Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Magic Man]

The presidential elections were scheduled for March 31st, but they will not be held.
And please, spare me the martial law thing: a wartime can even last twenty years. That would make twenty years of martial law.
And by the way, martial law is itself, dictatorship, because there is no democratic vote.

Look at Russia. They are at war, but they still held elections.

Oh, the irony. "Look at Russia." Yes, look at the totally completely definitely legitimate elections held in Russia. I mean, winning 88% of the vote can't be anything other than legitimate, right?

 

[Estro Felino]

Oh, the irony. "Look at Russia." Yes, look at the totally completely definitely legitimate elections held in Russia. I mean, winning 88% of the vote can't be anything other than legitimate, right?

I have always denounced the double standards. Maybe I speak an incomprehensible language...but we Europeans are not able to understand what kind of standard is applied by the US in its relations with European countries. European nation states.
Let's try visual.

 

[Stevicus]

Who did it, then?
Morgan le Fay?

One simple question: would you cut off your own penis?

Because that's what the Russians allegedly did: they cut off their vital source of economic support from Germany.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that analogy, but there have been times when a country might resort to a "scorched earth" policy in times of war. When the Nazis invaded the USSR, the Soviets carried that out as they retreated, blowing up bridges, destroying infrastructure, railroads - so the Nazis wouldn't be able to use it.

I'm not saying that's what they did here, but it wouldn't be unprecedented if they did.

 

[Magic Man]

I have always denounced the double standards. Maybe I speak an incomprehensible language...but we Europeans are not able to understand what kind of standard is applied by the US in its relations with European countries. European nation states.
Let's try visual.


View attachment 93627

First, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with my post. I was pointing out that you're decrying Ukraine's lack of election, as if it's a sign of dictatorship. Meanwhile, you vociferously sing the praises of one of the biggest dictators in the world in Putin, while pointing to their elections, as if they're somehow a shining example of legitimacy, when they are the opposite. And then to claim you're pushing back against double standards while displaying your own double standard is rich.

Second, The actual support in Donbas for separation from Ukraine was fringe before Russia began backing them and providing military support.

Third, you'll have to give some evidence of America's involvement with Donbas.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that analogy, but there have been times when a country might resort to a "scorched earth" policy in times of war. When the Nazis invaded the USSR, the Soviets carried that out as they retreated, blowing up bridges, destroying infrastructure, railroads - so the Nazis wouldn't be able to use it.

I'm not saying that's what they did here, but it wouldn't be unprecedented if they did.

Okay...but Americans had been threatening to stop the construction of the Nordstream2 for years...much earlier than Russian invasion.
So...it's the most announced and the most predictable sabotage in world history.

 

[Estro Felino]

First, this has absolutely nothing at all to do with my post. I was pointing out that you're decrying Ukraine's lack of election, as if it's a sign of dictatorship. Meanwhile, you vociferously sing the praises of one of the biggest dictators in the world in Putin, while pointing to their elections, as if they're somehow a shining example of legitimacy, when they are the opposite.

That 88% doesn't surprise me at all. Because it's the West who did anything to push all Russians or nearly to vote for Putin.
By spreading this world-wide Russophobia, the Russians of any political hue have decided to vote for the only man who stood up against the Russophobic agenda imposed on us Europeans.

And I have news for you: Russians love us Italians, because they know we are forced to side with Zelensky. We are not free to decide.

And then to claim you're pushing back against double standards while displaying your own double standard is rich.

I have just one single standard.
People's right to self determination.
If Kosovars want to be independent because they speak Albanian. let them be independent.
If Donbas people want to be independent from Kiev, let them be independent,
One standard.

Second, The actual support in Donbas for separation from Ukraine was fringe before Russia began backing them and providing military support.

They did very well.
As Americans supported Kosovo against Serbia.
So did Russians against Ukraine.

Third, you'll have to give some evidence of America's involvement with Donbas.

The meme says that the US helped Ukraine fight against Donbas.

 

[Stevicus]

I have always denounced the double standards. Maybe I speak an incomprehensible language...but we Europeans are not able to understand what kind of standard is applied by the US in its relations with European countries. European nation states.
Let's try visual.


View attachment 93627

The thing is, the U.S. was practically founded on double-standards. The U.S. was founded by slaveowners who wanted to be free.

