Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Shadow Wolf]

Really? Maybe in your country there's such a narrative.
In other countries they say that Russians are all wicked and they elected another wicked man, Putin, who is like them.

So they believe they were free and fair democratic elections.

Not what I've been reading, with countries lined up to condemn Putin's facade of an election.

 

[Altfish]

The presidential elections were scheduled for March 31st, but they will not be held.
And please, spare me the martial law thing: a wartime can even last twenty years. That would make twenty years of martial law.
And by the way, martial law is itself, dictatorship, because there is no democratic vote.

Look at Russia. They are at war, but they still held elections.

How would you hold a safe election in a country that is being bombed on a daily basis?
Unless an election can be held under no duress and all the women and children that have been evacuated abroad can vote, it is not democratic.
The war could last 200-years, that's 200-years of Martial Law. What is the point you are trying to make?

Russia is not being bombed. They are not proper elections anyway.
You talk of democracy in Ukraine, what do they have in Russia?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What really baffles me is the argument that it should be a perfectly reasonable expectation to have free and fair elections even in a country that is currently being invaded, and a significant number of whose population are currently refugees abroad.

I mean, if we uncritically accept this logic, doesn't it actually cast RUSSIA in an even worse light? I mean, if it's reasonable to expect Ukraine to carry out free and fair elections despite being a victim of an invasion, then what exactly is Russia's excuse for it's obvious sham elections?

 

[ajay0]

Zhelensky knows that he will be out if the elections were held. His poor judgement lead to Ukraine being unnecessarily sucked into geopolitical conflicts leading to heavy civilian casualties, infrastructural losses , economic hardship, and Ukrainians fleeing as refugees to other countries.

A good and prudent leadership would have ensured that Ukraine would have stayed neutral and steered away from the storms.

The several corruption scandals with respect to the large amounts of foreign aid money has also heavily stained his administration. If they are out of office, the opportunity for squandering more money to their bank accounts is lost as well.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Zhelensky knows that he will be out if the elections were held. His poor judgement lead to Ukraine being unnecessarily sucked into geopolitical conflicts leading to heavy civilian casualties, infrastructural losses , economic hardship, and Ukrainians fleeing as refugees to other countries.

Weird how RUSSIA INVADING THEM isn't mentioned here.

Seems like a weird omission.

A good and prudent leadership would have ensured that Ukraine would have stayed neutral and steered away from the storms.

Literally, "a good leader would have somehow PREVENTED Russia invading them. Not sure how. Maybe by capitulating to them, and not fulfilling the promises they made on which they were democratically elected by establishing closer ties to Europe and NATO, because the Ukrainian population fears an inevitable Russian invasions FOR OBVIOUS REASONS."

Stop spreading Kremlin propaganda. You're not even good at it.

 

[ajay0]

Weird how RUSSIA INVADING THEM isn't mentioned here.

Seems like a weird omission.

If one does not have enough military strength as deterrence to deflect an invasion, one should choose other prudent options. Zhelensky had all the time to brainstorm all options.

Nothing wrong with being neutral if it saves even a single life. This is not courage but prudence.

Literally, "a good leader would have somehow PREVENTED Russia invading them. Not sure how. Maybe by capitulating to them, and not fulfilling the promises they made on which they were democratically elected by establishing closer ties to Europe and NATO, because the Ukrainian population fears an inevitable Russian invasions FOR OBVIOUS REASONS."

I would respect Zhelensky as a leader if he had somehow deflected the invasion, or at least ensured no corruption with respect to the large aid money received. Z has failed on both counts.

Its like the foolish captain of a ship who navigated his way to the eye of the hurricane ignoring all other courses, and is now pleading help from other ships.

Stop spreading Kremlin propaganda. You're not even good at it.

Are the various corruption scandals 'kremlin propaganda' ! They are reported by western newspapers themselves. You should accuse them of Kremlin propaganda, not me. Lol...

Ukraine says it has uncovered major arms corruption

Ukraine's security service accuses senior officials of trying to steal about $40m in an order for mortar shells.

www.bbc.com

Ukraine says corrupt officials stole $40 million of weapons money

Authorities say five people have been charged, with one person detained while trying to cross the border. If found guilty, they face up to 12 years in prison.

www.euronews.com

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/graft-accusations-dog-top-zelenskiy-aides-2023-09-19/

 

[Nakosis]

The presidential elections were scheduled for March 31st, but they will not be held.
And please, spare me the martial law thing: a wartime can even last twenty years. That would make twenty years of martial law.
And by the way, martial law is itself, dictatorship, because there is no democratic vote.

