U.S. House approves bill banning transgender student athletes in girls sports

[Jimmy]

Nonsense, and this will be our last "discussion".

How is that nonsense? The solution is clear to me. Hopefully you’ll see it sooner than our lawmakers will.

 

[Jimmy]

Nonsense, and this will be our last "discussion".

Unfortunately it’s people like you who don’t see the solution that will make it take longer for the solution to go into effect.

 

[We Never Know]

When I use the term "sex" in this context, I am not referring to the sex act.

"I am not referring to the sex act."

Neither am I.

"Sex refers to “the different biological and physiological characteristics of males and females, such as reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc.” Gender refers to "the socially constructed characteristics of women and men"

Sex and gender - Gender Matters - www.coe.int

www.coe.int

 

[metis]

"I am not referring to the sex act."

Neither am I.

"Sex refers to “the different biological and physiological characteristics of males and females, such as reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc.” Gender refers to "the socially constructed characteristics of women and men"

Sex and gender - Gender Matters - www.coe.int

www.coe.int

I use the terms interchangeably, although maybe I shouldn't, so this is where our disconnect seems to be.

 

[Callisto]

Those that are transgender are usually on hormone suppressants and/or have had surgery with their privates. If what you say were to be true, then there wouldn't be a problem, thus not an "issue"-- but there is.

Surgery doesn't change a person's biological sex, it simply alters the appearance of their genitalia. Athletes don't compete in the nude so this isn't an issue. Some sports gear like athletic cups obscures the area they protect, making privates indiscernible. And leagues can always modify gear and uniform requirements to accommodate athletes if it's necessary (e.g., permitting swimmers on a men's team a choice of swim trunks or a one-piece swimsuit).

Likewise, sports organizations can add to or revise existing requirements regarding what range one's hormone levels need to be in order to compete. E.g. a male who identifies as a man might have low testosterone (as in male hypogonadism), his levels will be in the same range as a transwoman on cross-sex hormones. If the biological male is allowed to compete, there's no reason a transwoman wouldn't be allowed on the team as well. If that range is considered too low, both of them would have to consider alternatives or accept that they don't qualify.

Edit - sentence appeared twice, removed it.

 

[metis]

Surgery doesn't change a person's biological sex, it simply alters the appearance of their genitalia.

Of course it doesn't, but when one says "biological sex", the problem is that genitalia is only one factor, and when it comes to sexual attraction, it is usually weaker than the hormonal levels.

Also, the reaction to varying hormonal levels is not uniform, thus even relying on that is problematic. One of the women I dated when doing my undergrad studies was very muscular as she was into gymnastics and other sports and could probably kick the butts of most male students at the university. And I know for a fact she was very much a female, let me tell ya.

 

[Callisto]

Of course it doesn't, but when one says "biological sex", the problem is that genitalia is only one factor, and when it comes to sexual attraction, it is usually weaker than the hormonal levels.

Sexual attraction is irrelevant to the issue, though. There have always been athletes of gay/bi/pan/non sexual orientation who identify with their biological sex and compete in the division that's for their sex.

Also, the reaction to varying hormonal levels is not uniform, thus even relying on that is problematic. One of the women I dated when doing my undergrad studies was very muscular as she was into gymnastics and other sports and could probably kick the butts of most male students at the university. And I know for a fact she was very much a female, let me tell ya.

I specifically stated, "sports organizations can add to or revise existing requirements regarding what range one's hormone levels need to be in order to compete." Just as in requirements pertaining to weight, athletes need to fall within a range in order to compete within a specific weight class.

 

[Friend of Mara]

This is a question for the people who are hardline against trans women in women's sports. IF it was agreed that trans women never ever ever played a sport again with a cis woman would you trade that for giving trans people equal rights under the law in all the other circumstances that would grant dignity and quality of life befitting the expectations generally attained by the citizenry of their home countries? Or is not not about sports?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

This is a question for the people who are hardline against trans women in women's sports. IF it was agreed that trans women never ever ever played a sport again with a cis woman would you trade that for giving trans people equal rights under the law in all the other circumstances that would grant dignity and quality of life befitting the expectations generally attained by the citizenry of their home countries? Or is not not about sports?

I'm reluctant to answer this, as I'm a long way off being hardline against trans women in women's sport. In general terms I am for allowing trans inclusion where possible to do safely, and without undue prejudice for women's competition (undue of course being quite subjective) But I am for sports-specific controls, so...

I struggle to think of many circumstances at all where I don't support equal rights under the law for trans people. My issue isn't about what rights I think trans people should have so much as it is trying to come to terms with how best to balance female and trans rights (in particular).

 

[metis]

Sexual attraction is irrelevant to the issue, though. There have always been athletes of gay/bi/pan/non sexual orientation who identify with their biological sex and compete in the division that's for their sex.

Hormones have an effect on body development, so it's not just an either/or thingy.