Of course, things have changed quite a bit since then, but as a country, there's always been this kind of weird and convoluted point of view which seems to take prevalence in how people approach the issues of the day. It's even become a popular trope, when one hears common phrases like "Do as I say, not as I do" and "Rules for thee, but not for me." It's also with religion, with its numerous contradictions and discrepancies. Some people just seem to get used to it, and the double standards don't seem to matter or register within their mindset.

 

[Estro Felino]

The thing is, the U.S. was practically founded on double-standards. The U.S. was founded by slaveowners who wanted to be free.

Of course, things have changed quite a bit since then, but as a country, there's always been this kind of weird and convoluted point of view which seems to take prevalence in how people approach the issues of the day. It's even become a popular trope, when one hears common phrases like "Do as I say, not as I do" and "Rules for thee, but not for me." It's also with religion, with its numerous contradictions and discrepancies. Some people just seem to get used to it, and the double standards don't seem to matter or register within their mindset.

It's politicians who apply double standards.
I believe American citizens behave very coherently. It's politicians who fail them all the time.

 

[Stevicus]

Okay...but Americans had been threatening to stop the construction of the Nordstream2 for years...much earlier than Russian invasion.
So...it's the most announced and the most predictable boycottage in world history.

I don't think very many Americans ever even knew nor cared that the Nordstream even existed. It's not the kind of thing that makes top headlines in U.S. news media. But maybe the oil company executives saw it differently. The oil business can be a bit tricky. It seems to lurk behind numerous military engagements, even while those engagements are presented as being caused by many other factors - except for oil.

 

[Magic Man]

That 88% doesn't surprise me at all. Because it's you Americans who did anything to push all Russians or nearly to vote for Putin.
By spreading this world-wide Russophobia, the Russians of any political hue have decided to vote for the only man who stood up against the Russophobic agenda imposed on us Europeans.

Yes, I realize you have fallen hard for Russian propaganda. Here's the actual reality, though:

Russia's elections are not in any way legitimate. There are so many indicators of that, but the one I pointed out is the easiest. Legitimate elections don't produce number like that, no matter how popular the figure.

It's not Americans who have pushed people to vote for Putin due to "Russophobia". Russia is a dictatorship. Putin has meddled in American and other elections and has spread massive amount of propaganda to further his own agenda. He is the one responsible for the rest of the world being wary of him and pushing back against his attempts to further his agenda.

And I have news for you: Russians love us Italians, because they know we are forced to side with Zelensky. We are not free to decide.

You like to talk in these generalities. Which Russians are these? Where did you hear about them?

Italians aren't forced to side with Zelensky. You don't. You're perfectly free to decided. You just don't like that your country officially sides against your own personal views.

I have just one single standard.
People's right to self determination.

Then you would completely oppose Putin and Russian elections. That's my point. You support Putin and his sham elections 100%, while decrying elections in other countries.

If Kosovars want to be independent because they speak Albanian. let them be independent.
If Donbas people want to be independent from Kiev, let them be independent,
One standard.

If it was just that simple, sure. But that's also a completely different topic that you brought up that is irrelevant to my point above.

And as I said, Donbas didn't want to be independent from the rest of Ukraine. A small contingent did, and then Russia got involved and backed them, creating the war it became.

They did very well.
As Americans supported Kosovo against Serbia.
So did Russians against Ukraine.

The meme says that the US helped Ukraine fight against Donbas.

Right, and you'll have to explain how.

 

[Stevicus]

It's politicians who apply double standards.
I believe American citizens behave very coherently. It's politicians who fail them all the time.

The American citizens are mostly just concerned with their own lives and their day-to-day struggles. They watch the news and see a lot of turmoil in the outside world, but they don't really know what to do about it and hope that their own government is looking out for their interests. It's the politicians' job to convince the people that that is what they are doing. That's where it starts to go south.

 

[Estro Felino]

You like to talk in these generalities. Which Russians are these? Where did you hear about them?

Italians have contacts with Russians 24 / 7.
I

If it was just that simple, sure. But that's also a completely different topic that you brought up that is irrelevant to my point above.

One standard applied for Kosovo and one another applied for Donbas?
Double standards.

And as I said, Donbas didn't want to be independent from the rest of Ukraine. A small contingent did, and then Russia got involved and backed them, creating the war it became.

