Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Stevicus]

We're actually talking about your assertion that Russia's expansion has always been defensive in nature and an effort to establish a "buffer zone". The U.S. and its potential empire are irrelevant to that claim.

Their primary motivation has been defensive, yes, but if you want to look at each and every event and find situations where they were the aggressor, you can certainly find them. I wasn't denying any historical facts about what they've done, but just addressing the underlying perception which motivates such a posture.

You admit here that it's wrong to invade other countries and try to take them over. Before you said you offered no moral judgement on Russia invading and taking over other countries. So, at least we've resolved that.

Well, it's good that we've resolved something, but I don't really see it in the same way. When it comes to moral questions, it's kind of like the "lesser of two evils," where one might still need to take a morally wrong choice if all the other choices lead to a worse outcome. This can get even more dicey because we don't know and can't predict all the possible outcomes.

Russia has not expanded for defensive reasons. They haven't sought to create a "buffer zone". They have expanded the same way every other country/land/nation/state/etc. has ever expanded, through conquest meant to increase their power and land.

Russia has plenty of land already. They are the largest country in the world by area. They don't need any more land.

 

[Revoltingest]

The cause =
to conquer Russia and to seize all its resources... raw materials worth...
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Yeah....like all the raw materials USA got by
invading, occupying, & taking from Iraq &
Afghanistan.
Oh....wait....USA spent trillions for nothing
but death & destruction. Massive loss of
money for USA.
There is less than nothing to be gained by
attacking Russia.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yeah....like all the raw materials USA got by
invading, occupying, & taking from Iraq &
Afghanistan.
Oh....wait....USA spent trillions for nothing
but death & destruction.

The Wikileaks emails to Hillary show otherwise, especially in Libya.

There is less than nothing to be gained by
attacking Russia.

Very well.
Then I would kindly say to the Congress: stop funding Zelenskyy.
He has become one of the richest men in Europe since you have been aiding him
Zelenskyy owns villa worth 4 million dollars

 

[lukethethird]

Their primary motivation has been defensive, yes, but if you want to look at each and every event and find situations where they were the aggressor, you can certainly find them. I wasn't denying any historical facts about what they've done, but just addressing the underlying perception which motivates such a posture.



Well, it's good that we've resolved something, but I don't really see it in the same way. When it comes to moral questions, it's kind of like the "lesser of two evils," where one might still need to take a morally wrong choice if all the other choices lead to a worse outcome. This can get even more dicey because we don't know and can't predict all the possible outcomes.



Russia has plenty of land already. They are the largest country in the world by area. They don't need any more land.

You're one of the few making any sense here. I think you are up against claims that boil down to moral superiority, the old "good vs evil" mentality and we all "know" that we are on the side of good and Russia is the evil empire that has to come down. We see how our governments demonize leaders and people of other nations, the propaganda machine is effective judging by the moral outrage that consumes a good portion of the population.

 

[Magic Man]

Their primary motivation has been defensive, yes

No, it has not. This is the thing I've explained multiple times. Their primary motivation has been to increase their land and power. That's why you create an empire.

Russia has plenty of land already. They are the largest country in the world by area. They don't need any more land.

Correct. Which is why this isn't defensive.

 

[Revoltingest]

The Wikileaks emails to Hillary show otherwise, especially in Libya.

Odd it is that you don't post links
to supporting evidence for the claim.

Very well.
Then I would kindly say to the Congress: stop funding Zelenskyy.

He's doing a wonderful job of seeing
that Russian soldiers die.

He has become one of the richest men in Europe since you have been aiding him
Zelenskyy owns villa worth 4 million dollars

A $4,000,000 villa.
That's merely an upper middle class family
home in good neighborhoods here.
The homes of socialist leaders are much
bigger.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

The Wikileaks emails to Hillary show otherwise, especially in Libya.

Very well.
Then I would kindly say to the Congress: stop funding Zelenskyy.
He has become one of the richest men in Europe since you have been aiding him
Zelenskyy owns villa worth 4 million dollars

Oi Vey!
You’ve got to stop using The National Inquirer, or Fox News as your information go to sites.

Fact Check: Does Zelensky live in $5.5M mansion with infinity pool?

 

[Magic Man]

You're one of the few making any sense here. I think you are up against claims that boil down to moral superiority, the old "good vs evil" mentality and we all "know" that we are on the side of good and Russia is the evil empire that has to come down. We see how our governments demonize leaders and people of other nations, the propaganda machine is effective judging by the moral outrage that consumes a good portion of the population.

Except that's not the discussion at all. The claim he's making is that Russia's expansion has always been defensive and about a "buffer zone" because they've been invaded. It has nothing to do with "good vs. evil" or the U.S. The simple fact is that Russia does not expand to create a "buffer zone", and it does not expand for defensive purposes. It expands like everyone else to increase its power. Whether the U.S. does bad things is irrelevant to that.

