Two Kinds of Salvation

[Scuba Pete]

The commands are to Discipleship

To disciple is to love. To be discipled is to be loved. Love and discipleship are integrated.

John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” NIV

If love isn't the answer, it's a pretty stupid question.

 

[savagewind]

Can you cite any scripture to support a difference between the two?
.

Sigh.

1"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.9"This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 1[YOU] Give us today our daily bread. 12And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

I remember a quote of Fred Rogers. (I looked, but I can't find it again). He said that he prays each day to be shown who he might help in love.

I hear you say, "ANYBODY".

So, is it your opinion that to pray to God to show me who and how is wrong?

 

[Scuba Pete]

salvific

Dude! That's such a legalistic term that it made me laugh out loud. Good job!

 

[savagewind]

To disciple is to love. To be discipled is to be loved. Love and discipleship are integrated.

John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” NIV

If love isn't the answer, it's a pretty stupid question.

OMG. I keep hearing that to disciple is to make disciples. LOL
Matthew 28:19

 

[Scuba Pete]

1"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them.

Do you give "grace" or "thanks" at meals? In light of this scripture, you may wish to rethink this especially at a restaurant.

Does this scripture say to never practice your righteousness in public? No. It says don't let your motivation be to "be seen by them".

I don't see anything I'm doing that violates this scripture. I've heard the 'Lord's Prayer' recited many, many times. I certainly don't see it as a caveat to love.

 

[Scuba Pete]

OMG. I keep hearing that to disciple is to make disciples. LOL

So, you disagree with John 13? You don't believe that this is Jesus' will? I know a lot of alleged disciples that want to be known for their intolerance, their rage against heathen, their narrow mindedness and their hate against various groups. I reject those and cling to love. You're free to do whatever else you want.

 

[savagewind]

Can you cite any scripture to support a difference between the two?
.

It does not take faith to love. Agree? The reason is that life is in God's image so to love comes naturally. Agree?

It is written that the love will grow cold. God's love? Of course not!

I am telling you the difference between the love that people show naturally which I believe in wholeheartedly and the love that God shows which certainly takes faith to show it.

Am I wrong?

 

[savagewind]

So, you disagree with John 13? You don't believe that this is Jesus' will? I know a lot of alleged disciples that want to be known for their intolerance, their rage against heathen, their narrow mindedness and their hate against various groups. I reject those and cling to love. You're free to do whatever else you want.

What in John 13 do you think I disagree with?

 

[savagewind]

So, you disagree with John 13? You don't believe that this is Jesus' will? I know a lot of alleged disciples that want to be known for their intolerance, their rage against heathen, their narrow mindedness and their hate against various groups. I reject those and cling to love. You're free to do whatever else you want.

I would call rejecting intolerance, rage, narrow mindedness and hate, reasonableness. Good for you!
I do not know why you seem to be putting me with their group.

 

[savagewind]

Jesus rebuked people. The Bible instructs us to actually rebuke people.

I agree with you, but I think it is the same as love*, God's way.

*By saying so I am not rebuffing love in general.

 

[Scuba Pete]

It does not take faith to love. Agree?

I do not agree...

Galatians 5:6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. NIV

Don't confuse affection for agape. Agape is a decision to put the needs of others above your own. The deeper we believe God, the deeper we love. In the Matthew 25 account we see the unthinkable. People who claim to believe are being judged by their lack of love and not their profession of belief. It's obvious from this parable that an atheist who acts on the Golden rule is far more a Christian than a professed Christian who does not.

If you don't like that, then your beef is with God and the scriptures and not with me. Reed James on beliefs for a great insight on works vs faith.

You can say you believe you have brakes in your car and crash if you're hesitant to use them. Or you can say nothing and stomp on them hard. Who's the real believer? In the same way, you can respond immediately to someone's need out of love or debate internally whether God wants you to do that or not. The former loves out of faith while the second loves only out of legalism.

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

That's been my mantra for quite some time.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Jesus rebuked people.

Who did Jesus rebuke? Legalistic teachers of the law. He never rebuked a sinner. Quite the opposite of today.