Like in Kosovo. But a referendum ascertained they wanted to be with Russia.

Right, and you'll have to explain how.

Watch this,

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

One simple question: would you cut off your own penis?
Because that's what the Russians allegedly did: they cut off their vital source of economic support from Germany.

Russians like Putin are very capable of doing that if they thought it would help them accomplish their goals, yes.


PS: it wasn't that vital, actually. They were already shut down more often then not. Most people already assumed that they would not be turned on again for years. I sure did. Putin was busy with economic warfare, but letting the gas price sky rocket by cutting off supply. Hoping it would be disastrous enough to make it impossible, or at least far more difficult, to help Ukraine. Or at least to discourage. And if nothing else, just retaliation for the help already given. Blowing it up, also fits that tactic.

Not saying they did it. I think they didn't, actually.
But they sure would have had motive. As for opportunity... authoritarian / rich / powerful nations have no problem creating their own opportunities.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Okay...but Americans had been threatening to stop the construction of the Nordstream2 for years...

Because they understood how Europe was blindly walking right into an energy trap.
Europe learned an important lesson here: don't rely on corrupt dictators for vital things like energy.

They WILL use it against you the second they feel fit.

much earlier than Russian invasion.

That's what they were preventing against.... the point where Putin would go ahead and do something "Putinesk" and then use the energy leverage to blackmail the world economy.

So...it's the most announced and the most predictable sabotage in world history.

Not really. The energy reliance and relation already blew up by that time.
Nord Stream was already pretty much all but shut down.

 

[Magic Man]

Italians have contacts with Russians 24 / 7.

My point is that you talk about it as if it's all Russians and all Italians. You don't provide any support for these generalities, just stuff like this, "Italians of have contact with Russians 24/7". This is nothing more than your personal wish for how things are. You'd have to give a lot more support to show that a majority of Italians agree with you, and a majority of Russians think the way you say they do.

One standard applied for Kosovo and one another applied for Donbas?
Double standards.

Only if you view it as simply as you're presenting it. When you provide the actual context I did, it makes perfect sense to approach Donbas the way Ukraine did. The insurrection was Russian-backed.

Like in Kosovo. But a referendum ascertained they wanted to be with Russia.

No, it didn't.

Watch this,

No, thanks. Show actual support for your claims, not videos.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

One standard applied for Kosovo and one another applied for Donbas?

Those are not comparable situations.
You need a history lesson if you think it is.

Like in Kosovo. But a referendum ascertained they wanted to be with Russia.

A "referendum" carried out in occupied territory and organized by the kalashnikov wearing occupying force.
Be serious please.

 

[Estro Felino]

No, thanks. Show actual support for your claims, not videos.

Honestly I have never seen a judge refusing to watch a video (piece of evidence) presented by the claimant.

 

[Magic Man]

Honestly I have never seen a judge refusing to watch a video (piece of evidence) presented by the claimant.

Cool, not sure what that has to do with us here, though. If you want to support your claims, supply evidence, not videos.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't think very many Americans ever even knew nor cared that the Nordstream even existed. It's not the kind of thing that makes top headlines in U.S. news media. But maybe the oil company executives saw it differently. The oil business can be a bit tricky. It seems to lurk behind numerous military engagements, even while those engagements are presented as being caused by many other factors - except for oil.

I wish all the peoples of the world were allies.
But the élites enormously benefit from wars because they crave resources and raw materials.

 

[lukethethird]

It's an all-around difficult situation, since the current boundaries of the Republics were set and established during the Soviet period. They ostensibly all agreed to those boundaries, and then all withdrew somewhat precipitously from the Soviet Union (including the Russian Republic itself). The Soviet Constitution allowed the Republics the option of seceding from the Soviet Union, and all of the Republics (including Russia) chose to withdraw.

So, in a way, much of this problem is rooted in poorly conceived choices they made while they (both Ukraine and Russia) were still the Soviet Union. I'm not going to say which side is right or wrong here, except that this is more of an internal "family dispute," even if the "family" has already broken up. So, it's not really for the West to take sides here, any more than it would be our business to intervene in the Troubles between Britain and Ireland over the centuries. It's not our business; it's strictly between them.

Yes, I agree, it's their business. Personally, I can't concern myself as to where the borderlines end up being drawn.