Two Kinds of Salvation

[Scuba Pete]

What on earth has 2 Cor. 3:12 to do with the emotion of love that we cannot subject it to our Freewill?

This explains why your view is distorted. You don't understand how important love is to Christianity. If I were to pick one verse in the NT that encapsulates the entire message it would be Galatians 5:6

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
NIV

In fact, the entire book of Galatians is directed towards those who want to be legalistic. Especially concentrate on the fifth chapter with the different fruits.

 

[Kemosloby]

This explains why your view is distorted. You don't understand how important love is to Christianity. If I were to pick one verse in the NT that encapsulates the entire message it would be Galatians 5:6

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
NIV

In fact, the entire book of Galatians is directed towards those who want to be legalistic. Especially concentrate on the fifth chapter with the different fruits.

I get the impression the meaning of love has changed since the bible was written. It was more an action than an emotion in the bible days. Like giving food and clothes to the needy was an act of love. And the law boiled down means love your neighbor as yourself. So the law and love can coexist, when used correctly.

 

[savagewind]

I get the impression the meaning of love has changed since the bible was written. It was more an action than an emotion in the bible days. Like giving food and clothes to the needy was an act of love. And the law boiled down means love your neighbor as yourself. So the law and love can coexist, when used correctly.

Seeing that God is love I think that love your neighbor means to be doing God's will toward him or her.
Our Father in Heaven let YOUR will be done.
Faith is the evident demonstration of reality, but not observed reality. What I think this means is doing works but not consciously. The difference is slight, but profound, I think.
Today I will give to the poor.
Today I will do whatever God wills me to do.
Might it be to give to the poor? Maybe.
Might it be something else? Yes, but if you are doing your idea of how to love another person today you can't also be doing God's will for love today.
Trust in YHVH with ALL the heart and on understanding do not lean.
I understand that God's will for me is to assist a poor person. YOUR understanding.
I understand that to love God is to do the will of God. Must I know what it is to do it? No, for ἔλεγχος οὐ βλεπομένων. Proof not perceived.

2 Corinthians 4:18
2 Corinthians 5:7

 

[savagewind]

OK. Two ways to love.

1. I will give what I think is good to someone who I think needs it.
2. I will give what God knows is good to someone who God knows needs it.

Anyone can do it the first way.
Only with faith can a person do it the second way.

Proverbs 15:23 A man has joy in an apt answer, And how delightful is a timely word

Proverbs 25:11 Like apples of gold in settings of silver is a ruling rightly given

The heart of these people has grown dull.

God alone knows time and holy righteousness so Proverbs 15:23 and Proverbs 25:11 DOES apply.

 

[Scuba Pete]

the meaning of love has changed since the bible was written.

It's not that 'love' has changed, but we have def added some additional definitions to the word. The Greek had three distinct types of love: eros (love of a man for a woman), Philieo (brotherly love) and then Agape (Godly Love). We pile all of these onto one word and add 'prefer' as in 'I love popcorn', the number zero and the list goes on. So sure, it can be confusing but it's not impossible to understand.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Seeing that God is love I think that love your neighbor means to be doing God's will toward him or her.

You're over complicating it. Just meet the needs of others as you see them...

Philippians 2:1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. NIV

 

[savagewind]

You're over complicating it. Just meet the needs of others as you see them...

Philippians 2:1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. NIV

How do you know what another person needs? Maybe he needs disciple. Maybe he needs to be fed. Maybe he needs to be alone. Maybe he needs a friend. How do you know without God? I hear you saying we can get along just fine without God.

 

[Scuba Pete]

How do you know what another person needs?

Ask.

Maybe he needs disciple.

Ask!

Maybe he needs to be fed.

You could ask!

Maybe he needs to be alone.

So ask!

Maybe he needs a friend.

I might have mentioned this before, but have you ever thought about asking them?

How do you know without God? I hear you saying we can get along just fine without God.

Nonsense. I never said that. I just hear your excuse for not loving others.

Matthew 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ NIV

You don't need God to see the needs out there. You need his heart to do something about it.

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. NIV

 

[savagewind]

Ask.
Ask!
You could ask!
So ask!
I might have mentioned this before, but have you ever thought about asking them? Nonsense. I never said that. I just hear your excuse for not loving others.

Matthew 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ NIV

You don't need God to see the needs out there. You need his heart to do something about it.

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. NIV

What person do you know that when you ask him what can I do for you he will say, discipline me?
If a person needs to lose 100 pounds and you ask him what can you do for him and he says he would like a pizza, would you get him one?
What about an alcoholic? What can I do for you to show you that I love you? Can you get me a drink?

God knows the good a person needs.
I might think that on the forum some positive attention would show me love, but God knows I am better off ignored. I never came on here to post to be ignored, but it is working quite well for me!

