at the Ottawa Civic Hospital, when I was 8 (in 1956) wrote in his report that he knew it, too. The fact is, as the American Psychological Association has reported, kids (especially boys) know quite early on that they are attracted to members of their own sex, and not the other.

And what is the importance of "how did he commit suicide? Was it something his parents left lying around?" Would it be better if it were not something they left lying around? (In fact, he hanged himself. Just try getting rid of everything in everyday life that will make that impossible -- ropes, sheets, electric cords, etc. etc.

 

[Leahpolitan_icecream]

A grade 7 student in Shelbyville, Tennessee, took his own life on November 28. He did it because he was constantly being taunted -- for being gay, and for not being religious. Constantly told that he was going to Hell because "Jesus hates you."

And now he's dead. If this is so, then I think it is something that casts a black shadow on religion that needs to be discussed.

There is, however, another really interesting part of this little news item -- I can only find it in the BRITISH PRESS. Nobody in America, it seems, thinks it's important enough to comment on!.

What am I missing about this? Is this a fake story -- as I mentioned, I can find nothing in mainstream press, and I don't want to be accused of spreading misinformation, so any assistance from members would be greatly appreciated.

This is so sad
I think maybe religious bullying can be worse since it is like saying the universe hates you not just one person it has all this pretended authority behind it

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But, we do not know that the taunting came from Christians. I think not!

82% of everyone in Tennessee identifies as Christian.

 

[Suave]

Still, why protect some groups, but not others?
Ability to change shouldn't be a criterion to make
harassment OK, otherwise we could expect kids
to change their religion, or their dress (something
not always affordable. And many other things
cannot be changed. You can't make everyone
neurotypical, the same height, hair color, etc.

Suppose laws against murder were written based
upon race, gender, religion, etc.....what if someone
were left off the list....would it be OK to murder them?
Why have separate laws for people. If murder is
wrong, then make murder wrong for all. So make
harassment illegal for all. No need to specify who
gets the privilege of being protected.

I have no qualms with taunting ill-behaved misfits who won't listen to constructive criticism . For example, taunting of hygiene challenged persons who stink up the place. I want them to smell nice, not stimk up the place. When I was in fourth grade, there was this stinky classmate who looked like she had lice in hair. I tried telling her nicely, that she should please be more hygiene friendly. However, that did not get her to clean herself up. So then, I and some other classmates teased her about how stinky and filthy she was. We almost brought her to tears, but then she did learn cleanliness is the next best thing to godliness conforming to our desired outcome of having her not being obnoxiously odorful. Where we really so wrong to tease smelly Shelly n order to perhaps motivate her to practice good hygiene?

 

[Suave]

82% of everyone in Tennessee identifies as Christian.

Just because some people identify themselves as Christian, does not mean they rightfully follow the teachings of Jesus Christ who clearly taught Do unto others as you'd want them to do unto you. By the way, I seriously doubt most sixth graders think much about the golden rule.

 

[Revoltingest]

I have no qualms with taunting ill-behaved misfits who won't listen to constructive criticism . For example, taunting of hygiene challenged persons who stink up the place. I want them to smell nice, not stimk up the place. When I was in fourth grade, there was this stinky classmate who looked like she had lice in hair. I tried telling her nicely, that she should please be more hygiene friendly. However, that did not get her to clean herself up. So then, I and some other classmates teased her about how stinky and filthy she was. We almost brought her to tears, but then she did learn cleanliness is the next best thing to godliness conforming to our desired outcome of having her not being obnoxiously odorful. Where we really so wrong to tease smelly Shelly n order to perhaps motivate her to practice good hygiene?

Some respond to taunting by committing suicide.
What's the success rate vs failure rate for taunting?
I'd have to pass on the method.
Cruelty strikes me as loathsome.

 

[Suave]

Some respond to taunting by committing suicide.
What's the success rate vs failure rate for taunting?
I'd have to pass on the method.
Cruelty strikes me as loathsome.

I can't even image the guilt I would have felt had she killed herself because of our bullying her. I as a fourth grader did not even consider that possibility. Kids can be so cruel!

Jeremy spoke in class today.

 

[Revoltingest]

I can't even image the guilt I would have felt had she killed herself because of our bullying her. I as a fourth grader did not even consider that possibility. Kids can be so cruel!

I guarantee that I was far more clueless than
you were in 4th grade. Sensing what goes
on in the minds of others long eluded me.
I'm slightly better at it now.

 

[Quagmire]

I was not trying to shame anyone,

I believe you were.

I was responding to the things said.

No, you were reacting to them. There's a difference.

Things that I can relate to from personal experience. Here are the words that I was responding to:

And there's absolutely nothing in there to suggest that @We Never Know was making excuses for anyone.

I'm an old man, and I have a favourite, very comfortable hoodie that keeps my warm in my office -- office buildings have circulating air that can cause the elderly to feel cold all of the time. Should my fellows in the office be forgiven for ragging me about my choice?

Strawman.

I know people who paint their fingernails black, and other colours. Is pink a sufficient reason to allow taunting?

Also a strawman.

While not being religious may mean not caring about hell, it does not stop one from caring about the censure of the people around them. Words hurt. Trust me -- as a gay man, I know that all too well from the 1950s and 1960s -- and even up until today.

How does a 12 year old know he's gay? I've known since I was 7 -- and a child psychologist at the Ottawa Civic Hospital, when I was 8 (in 1956) wrote in his report that he knew it, too. The fact is, as the American Psychological Association has reported, kids (especially boys) know quite early on that they are attracted to members of their own sex, and not the other.

And what is the importance of "how did he commit suicide? Was it something his parents left lying around?" Would it be better if it were not something they left lying around? (In fact, he hanged himself. Just try getting rid of everything in everyday life that will make that impossible -- ropes, sheets, electric cords, etc. etc.

None of which adds up to "making excuses" for anything.

Far as I can see, all @We Never Know was doing was suggesting that there may have been motives related to the bullying that had nothing to do with religion. How does that amount to "making excuses"?

It's pretty muxh the same thing as this:

Thread title: "Man driving a ford pickup truck involved in drunken hit and run.

@We Never Know: "Do we know for a fact that it was a Ford"?

You: "I see, so you're saying it would be OK to run someone over if you do it in a Toyota"?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Just because some people identify themselves as Christian, does not mean they rightfully follow the teachings of Jesus Christ who clearly taught Do unto others as you'd want them to do unto you. By the way, I seriously doubt most sixth graders think much about the golden rule.

To your first point -- I've been saying the same thing for years. I know humanists (how I identify) who approve of the death penalty, which I find bizarre, but that's the way humans do, I suppose.

I was an extremely battered child, and from grade 3 up, I lived in an institution in Ottawa dedicated to helping kids like me, unable to relate because we had been so abused. And I can tell you, I learned the Golden Rule -- and understood how to apply it -- very early in my life. Certainly by the time I was 10.