Look at Russia. They are at war, but they still held elections.

Can't risk the opposition figuring out a way to end the war.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If one does not have enough military strength as deterrence to deflect an invasion, one should choose other prudent options.

You mean, like considering joining a strategic defensive alliance with other, more powerful nations? OH WAIT.

Your argument here is literally imperialist apologia. If a country is too weak to defend itself against an imperialist aggressor, that doesn't mean its only recourse should be to cut deals with their aggressor. Especially when their aggressor is known for breaking those deals, over and over again, and the current democratic government was elected on a platform of distancing itself from said aggressor for obvious reasons.

Nothing wrong with being neutral if it saves even a single life.

What a convenient excuse for imperialism. "Gee, sure is a nice country you have here," says Russia "Sure would be a shame if something were to happen to it."

Don't capitulate to tyrants. Ukraine had every right to self-determination, and has every reason to want to distance itself from Russia. It did this in full agreement with international law, and did not antagonise Russia in the least. If Russia were not currently run by a warmongering tyrant, perhaps your argument would hold water. Perhaps if Russia would stop invading and annexing its neighbours, its neighbours would be more inclined to closer geopolitical relationships with them.

As it is, your argument is no better than the domestic abuse apologist, who blames the wife for her black eye because she dared to consider calling the police on her abusive husband.

I would respect Zhelensky as a leader if he had somehow deflected the invasion, or at least ensured no corruption with respect to the large aid money received. Z has failed on both counts.

Literally "Russia invaded, and that's somehow Zelenskiy's fault". You don't even see Russia as a factor. You put all responsibility for the invasion on Ukraine and fail to see how doing so pretends Russia is some neutral entity; a force of nature, like a tornado or earthquake that everyone just has to prepare for and do their best to survive. It's not. It's a nation run by people who MADE THE DECISION TO INVADE and COULD HAVE JUST NOT MADE THAT DECISION.

Its like the foolish captain of a ship who navigated his way to the eye of the hurricane ignoring all other courses, and is now pleading help from other ships.

Wow. I used the above metaphor as a comparison, and here you are LITERALLY EXPOSING YOUR OWN LOGIC. You genuinely do view Russia as without any actual agency, and its decisions as just a natural consequence of forces beyond human control, rather than as a sovereign territory capable of making decisions, and for whom consequences exist for their actions.

Literally, democracy, government, diplomacy; these things all exist in triplicate to you for every nation EXCEPT RUSSIA. Russia is, apparently, completely beyond and above these considerations, and any path it takes is a consequence not of its own political class and any existing/non-existing diplomacy that took place, but of some ineffable, uncontrollable natural force that every other nation in the world just has to "navigate around" in order to not be destroyed. And if they are destroyed, "Whelp! You shoulda tried Diplomacy, friend!". And if they DO try diplomacy and get destroyed anyway, "Whelp, you should Diplomacied harder, friend!". With no acknowledgement whatsoever of what diplomacy Russia engaged in. Of any actions ITS government decided. Of exactly what the consequences of ITS behaviour is.

You're a parody of your own position.

Are the various corruption scandals 'kremlin propaganda' ! They are reported by western newspapers themselves. You should accuse them of Kremlin propaganda, not me. Lol...

Ukraine says it has uncovered major arms corruption

Ukraine's security service accuses senior officials of trying to steal about $40m in an order for mortar shells.

www.bbc.com

Ukraine says corrupt officials stole $40 million of weapons money

Authorities say five people have been charged, with one person detained while trying to cross the border. If found guilty, they face up to 12 years in prison.

www.euronews.com

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/graft-accusations-dog-top-zelenskiy-aides-2023-09-19/

Wow! I never knew corruption exists in the arms industry!

What incredible news! I will contact the Hague immediately.

How is this a bigger deal to you than, say, the numerous war crimes committed by Russia? And, y'now, the illegal invasion carried out by Russia? Do you believe that there existing SOME corruption in the Ukrainian government somehow... JUSTIFIES them being invaded, and their citizens being subjected to war crimes?

Just, y'know, a reasonable question for you, since you literally omit the existence of the invasion from literally every argument you make.

 

[Tomef]

The presidential elections were scheduled for March 31st, but they will not be held.
And please, spare me the martial law thing: a wartime can even last twenty years. That would make twenty years of martial law.
And by the way, martial law is itself, dictatorship, because there is no democratic vote.

Look at Russia. They are at war, but they still held elections.

If you can find a country that held elections while being invaded, you’ll have a valid comparison.

Beyond that, you could do with a little nuance if you want to make a worthwhile argument.

