Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Magic Man]

Putin has never wanted to conquer any European country.

Of course he has. He's trying to do it right now.

 

[Stevicus]

Putin has never wanted to conquer any European country.

Historically, Russia has generally adopted a defensive posture, as they've been invaded and overrun numerous times from all sides. Their terrain is flat, with few natural barriers to slow down an invading army, so their national security perceptions involved creating buffer zones as a defensive measure. Their expansionism was mainly a consequence and result of other countries attempting to conquer them.

I don't think they ever wanted to conquer Europe, but they've always felt threatened by Europe (and by extension, the U.S.).

 

[Magic Man]

Historically, Russia has generally adopted a defensive posture, as they've been invaded and overrun numerous times from all sides. Their terrain is flat, with few natural barriers to slow down an invading army, so their national security perceptions involved creating buffer zones as a defensive measure. Their expansionism was mainly a consequence and result of other countries attempting to conquer them.

I don't think they ever wanted to conquer Europe, but they've always felt threatened by Europe (and by extension, the U.S.).

That's not true. Their expansionism was a result of them wanting to increase their land and power. You don't form an empire for defensive purposes, especially not the third largest in history. The USSR and its incorporation of puppet states was also not defensive. I mean, they had a colony in North America for several decades.

 

[Stevicus]

That's not true. Their expansionism was a result of them wanting to increase their land and power. You don't form an empire for defensive purposes, especially not the third largest in history. The USSR and its incorporation of puppet states was also not defensive. I mean, they had a colony in North America for several decades.

They were creating a buffer zone of territory as a defensive measure. They didn't really form much of an empire until Napoleon tried to conquer them and failed. They gained more land as a result. Also, after WW2, it was the same thing when Hitler tried to conquer them. Forming a defensive buffer zone is perfectly logical and rational from a national security standpoint. I'm not saying that it's morally right, but, in and of itself, it can't be used as evidence of any intrinsic desire to form an empire or take over a world.

 

[Magic Man]

They were creating a buffer zone of territory as a defensive measure. They didn't really form much of an empire until Napoleon tried to conquer them and failed. They gained more land as a result. Also, after WW2, it was the same thing when Hitler tried to conquer them. Forming a defensive buffer zone is perfectly logical and rational from a national security standpoint. I'm not saying that it's morally right, but, in and of itself, it can't be used as evidence of any intrinsic desire to form an empire or take over a world.

Except that's not what they did. Again, you don't form the empire they did as a buffer zone. An empire is not defensive. Look at the Great Northern War, where Russia formed a coalition to attack the Swedish Empire. Even before that Ivan III expanded the Russian state through the usual means of conquest and seizure. And the empire very much formed well before Napoleon's attempted invasion. Officially the empire was founded in 1721, almost 100 years before Nalopleon's invasion.

It was not at all "the same thing" when Hitler tried to invade them. They were already the USSR. No other country tried to take over more land to "form a buffer zone" after WWII. France didn't. Poland didn't.

I mean, they literally formed an empire (And even the USSR could be seen as one), so yeah, I'd say it can without a doubt be used as evidence of an intrinsic desire to form an empire. And Putin very much has shown the desire to increase their land and power. I doubt he intends to try to take over Europe militarily, as that would be folly, but he fights that war with propaganda and through internet misinformation now.

 

[Sargonski]

Yes, we understand your love for strongmen. Probably why you like Trump -- you have that in common.

Who is the one who has love for the brown shirt tactics .. running around trying to project profanity onto others .. prior to taking log out of own eye. Are you not a fan of "Genocide Joe" .. do you not love the new Blue Neocon crew .. and their hatred of civil liberties in favor of a security state and increasing Gov't power.

Ukraine Gov't is acting like a Junta .. Azov neo-Nazi Press gangs roaming the streets forcing any male capable of holding a gun into near certain death over a hopeless case .. similar to the Stalin in Stalingrad .. and just as ill equiped.

TDS -- is an affliction where people want to blame Trump for everything wrong in the world.

 

[lukethethird]

It's not a border dispute. It's Russia trying to take over Ukraine. Even if you just mean the Donbas region, that's only an armed conflict because Russia supported a very marginal group who wanted to break away from Ukraine.

The west is supporting Ukraine against the invading Russians. Sometimes western countries create bogeymen. Sometimes they create their own enemies. In this case, Putin and Russia don't need help in that department. The west didn't create him; he is a bogeyman because he's genuinely a dictator who wants more power and land.

If Russia was to invade and take over Ukraine it would bomb Kiev into oblivion by flying over a thousand bombing missions a day for over a month before sending any of their troops in, just as the US bombed Baghdad before sending their troops in. That is what an invasion of Ukraine would have looked like, that's how it's done. People talk invasion because they don't know any better, they simply don't know what an invasion is.

 

[Magic Man]

If Russia was to invade and take over Ukraine it would bomb Kiev into oblivion by flying over a thousand bombing missions a day for over a month before sending any of their troops in, just as the US bombed Baghdad before sending their troops in. That is what an invasion of Ukraine would have looked like, that's how it's done. People talk invasion because they don't know any better, they simply don't know what an invasion is.

Sure, it's just that easy...

We're watching an attempted invasion of Ukraine right now. This is what it looks like.

"When Vladimir Putin sent up to 200,000 soldiers into Ukraine on 24 February 2022, he wrongly assumed he could sweep into the capital, Kyiv, in a matter of days and depose the government.
After a series of humiliating retreats, his initial invasion plan has clearly failed, but Russia's war is far from over."

Has Putin's war failed and what does Russia want from Ukraine?