 

[Ben Avraham]

So, you have an agenda. Here I thought you wished to discuss views, but you're only trolling your bigotry instead.

There are plenty of warmongers throughout history who justify their heinous actions on their beliefs. Many of those happen to be Jewish and Christian but none ever appealed to love as their motive. Consequently, to suggest that love or understanding were the genesis of any of those wars is the height of intellectual dishonesty.

The wars reported by peoples taking possession of the land they wanted for some reason or another at that time, the Hebrews were but one of the groups. So it was not some thing of the nature of the Hebrew but of all peoples at that time looking for a place of their own to settle down. It was called migrations. The Hebrews were only a small group trying to stop with their nomadic life for a place of their own. There were many other larger groups trying to settle down in the land of Canaan, for instance. The success was with the strongest.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Really! How do you explain the Christian love that caused the death of millions of Jews through pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and last but not least, the Holocaust? Did you know that Hitler was a born Catholic? Before you blame the Catholic Church, when Luther was consulted about the Jews, his answer was, "kill the dogs!" From the book "History of the Reformation."

Oh! I got it! You do not deny the atrocities committed against the Jews throughout History. What you cannot stand is that we should complain for what we have gone through. Perhaps that we should behave as an animal without open our mouths. Too late for that attitude. The stronger we become, the easier it becomes for us to live.

 

[savagewind]

I do not agree...

Galatians 5:6 The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. NIV

Don't confuse affection for agape. Agape is a decision to put the needs of others above your own. The deeper we believe God, the deeper we love. In the Matthew 25 account we see the unthinkable. People who claim to believe are being judged by their lack of love and not their profession of belief. It's obvious from this parable that an atheist who acts on the Golden rule is far more a Christian than a professed Christian who does not.

If you don't like that, then your beef is with God and the scriptures and not with me. Reed James on beliefs for a great insight on works vs faith.

You can say you believe you have brakes in your car and crash if you're hesitant to use them. Or you can say nothing and stomp on them hard. Who's the real believer? In the same way, you can respond immediately to someone's need out of love or debate internally whether God wants you to do that or not. The former loves out of faith while the second loves only out of legalism.

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

That's been my mantra for quite some time.

Except maybe you do not hear me.
I haven't said you are wrong about love. I am saying there is a surpassing way. Young's Literal Translation
and desire earnestly the better gifts; and yet a far excelling way do I shew to you:

You say faith is needed for love and then you say an atheist who acts on the Golden Rule is far more a Christian than a professed Christian who does not and I agree with you, but what kind of faith does an atheist have, in your opinion?

 

[Scuba Pete]

You do not deny the atrocities committed against the Jews throughout History.

I don't deny any of the atrocities done to or by the Jews... or the Caucasions, or the Blacks, or the Various versions of Asians, or the Serbians, or the theists or the atheists and the list goes on and on. Call it what you will, a territorial imperative, war mongering, power plays: it simply doesn't matter. Karma is a bully. What goes around comes back at you and usually hurts a hell of a lot worse.

What I take exception to, is you blindly condemning any group without any tangible substantiation. You leapt to a biased conclusion from a faulty premise using failed stereotypes. It was nothing but bigotry and intellectual dishonesty on your part. You can assign all sorts of horrible motivations to me that you want but that doesn't make them true. It only shows that you don't want to deal with the real and substantial criticisms I leveled at your statements. Why not address the criticisms first rather than blather on and only embarrass yourself?

FWIW, I am part Jewish and lost relatives in Auschwitz. All genocide is deplorable no matter what genotype we are referring to.

 

[Scuba Pete]

what kind of faith does an atheist have, in your opinion?

Why not ask an atheist? I've got enough to worry about loving my neighbor who just might be an atheist.

 

[savagewind]

Why not ask an atheist? I've got enough to worry about loving my neighbor who just might be an atheist.

Strawman

 

[savagewind]

My husband is an atheist.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Strawman

Far from it. I don't like putting words into others' mouths. I'm about loving the world: not judging it. I got that from a savior I know.