I specifically stated, "sports organizations can add to or revise existing requirements regarding what range one's hormone levels need to be in order to compete." Just as in requirements pertaining to weight, athletes need to fall within a range in order to compete within a specific weight class.

Just let them compete, which may not be possible by creating multiple divisions. You've made yourself clear, and I have made myself clear, so there's nothing more to cover.

 

[Estro Felino]

This is a question for the people who are hardline against trans women in women's sports. IF it was agreed that trans women never ever ever played a sport again with a cis woman would you trade that for giving trans people equal rights under the law in all the other circumstances that would grant dignity and quality of life befitting the expectations generally attained by the citizenry of their home countries? Or is not not about sports?

If trans women were perfectly equivalent to ciswomen, they wouldn't have to be considered a minority and so different than the great majority (ciswomen).
Transwomen are a minority and in a particularly disadvantaged situation because they weren't as lucky as ciswomen.
They were born with a different sex apparatus than ciswomen.
So, you can't let them compete with other ciswomen because that would eliminate the state of disadvantage recognized by the law.

 

[metis]

I think we should remember that there are some girls/women who are playing some contact sports with boys/men.

Let all play, imo.

 

[pearl]

Let all play, imo.

I would agree except in some women's sports there may be an unfair advantage because of the strength of the trans in some circumstances.

 

[Callisto]

Hormones have an effect on body development, so it's not just an either/or thingy.

Just let them compete, which may not be possible by creating multiple divisions. You've made yourself clear, and I have made myself clear, so there's nothing more to cover.

Yes, hormones have an effect which is why sports are divided between the sexes, male bodies develop differently from female bodies.

No one said transgender persons can't compete, it simply needs to be fair for all concerned and having biological males in a division for biological females is not fair.

No one's forcing you to post.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Yes, hormones have an effect which is why sports are divided between the sexes, male bodies develop differently from female bodies.

No one said transgender persons can't compete, it simply needs to be fair for all concerned and having biological males in a division for biological females is not fair.

I think it would be even more fair if divisions were based on ability to compete rather than gender at all. For instance, take the average swim times and place them in competitive levels. This way, people are competing against people of all demographics. After that, if other divisions want to matched up, create subdivisions.

 

[metis]

I would agree except in some women's sports there may be an unfair advantage because of the strength of the trans in some circumstances.

If push came to shove, I believe that trans should be able to compete for reasons I've previously stated. We have high school wrestlers who are mixed. My main point is that they should not be left out, imo.

 

[averageJOE]

This is a question for the people who are hardline against trans women in women's sports. IF it was agreed that trans women never ever ever played a sport again with a cis woman would you trade that for giving trans people equal rights under the law in all the other circumstances that would grant dignity and quality of life befitting the expectations generally attained by the citizenry of their home countries? Or is not not about sports?

Rights? Yes.
But playing sports is not a "right". It has been and will always be a privilege. A child has the RIGHT to eat a school lunch, but not the RIGHT to play on the football team. The privilege to play on the football team has to be earned with good grades, as well as pass a physical. Yes, everyone has the right to try out for the team, but teams are not legally obligated to accept anyone even if they are a prodigy.

 

[metis]

I think it would be even more fair if divisions were based on ability to compete rather than gender at all. For instance, take the average swim times and place them in competitive levels. This way, people are competing against people of all demographics. After that, if other divisions want to matched up, create subdivisions.

Yes, that also could be an acceptable compromise, imo.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think it would be even more fair if divisions were based on ability to compete rather than gender at all. For instance, take the average swim times and place them in competitive levels. This way, people are competing against people of all demographics. After that, if other divisions want to matched up, create subdivisions.

That wouldn't work at higher levels, where prestigious
medals are won, & world records are set. (It won't
work at many lower levels either, but we'll skip that
for now.)
World & national records are easy to address, ie, cis
& trans women would compete in the same events,
but results would be categorized into cis & trans.
The Olympics poses a problem because of the medals'
importance. It might even require duplicate medals
for cis & trans women competing in the same event.

My goal here is to maximize inclusion while minimizing
unfairness to cis competitors. Avoid separating cis &
trans women into different events cuz it would smack
of the old "separate but equal" debacle.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I'm reluctant to answer this, as I'm a long way off being hardline against trans women in women's sport. In general terms I am for allowing trans inclusion where possible to do safely, and without undue prejudice for women's competition (undue of course being quite subjective) But I am for sports-specific controls, so...

I struggle to think of many circumstances at all where I don't support equal rights under the law for trans people. My issue isn't about what rights I think trans people should have so much as it is trying to come to terms with how best to balance female and trans rights (in particular).

Fair answer. Admittedly I am extremely vested in trans issues. But trans women being able to play in women's sports is at the very very very very very very very very very very very very bottom of that list of trans issues I care about. Literally every other trans issue is more important. Every time I see this debate its usually just used as a crowbar to start the conversation against trans rights more broadly.