The Kremlin staged elections, to say they held elections would make it seem they were legitimate, as in free and open, which is far from being the case.

 

[Estro Felino]

Can't risk the opposition figuring out a way to end the war.

Indeed.
If his majesty Zely Volod believes that Ukrainians love him, he should grant democratic elections.
Maybe he knows that only the 0.5% will vote for him?

 

[Estro Felino]

If you can find a country that held elections while being invaded, you’ll have a valid comparison.

A war cannot last forever.
Even we were invaded and lost territories.
Maybe it's time for Zelenskyy to accept that and move on.
Tell me: can a war last even twenty years? If not, tell me the temporal limit.

 

[Nakosis]

Indeed.
If his majesty Zely Volod believes that Ukrainians love him, he should grant democratic elections.
Maybe he knows that only the 0.5% will vote for him?

I don't particularly like Putin or Russia and I think Putin is an dick for invading Ukraine but I like war even less. Most people in Russia live decent lives. So what is really the downside if Russia takes over? Certainly a lot less destruction and death.

I know why the governments fight over Ukraine, but I suspect the lives of the people of Ukraine wouldn't change much regardless of which ******** um, I mean government is in charge.

 

[LuisDantas]

...which is what Ukraine should do. Make peace with the Russians.

Considering what the Americans did in Japan...
yes, we consider ourselves the smart ones.

You don't have nearly as much love for logical coherence as you have for people who like to present a façade of power.

 

[Altfish]

A war cannot last forever.
Even we were invaded and lost territories.
Maybe it's time for Zelenskyy to accept that and move on.

Tell me: can a war last even twenty years? If not, tell me the temporal limit.

You have ignored my previous post, so I will ask again..
Please explain how Ukraine can hold a free democratic election when the cities are under siege and a high proportion of the female electorate is evacuated abroad.

 

[Estro Felino]

I don't particularly like Putin or Russia and I think Putin is an dick for invading Ukraine but I like war even less. Most people in Russia live decent lives. So what is really the downside if Russia takes over? Certainly a lot less destruction and death.

I know why the governments fight over Ukraine, but I suspect the lives of the people of Ukraine wouldn't change much regardless of which ******** um, I mean government is in charge.

Ukraine has lost the war.
I know there are so many people in denial, and who think that Ukrainians are cannon fodder to be sacrificed for the sake of the war on the tsar....but someday they will all get sick and tired, they will go wild and overthrow this tyranny by force.
I know it will happen because that's exactly what happened in my country.

 

[Estro Felino]

You have ignored my previous post, so I will ask again..
Please explain how Ukraine can hold a free democratic election when the cities are under siege and a high proportion of the female electorate is evacuated abroad.

Maybe you should understand that only the four regions of Donbas are the areas where the war is fought.

And those four regions already voted for staying in the Russian Federation.
In the remaining 90% of Ukraine there's no war. So they can vote, there.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Maybe you should understand that only the four regions of Donbas are the areas where the war is fought.

And those four regions already voted for staying in the Russian Federation.
In the remaining 90% of Ukraine there's no war. So they can vote, there.

No war? But a lot of damage!

 

[Altfish]

Maybe you should understand that only the four regions of Donbas are the areas where the war is fought.

And those four regions already voted for staying in the Russian Federation.
In the remaining 90% of Ukraine there's no war. So they can vote, there.

So the 10% (I suspect more by population rather than land area) and all the women abroad don't get a vote?

 

[Tomef]

A war cannot last forever.
Even we were invaded and lost territories.
Maybe it's time for Zelenskyy to accept that and move on.

Tell me: can a war last even twenty years? If not, tell me the temporal limit.

What’s the point of the question? The war will continue until it’s untenable for one side or the other to continue. That could mean Russia presses its current advantage and drives Kyiv to some sort of compromise, the likely outcome of which is a prolonged guerrilla war with an uncertain outcome. The enmity between pro and anti Russian Ukrainians, which was negligible before the Kremlin began fomenting it prior to the first invasion in 2014, is now a permanent feature, guaranteeing years of conflict. If the US and allies continue to provide munitions and weaponry, then the Ukrainian forces could inflict much higher losses and potentially gain some ground, which might eventually push Putin into a compromise. A total victory for Putin would make an invasion of Moldova more likely, which would further extend the war. So, there are many possibilities. Trying to reduce it down to a handful of basic questions and trite assertions is an utter waste of time.

 

[Tomef]

Maybe you should understand that only the four regions of Donbas are the areas where the war is fought.

And those four regions already voted for staying in the Russian Federation.
In the remaining 90% of Ukraine there's no war. So they can vote, there.

Voted under duress.