U.S. House approves bill banning transgender student athletes in girls sports

[Friend of Mara]

If trans women were perfectly equivalent to ciswomen, they wouldn't have to be considered a minority and so different than the great majority (ciswomen).
Transwomen are a minority and in a particularly disadvantaged situation because they weren't as lucky as ciswomen.
They were born with a different sex apparatus than ciswomen.
So, you can't let them compete with other ciswomen because that would eliminate the state of disadvantage recognized by the law.

Not gonna lie. Your post made no sense. You want another crack at it?

 

[Friend of Mara]

Rights? Yes.
But playing sports is not a "right". It has been and will always be a privilege. A child has the RIGHT to eat a school lunch, but not the RIGHT to play on the football team. The privilege to play on the football team has to be earned with good grades, as well as pass a physical. Yes, everyone has the right to try out for the team, but teams are not legally obligated to accept anyone even if they are a prodigy.

So you would agree to take medical consensus on gender affirming care that has been established for several years for both minors and adults. Agree that gender affirming care helps the mentality of those that wish to transition lead better healthier lives. Social acceptance of people regardless of gender identity is a good goal to have and respect for the individual should be based on character. And we should codify into law gender identity as a protected status such as race, sexuality and nationality.

 

[averageJOE]

So you would agree to take medical consensus on gender affirming care that has been established for several years for both minors and adults. Agree that gender affirming care helps the mentality of those that wish to transition lead better healthier lives. Social acceptance of people regardless of gender identity is a good goal to have and respect for the individual should be based on character. And we should codify into law gender identity as a protected status such as race, sexuality and nationality.

I'm all for my body, my choice. On every aspect. Live and let live. I don't care if someone want to tattoo their eyeballs. I support adults making their own choices for their bodies. People who make these decisions need to understand and accept the fact that after making said decisions that certain doors in life will be closed on you. Because nothing you just said has anything to do with playing sports.

 

[Friend of Mara]

I'm all for my body, my choice. On every aspect. Live and let live. I don't care if someone want to tattoo their eyeballs. I support adults making their own choices for their bodies. People who make these decisions need to understand and accept the fact that after making said decisions that certain doors in life will be closed on you. Because nothing you just said has anything to do with playing sports.

Yes. I was just clarifying something. I care very much about trans rights. I honestly don't care that much about trans women being able to play sports. Less so about trans women in professional sports. Overall I think it has been an incredible tool used by bigots as a foothold to fight trans rights more generally rather than a legitimate issue to begin with so its not something I ever even want to fight people on. I like to skip past that. Assuming I agree as a tradeoff is there anything else that you think trans people should be barred from? Because that is the more pressing issue. Because I did notice you said "doors" not "door".

 

[averageJOE]

Yes. I was just clarifying something. I care very much about trans rights. I honestly don't care that much about trans women being able to play sports. Less so about trans women in professional sports. Overall I think it has been an incredible tool used by bigots as a foothold to fight trans rights more generally rather than a legitimate issue to begin with so its not something I ever even want to fight people on. I like to skip past that. Assuming I agree as a tradeoff is there anything else that you think trans people should be barred from? Because that is the more pressing issue. Because I did notice you said "doors" not "door".

If you want to talk about trans rights, I would suggest another thread. This one is specifically about trangender in sports. Which is why this isn't the thread to debate other things transgender should be barred from.

I used doorS because I was speaking of the multiple decisionS a person can make for their own body. I used one example of tattooing your eyeballs. If one did, I support your right and decision to do so, just don't expect to get a job as a kindergarten teacher.

 

[Friend of Mara]

If you want to talk about trans rights, I would suggest another thread. This one is specifically about trangender in sports. Which is why this isn't the thread to debate other things transgender should be barred from.

I used doorS because I was speaking of the multiple decisionS a person can make for their own body. I used one example of tattooing your eyeballs. If one did, I support your right and decision to do so, just don't expect to get a job as a kindergarten teacher.

To be fair I'm not trying to debate trans rights outside of the sports things here. What I am trying to determine is how much of this is specific to the sports things and how much of this is beyond the sports thing. As this changes the dynamic completely and seems to be both a fair concern and within the bounds of this thread is it not?

 

[averageJOE]

To be fair I'm not trying to debate trans rights outside of the sports things here. What I am trying to determine is how much of this is specific to the sports things and how much of this is beyond the sports thing. As this changes the dynamic completely and seems to be both a fair concern and within the bounds of this thread is it not?

That would be called "moving the goal posts".

 

[Friend of Mara]

That would be called "moving the goal posts".

From where?

 

[metis]

Yes. I was just clarifying something. I care very much about trans rights. I honestly don't care that much about trans women being able to play sports. Less so about trans women in professional sports. Overall I think it has been an incredible tool used by bigots as a foothold to fight trans rights more generally rather than a legitimate issue to begin with so its not something I ever even want to fight people on. I like to skip past that. Assuming I agree as a tradeoff is there anything else that you think trans people should be barred from? Because that is the more pressing issue. Because I did notice you said "doors" not "door".

I 100% agree with you.

Let me draw a parallel if I may.

On the college football field, a 190-pound quarterback can get sacked by a 350-pound defensive tackle and, yes, sometimes they may be hurt. Somethings like that can happen in hockey as my grandson found out. My 2nd oldest granddaughter broke her radius and ulna in gymnastics.

My point is that sports is always a bit risky when it comes to injury, and I have some leftover physical issues with my being in both high school and college gymnastics. It didn't stop me, and I'd do it all over again in a heartbeat. Even today I'm walking with a bit of a limp from walking for exercise this morning with torn meniscus and cartilage and a hairline fracture with my femur, and I'm 78 years of age and ain't gonna stop walking and working in our high-labor yard.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Fair answer. Admittedly I am extremely vested in trans issues. But trans women being able to play in women's sports is at the very very very very very very very very very very very very bottom of that list of trans issues I care about. Literally every other trans issue is more important. Every time I see this debate its usually just used as a crowbar to start the conversation against trans rights more broadly.

I agree with your last point.

Small amount of background you can freely ignore if you wish.
I coach girls junior basketball at a reasonably high level in Australia. There has been a recent controversy over a transgender athlete trying to get permission to play at the sub elite level (ie. Second highest league in Australia - NBL1)

It's made for some fairly ugly spats between Australian basketballers like Andrew Bogut (on the anti side) and Anneli Maley (on the pro side).

In general, my sympathies and the side I'd like to be on is the pro side. I love local community sports at its best. I've seen what it's done for my daughter's in terms of body image and what their heroes look like, and I feel so much more secure in them idolising strong, physical women. I can only imagine the positive impact a trans role model could have for a whole raft of kids.

At the same time, I'm heavily involved in the sport and every step up the ladder is competitive. If a trans athlete makes the sub elite team, or an elite team, that's someone else who doesn't. You're talking about a couple of hundred spaces in Australia at the sub elite level, maybe half that at the elite level.

So, I'm in favour of trans inclusion at lower levels, where athletes are graded based on ability, where it isn't their livelihood, and where there are more spots (upto state level basically). But I struggle to accept it to some degree past that. The best I can come to is that it should be decided case by case. But there are lots of things which make that somewhat less than ideal, including the controversy that will probably provoke repetitively, and the uncertain position it leaves trans athletes in.

It also leaves me loosely 'aligned' with what I'd see as dark forces at times, something which I find quite distasteful. But that's where I am currently. Still trying to educate myself on the issue, at least within the limited frame of basketball.