 

[Scuba Pete]

What person do you know that when you ask him what can I do for you he will say, discipline me?

I've known a few actually.

The NT scriptures don't have any examples of 'forced' discipleship. It was all voluntary. Jesus called the apostles but he didn't force them to follow him. He, get this... wait for it... you know it's coming... ASKED them. Why do you want to do it differently?

 

[savagewind]

I've known a few actually.

The NT scriptures don't have any examples of 'forced' discipleship. It was all voluntary. Jesus called the apostles but he didn't force them to follow him. He, get this... wait for it... you know it's coming... ASKED them. Why do you want to do it differently?

Are you saying people know what they need so God isn't needed? Is God only for providing what you think you and other people need?

Is this true or false, according to you? Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it

and

Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Are you saying people know what they need so God isn't needed?

I often know I'm sick. If I'm smart, I seek a physician to heal me. If I don't I might die. Merely knowing I am sick or even what I'm sick of doesn't obviate the need for the physician.

You're stuck on me saying that God isn't needed. Why do you feel the need to put words in my mouth? You can't love without God. That's how the world knows we are disciples.

 

[savagewind]

I often know I'm sick. If I'm smart, I seek a physician to heal me. If I don't I might die. Merely knowing I am sick or even what I'm sick of doesn't obviate the need for the physician.

You're stuck on me saying that God isn't needed. Why do you feel the need to put words in my mouth? You can't love without God. That's how the world knows we are disciples.

I think you are saying God is not needed to know HOW to love.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I think you are saying God is not needed to know HOW to love.

This is a peculiar contention... I stated the following:

You can't love without God.

Yet, you suggest that I mean the exact opposite. I don't get the game at all. It's not like we're politicians where you have to destroy my credibility with outright distortions. Or is it?

 

[Ben Avraham]

This explains why your view is distorted. You don't understand how important love is to Christianity. If I were to pick one verse in the NT that encapsulates the entire message it would be Galatians 5:6

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
NIV

In fact, the entire book of Galatians is directed towards those who want to be legalistic. Especially concentrate on the fifth chapter with the different fruits.

Really! How do you explain the Christian love that caused the death of millions of Jews through pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and last but not least, the Holocaust? Did you know that Hitler was a born Catholic? Before you blame the Catholic Church, when Luther was consulted about the Jews, his answer was, "kill the dogs!" From the book "History of the Reformation."

 

[savagewind]

This is a peculiar contention... I stated the following:

Yet, you suggest that I mean the exact opposite. I don't get the game at all. It's not like we're politicians where you have to destroy my credibility with outright distortions. Or is it?

I said this:

Seeing that God is love I think that love your neighbor means to be doing God's will toward him or her.
Our Father in Heaven let YOUR will be done.

And this:

OK. Two ways to love.

1. I will give what I think is good to someone who I think needs it.
2. I will give what God knows is good to someone who God knows needs it.

Anyone can do it the first way.
Only with faith can a person do it the second way.

And you said this:

You're over complicating it. Just meet the needs of others as you see them...

I am saying to meet the needs of others AS GOD SEES THEM is Christ's way.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Really! How do you explain the Christian love

So, you have an agenda. Here I thought you wished to discuss views, but you're only trolling your bigotry instead.

There are plenty of warmongers throughout history who justify their heinous actions on their beliefs. Many of those happen to be Jewish and Christian but none ever appealed to love as their motive. Consequently, to suggest that love or understanding were the genesis of any of those wars is the height of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[savagewind]

@Scuba Pete do you read the Bible the same way as you read other people's posts?

 

[Scuba Pete]

I am saying to meet the needs of others AS GOD SEES THEM is Christ's way.

I get the need for legalism, but I can't recall a single scripture to support your caveat, can you? Simply put "meeting the needs of others is God's way".

‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ NIV

Look at the scripture closely... WHATEVER should stand out here. It doesn't employ your caveat simply because it doesn't need to. God honors all acts of love. In fact, all acts of love honor God. Don't get caught in the paralysis of analysis: ACT! LOVE! Love your kin. Love your friends. Love your detractors. Love your enemies. The more you love, the more God will guide you how to love.

 

[savagewind]

I get the need for legalism, but I can't recall a single scripture to support your caveat, can you? Simply put "meeting the needs of others is God's way".

‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ NIV

Look at the scripture closely... WHATEVER should stand out here. It doesn't employ your caveat simply because it doesn't need to. God honors all acts of love. In fact, all acts of love honor God. Don't get caught in the paralysis of analysis: ACT! LOVE! Love your kin. Love your friends. Love your detractors. Love your enemies. The more you love, the more God will guide you how to love.

I am not disagreeing with you. You are disagreeing with me.