A year into Russia's war, he has little to show for it but there is no sign of an end.

www.bbc.com

 

[lukethethird]

Sure, it's just that easy...

We're watching an attempted invasion of Ukraine right now. This is what it looks like.

"When Vladimir Putin sent up to 200,000 soldiers into Ukraine on 24 February 2022, he wrongly assumed he could sweep into the capital, Kyiv, in a matter of days and depose the government.
After a series of humiliating retreats, his initial invasion plan has clearly failed, but Russia's war is far from over."

Has Putin's war failed and what does Russia want from Ukraine?

A year into Russia's war, he has little to show for it but there is no sign of an end.

www.bbc.com

I read that pitiful opinion piece years ago, what does it have to do with reality? Tell me, how does the author know what Putin assumes? How would troops march into any city, let alone Kiev, and depose the government there? How does that work?

 

[Magic Man]

I read that pitiful opinion piece years ago, what does it have to do with reality? Tell me, how does the author know what Putin assumes? How would troops march into any city, let alone Kiev, and depose the government there? How does that work?

It's not an opinion piece. It's not pitiful. What it has to do with reality is that it describes it. Putin invaded Ukraine with the intention of deposing the government and basically taking over (fully or de facto). The troops would march in by invading and conquering, the same way troops have marched into foreign lands and taken over for the millennia of human history.

 

[Stevicus]

Except that's not what they did. Again, you don't form the empire they did as a buffer zone. An empire is not defensive. Look at the Great Northern War, where Russia formed a coalition to attack the Swedish Empire. Even before that Ivan III expanded the Russian state through the usual means of conquest and seizure. And the empire very much formed well before Napoleon's attempted invasion. Officially the empire was founded in 1721, almost 100 years before Nalopleon's invasion.

The point is, there was a lot of aggression and invading going on already, and Russia was merely responding to the world as it was. Russia had been invaded numerous times and, because of the terrain and the strategic vulnerability they were in, the only defensive measure they could possibly take was by expanding and building up a larger buffer zone. This fits in with their general war strategy of giving up land in order to gain strategic position and require the enemy to have longer supply lines, etc.

Whether or not they were officially considered an "empire" or just "a country" is beside the point. It wasn't really until after the Napoleonic Wars that they were considered a great power which other powers felt the need to reckon with. Britain, for example, felt threatened by Russia's enmity with the Ottoman Empire over Constantinople, which is why they intervened on Turkey's side in the Crimean War.

It was not at all "the same thing" when Hitler tried to invade them. They were already the USSR. No other country tried to take over more land to "form a buffer zone" after WWII. France didn't. Poland didn't.

That's because they couldn't, although France did take Alsace-Lorraine back from the Germans. Poland was slightly different, as Russia took part of their lands in the east, while giving them German lands along Poland's western frontier (including a portion of East Prussia). Considering the devastation Russia faced during the war, taking the lion's share of casualties in the defeat of Hitler and the situation they were facing leading up to the war, it's perfectly understandable for them to establish a buffer zone. Considering what they had just gone through and the treachery of the German invaders (and their Eastern European allies), one can hardly blame them for wanting to take measures to protect their homeland.

I mean, they literally formed an empire (And even the USSR could be seen as one), so yeah, I'd say it can without a doubt be used as evidence of an intrinsic desire to form an empire. And Putin very much has shown the desire to increase their land and power. I doubt he intends to try to take over Europe militarily, as that would be folly, but he fights that war with propaganda and through internet misinformation now.

So, if a country uses military force against another country, you consider that evidence of an intrinsic desire to form an empire? I would say that's insufficient evidence. There's no evidence of any such desire, and moreover, there's no real motive for doing so. As Putin's Russia is often compared to Hitler's Germany, the key difference is that, unlike Russia, Germany had no resources to feed their growing industrial needs - something that they were desperate for. Germany's motive was that their national survival depended upon building and expanding a global empire. Russia has generally faced the opposite problem, as they have plenty of raw resources, but their technology and industrial capabilities were lagging.

Germany and Japan needed more territory in WW2, but Russia never really did. All they ever needed to do was keep what they already had. Russia has no need to expand for empire or resources. However, the close proximity of Ukraine could be seen as a threat to Russia if they get too friendly with the West.

It's really the U.S. which has been empire-building, not only by expanding NATO, but throughout much of the world, from Panama to Somalia to Southeast Asia and beyond. The U.S. empire is everywhere.

 

[Revoltingest]

The point is, there was a lot of aggression and invading going on already, and Russia was merely responding to the world as it was.

Ever the defender of Russia & USSR.

 

[Stevicus]

Ever the defender of Russia & USSR.

What is that to you?

 

[Revoltingest]

What is that to you?

An observation of loyalty to the cause.

 

[Stevicus]

An observation of loyalty to the cause.

More like loyalty to historical truth.

 

[Revoltingest]

More like loyalty to historical truth.

Another with "THE TRUTH".

 

[Stevicus]

Another with "THE TRUTH".

Do you have any kind of point to make, or are you just trying to needle me?

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you have any kind of point to make, or are you just trying to needle me?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

They were creating a buffer zone of territory as a defensive measure.

This is a very weird way of defining "invading countries and annexing territories".

Any reasonable human being would call that imperialism.

Incidentally, Hitler didn't desire world conquest either. He just wanted to create a central European "buffer zone" to protect his "volk". Perfectly analogous.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's really the U.S. which has been empire-building, not only by expanding NATO, but throughout much of the world, from Panama to Somalia to Southeast Asia and beyond. The U.S. empire is everywhere.

Don't you mean "the U.S/NATO buffer zone"?