Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Yes, your Logic would prove rightif you could provide me with someone who died twice. So, I am all ears!
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Two Kinds of Salvation
- Thread starter Ben Avraham
- Start date
Yes, your Logic would prove rightif you could provide me with someone who died twice. So, I am all ears!
I was hoping you wouldn't find that verse
but it is easily explained. You can become righteous if you can keep it perfectly all the time, and that is impossible. If you want to quote the NT, try Rom 3:23---ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. or Rom 3:10---There is NONE right, not even one. The same thought is echoed in Ps 14 & 53.One sin puts a spot on you and that makes you unacceptable as a sacrifice for sin- You will need a substitute---Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
There is only 1 way for sinners to become righteous. The same way Abraham did---he believe God. WE need to listen to Moses because he tells us what God says is sin, so we can try to avoid sinning. Knowledge of sin was the purpose of the law.
Rom 7:7 - What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know win except through the law; for I would not have to come to know coveting if the law had not said, "you shall not covet."
We also need to listen to Paul---...the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith(Gal 3:24).
and, ...For if a law had been given that could which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on the law---Gal 3:21
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Try to remember and let me know. Only then, I could help you clarifying what the text is talking about.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Evidence? This sounds like wishful thinking.
No, this is not evidence. He never said they were not their 'neighbors'. Of course due to the serial translations, we have lost the nuance. However, this scripture expresses it perfectly.
Matthew 25:40 The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' NIV
Last edited:
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
I was hoping you wouldn't find that verse
No one is perfect as there is no man upon earth who has done only good and never sinned. (Ecclesiastes 7:20) And that includes Jesus who was a man upon earth and has proved that text by breaking the Golden Rule 15 times only
in Mat. 23:13-33.
Behold the Prophets of the Most High who were inspired by HaShem to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:3, 20.
Yes, there is only one way if we listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) If you obey the Law you will never need to stand in a Court of Law.
That's the Law aka the Decalogue, Paul abolished against the will of Jesus to promote obedience to it.
There is no justification in faith not confirmed with the obedience of the Law.
If one obeys the laws he or she would enjoy a life without trouble.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Jesus was talking about the Jews, not Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5,6)
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Spiritually, water cannot wash away the sins of no one. Only repentance, restoration and return to the obedience of God's Law can save one of his or her sins. (Isaiah 1:18,19)
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
No man was created in the image of God. Why? Because God does not have an image. Jesus himself declared that
HaShem is a Spirit. (John 4:24) Spirits do not have images. To reflect an image, one has to be corporeal. Spirits are incorporeal emanations. Only HaShem is an incorporeal Being. (Isaiah 46:5)
I guess the tracks are pretty well covered by the two salvations game. I doubt it will lead to any agreements.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Well, we never know! The ways of men may seem right to them but with HaShem is the final judgment.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
In that verse it says in the org language, "Elohim". We were created in the image of the Elohim. It's not talking about GOD or Yahweh, but GOD in a multitude. Angels. We know this by Psalms 8 and other verses. "For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels" In Hebrew, it is Elohim, plural for Eloah. We were made in the image and likeness of the Elohim or angels. We have a mind that is capable of understanding spiritual things, animals cant do that. We have a mind that can (if we want) understand God's Word. The angels were here in the beginning with God, they helped in creation.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
Are we working on name #4?
Last edited:
Sadly some still think water baptism washes away our sins.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
So, what's the option, to break the Law as often as you can and end up in jail? No, thank you! I am happy with the serenity of the life I live.
The option is to agree the law is good and holy and righteous and good(Rom 7:12) and spiritual(Rom 7:14) and to joyfully concur with it (Rom 7:22) the keep the law in our heart where God checks for compliance. To treasure it in our heart like David did, so he would not sin against God. Go serve the law of God with our mind(Rom 7:25).
If you are happy with the sins in your life, that is fine with me. I am happy that God forgets ALL of my sins and removes them as far as the east is from the west.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
It doesn't say that. It doesn't infer that. Much to the Disciples continued dismay, Jesus loved everyone equally. Speak where the scriptures speak and be silent where the scriptures are silent. In other words, approach your study as an honest seeker. Don't use the scriptures to justify your beliefs, but rather to shape them. They were never meant to be a rule book and in fact Jesus condemned the Pharisees and other leaders for doing just this. Remember the admonition in Galatians 5: "The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."
You disconnected there. We were created in God's spiritual image. IOW, since God is love we were created to also be love. The implications are ginormous. The applications have been less than overwhelming. People are so hung up with their legalism and have missed the intended focus of love.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
All right! Are you sure you want me to speak what the NT says? No problem! Jesus did not like gentiles; much less if they were of the Samaritan kind. Every time he sent his disciples on a mission to spread the gospel of salvation, he would forbid them to take the way to the Gentiles, especially Samaritans if you read Mat. 10:5,6. Check it out and see if Jesus loved every one equally. "To justify my beliefs!" This is not my belief but rather yours. This is written in the NT, not in the Tanach. So, whenever you read the gospel of Paul aka the NT, try to absorb every thing, not only what pleases your Christian preconceived notions. Poor Pete! Jesus was a Pharisee too. A rabbi among the Pharisees. (John 3:1-3)
Regarding "spiritual image", that's a paradox. Spirits are incorporeal emanations and spirits cannot project an image.
At least, take what Jesus tells you about the identity of God as a Spirit. (John 4:24) Oh! So Christians were created to be love! HaShem have mercy on the Jews for the thousands of who have been murdered as a result of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, the Inquisition and last but not least, the Holocaust!
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
That doesn't mean he didn't "like" the Gentiles. This was a 'law' thing. In order to remove all stumbling blocks possible, he completely obeyed the law. Can you quote him condemning Gentiles or Samaritans? No. You can only find him condemning Pharisees and other religious leaders. You're assuming bigotry in Matthew 5, but there is nothing there to reveal just why he gave that command. Your assumptions go against lessons such as the good Samaritan and even the woman at the well.
Your beliefs (conclusions) are not written in the scriptures. You're arguing with the sign post and taking the wrong way home.
So, you're saying Jesus isn't love? That God is not Spirit? That there's no mental image of love? I disagree. When you see a man shooting another, do you see that as an image of love or of hate? The spirit of the man was displayed by his actions. James talks about love with skin on it. Jesus lived his life that way. Yeah, we were created in God's spiritual image. We were designed to love each other just as God loves us. Love, just like hate and even indifference, are seen in our actions. Yeah, most of us don't understand that and are quite uncomfortable with that concept. That doesn't make it untrue. This generation equates love to a feeling. God equates love to action. Bold, unselfish and sacrificial action. Love is only a decision away.
Ben Avraham
Well-Known Member
Where is it written that it was a law to exclude the Gentiles from a share in the gospel of salvation? Rather the opposite is true if you read Isaiah 42:6 that Israel was assigned as light unto the Gentiles. Jesus could not have condemned his own colleagues the Pharisees. You are simply making a huge mistake to let us know that Jesus was a sinner just like any other for having broken the Golden Rule 15 times only in that text of Matthew 23:13-33. And you are assuming bigotry in Matthew 23. Jesus gave that command to his disciples because he seemed to have a personal grudge to Gentiles, especially Samaritans. I wonder why but it is written in your own NT. What is said about the good Samaritan and the woman at the well was nothing more than a parable. Literally, the case never happened.