 

[lukethethird]

Except that's not the discussion at all. The claim he's making is that Russia's expansion has always been defensive and about a "buffer zone" because they've been invaded. It has nothing to do with "good vs. evil" or the U.S. The simple fact is that Russia does not expand to create a "buffer zone", and it does not expand for defensive purposes. It expands like everyone else to increase its power. Whether the U.S. does bad things is irrelevant to that.

Of course, we know Russia is evil to the core and that you support this moral crusade that Nato is on. We get it.

 

[Magic Man]

Of course, we know Russia is evil to the core and that you support this moral crusade that Nato is on. We get it.

In other words, you're not interested in actually reading a post before replying. (Hint: Nothing I said could be construed as "Russia is evil" or anything about a "moral crusade NATO is on".)

The fact remains Russia's expansion has never been defensive or about a buffer zone. If you want to keep arguing against strawmen and making stuff up, please do it elsewhere.

 

[Estro Felino]

Odd it is that you don't post links
to supporting evidence for the claim.

He's doing a wonderful job of seeing
that Russian soldiers die.

A $4,000,000 villa.
That's merely an upper middle class family
home in good neighborhoods here.
The homes of socialist leaders are much
bigger.

All right.
Some news: Ukraine will join the EU, it will be modernized...and all warmongers will be forbidden from entering the country.
Its constitution will repudiate war.
And Zelensky will probably move to some beautiful Caribbean island.
Do you now them? They are paradise... Heaven...
(tax havens).

 

[Estro Felino]

Of course, we know Russia is evil to the core and that you support this moral crusade that Nato is on. We get it.

The sad thing is that people believe this crusade is to save Ukraine.
No ...they couldn't care less about Ukrainians.
They just want to conquer Russia, to seize all its resources.

 

[Revoltingest]

All right.
Some news: Ukraine will join the EU, it will be modernized...and all warmongers will be forbidden from entering the country.
Its constitution will repudiate war.
And Zelensky will probably move to some beautiful Caribbean island.
Do you now them? They are paradise... Heaven...
(tax havens).

Still no support for the claim.

 

[lukethethird]

In other words, you're not interested in actually reading a post before replying. (Hint: Nothing I said could be construed as "Russia is evil" or anything about a "moral crusade NATO is on".)

The fact remains Russia's expansion has never been defensive or about a buffer zone. If you want to keep arguing against strawmen and making stuff up, please do it elsewhere.

So then what you are saying is that Russia is no different than any other country. I would agree with that because Russia does what countries do, and like any country they react to what other countries do, and there is no reason to get morally smug over what they do vs what any other country does.

 

[Godobeyer]

Agreed!​

This How Ukraine army deal with their own soldier whom wounded and surrender to Russia​

​

 

[Stevicus]

No, it has not. This is the thing I've explained multiple times. Their primary motivation has been to increase their land and power. That's why you create an empire.

You've said it multiple times, but you haven't really offered any evidentiary support.

Correct. Which is why this isn't defensive.

It's not to increase their land and power, since they already have enough land.

 

[Stevicus]

In other words, you're not interested in actually reading a post before replying. (Hint: Nothing I said could be construed as "Russia is evil" or anything about a "moral crusade NATO is on".)

The fact remains Russia's expansion has never been defensive or about a buffer zone. If you want to keep arguing against strawmen and making stuff up, please do it elsewhere.

Saying that Russia is imperialist and declaring that they're morally wrong does carry that kind of connotation. I don't think you've pointed out any actual facts that I've stated which were wrong. However, you seem to be questioning my conclusions regarding those facts.

 

[Stevicus]

You're one of the few making any sense here. I think you are up against claims that boil down to moral superiority, the old "good vs evil" mentality and we all "know" that we are on the side of good and Russia is the evil empire that has to come down. We see how our governments demonize leaders and people of other nations, the propaganda machine is effective judging by the moral outrage that consumes a good portion of the population.

It's not too surprising, as I still remember the kind of rhetorical arguments which were used during the Cold War. Today's rhetoric is almost a carbon copy of that. Ukraine has become today's South Vietnam.

 

[lukethethird]

You've said it multiple times, but you haven't really offered any evidentiary support.



It's not to increase their land and power, since they already have enough land.

Maybe he calls himself Magic Man because he knows what motivates the powers that be in Russia, he knows their thoughts. Obviously, at least to Magic Man, Putin woke up one morning and decided to send the troops into Ukraine because of an inherent need to expand Russia for the sake of expanding Russia.

 

[lukethethird]

It's not too surprising, as I still remember the kind of rhetorical arguments which were used during the Cold War. Today's rhetoric is almost a carbon copy of that. Ukraine has become today's South Vietnam.

I too remember the rhetoric from the Cold War, this is a continuation of that rhetoric. As soon as Biden became president the rhetoric ramped up considerably and soon enough he got his, ahem "unprovoked" proxy war.