Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Magic Man]

However, if the West's goal is to demonize, punish, and humiliate Russia, then they might end up with a hornets' nest on their hands.

Let's recap:

Russia invades Ukraine. No actual reason, just because they want to take over or at least depose the government there.

The West: Let's aid Ukraine against the invaders to help them not get taken over.

You: Why is the West demonizing, punishing and humiliating Russia? They'll be responsible for the hornet's nest on their hands.

OR, hear me out here. Maybe, just maybe, Russia stops invading other countries? Maybe they stop spreading propaganda and messing with other countries' elections? Maybe Putin stops murdering his political rivals? And you wonder why I point out that you're promoting Russian propaganda. This is the same logic as when an abuser beats up their partner and says "look what you made me do". (Note: obviously you're not an abuser or on that level, which is why I said it's the same logic, not the same thing.)

 

[lukethethird]

That sounds like ceding to Russia
the territory already taken.

You show great sympathy for Russians.
Consider that the west wants to defend
Ukraine (& other potential victims)
against the invader.

Sympathy for Russia? Really? I see people of Ukraine defending and losing their lives but I don't see "the west" flocking to Ukraine to defend against Russia. I see war profiteers making billions off of arms sales for the cause and war lusting advocates cheering them on but that's about it.

 

[lukethethird]

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said. You said when you call for peace, you're labeled a villain. I pointed out that it depends on how you want peace. If you want Russia to stop trying to invade other countries, which would create peace, then great. That's what most of us want. If you mean something else, you'd have to explain.

​

​

Peace talks, they have been tried in the past:​

​

Erdogan and Putin allege Boris Johnson derailed Russia-Ukraine peace talks in 2022​

MSN



.

 

[Stevicus]

That sounds like ceding to Russia
the territory already taken.

Well, the military reality is, they've already taken it. So, unless someone can muster up the military might required to extricate them from there, what do you propose be done?

The territory doesn't have to be officially "ceded" to Russia.

You show great sympathy for Russians.
Consider that the west wants to defend
Ukraine (& other potential victims)
against the invader.

What you mischaracterize as "sympathy" is merely an understanding of the country which the U.S. government and other Western governments are dealing with at this point.

My true sympathies are with America. Our side is neither Russian nor Ukrainian, and in the end, the well-being of America is more important to me than either Russia or Ukraine.

My only point has been that, I don't consider the Russians to be devils with horns. I think that if we had approached them the right way, used some diplomacy and tact - we probably could have avoided this whole thing entirely. But I'm talking 20-30 years ago.

Now, it may be too late. We may be past the point of no return. I don't think it would mean WW3 - not yet, anyway. But more Cold War shenanigans, underground wars, proxy wars, cyber wars. I don't sympathize with them, but I think they could turn out to be a greater nemesis on various fronts that we may not be able to easily handle, given our current political dilemmas and other difficult circumstances.

 

[Stevicus]

Let's recap:

Russia invades Ukraine. No actual reason, just because they want to take over or at least depose the government there.

The West: Let's aid Ukraine against the invaders to help them not get taken over.

You: Why is the West demonizing, punishing and humiliating Russia? They'll be responsible for the hornet's nest on their hands.

OR, hear me out here. Maybe, just maybe, Russia stops invading other countries? Maybe they stop spreading propaganda and messing with other countries' elections? Maybe Putin stops murdering his political rivals? And you wonder why I point out that you're promoting Russian propaganda. This is the same logic as when an abuser beats up their partner and says "look what you made me do". (Note: obviously you're not an abuser or on that level, which is why I said it's the same logic, not the same thing.)

Look, I just don't see anything of substance here that I can address. I think the best thing to do is simply agree to disagree.

 

[Stevicus]

Sympathy for Russia? Really? I see people of Ukraine defending and losing their lives but I don't see "the west" flocking to Ukraine to defend against Russia. I see war profiteers making billions off of arms sales for the cause and war lusting advocates cheering them on but that's about it.

Yes, it's also interesting that those who deliver shrill cries for war and scream that Ukraine should stand and defend itself to the last man are all sitting comfortably in the West, far away from the fighting.

 

[lukethethird]

Yes, it's also interesting that those who deliver shrill cries for war and scream that Ukraine should stand and defend itself to the last man are all sitting comfortably in the West, far away from the fighting.

Exactly, armchair war lusting support, gottaluvit.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sympathy for Russia? Really? I see people of Ukraine defending and losing their lives but I don't see "the west" flocking to Ukraine to defend against Russia.

The west is assisting with materiel.
To send troops has been judged
as provocative, risking WW3.

I see war profiteers making billions off of arms sales for the cause and war lusting advocates cheering them on but that's about it.

You believe that the ;manufacturers of
materiel are behind defending Ukraine?

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, it's also interesting that those who deliver shrill cries for war and scream that Ukraine should stand and defend itself to the last man are all sitting comfortably in the West, far away from the fighting.

As "shrill" as your "cries" for appeasement
to let Russia have what it wants, while sitting
in complete safety behind a computer screen.

See what I did there?
Same ad hominem tactic you used.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, the military reality is, they've already taken it.

Not clear they can hold it.
But the price paid would serve
as a deterrent to taking more.

So, unless someone can muster up the military might required to extricate them from there, what do you propose be done?

Continue aiding Ukraine.

The territory doesn't have to be officially "ceded" to Russia.

Why use the qualifier "officially"?

What you mischaracterize as "sympathy" is merely an understanding of the country which the U.S. government and other Western governments are dealing with at this point.

Sympathy it appears.

My true sympathies are with America. Our side is neither Russian nor Ukrainian, and in the end, the well-being of America is more important to me than either Russia or Ukraine.

Then you ought to consider the potential
benefit to USA by messaging Putin that
conquest is very very expensive.
Same message to China re Taiwan.

My only point has been that, I don't consider the Russians to be devils with horns. I think that if we had approached them the right way, used some diplomacy and tact - we probably could have avoided this whole thing entirely. But I'm talking 20-30 years ago.

Devils without horns then?

Now, it may be too late. We may be past the point of no return. I don't think it would mean WW3 - not yet, anyway. But more Cold War shenanigans, underground wars, proxy wars, cyber wars. I don't sympathize with them, but I think they could turn out to be a greater nemesis on various fronts that we may not be able to easily handle, given our current political dilemmas and other difficult circumstances.

OK.

 

[Stevicus]

As "shrill" as your "cries" for appeasement
to let Russia have what it wants, while sitting
in complete safety behind a computer screen.

See what I did there?
Same ad hominem tactic you used.

A key difference is that I'm calling for peace - an end to the killing. My proposal saves lives, while your proposal continues the slaughter. It's true that I live in peace as I type this from behind a computer, and I wish peace for those who are currently living under the horrors of war.

 

[Revoltingest]

A key difference is that I'm calling for peace - an end to the killing.

I know.
But such peace has risks for
future Russian conquest.

 

[Stevicus]

Not clear they can hold it.
But the price paid would serve
as a deterrent to taking more.

It depends on who is paying the price and how much it costs. I suppose if NATO were to send troops to Ukraine, they could push the Russians out, but that would mean an escalation. It doesn't appear likely that Ukraine can push the Russians out all by themselves, and therein lies the dilemma.

Continue aiding Ukraine.

We can continue sending supplies and equipment, but we can't send them troops. Not unless we want an escalation.

Why use the qualifier "officially"?

"Ceded" carries an official tone to it, as if agreed to by treaty, but that wasn't the scenario I was thinking about.

Sympathy it appears.

My sympathies are with my own country.

Then you ought to consider the potential
benefit to USA by messaging Putin that
conquest is very very expensive.
Same message to China re Taiwan.

It's expensive for us, too. This is also a drain on the U.S. Let's not forget that.

What I consider is that we don't live in the same world we once did. I don't believe America's role as global policeman is relevant or suited for us anymore. I think we can view other nations and their governments as adult, rational human beings who might just be trying to pursue their own national interests, just as we have done or might have done if we were in the same situation as they were. They may still be rivals who have to be watched, but that doesn't mean we can't find a way to coexist with them peacefully.

Even if we still wanted to maintain a global policy of interventionism, I don't think we'd be able to sustain it for the long haul. We're also not the same country we used to be.

Devils without horns then?

OK.

 

[Nakosis]

Yes, it's also interesting that those who deliver shrill cries for war and scream that Ukraine should stand and defend itself to the last man are all sitting comfortably in the West, far away from the fighting.

Well, at least the dead no longer have to care about freedom.

 

[Revoltingest]

It depends on who is paying the price and how much it costs.

I thought we were discussing Russia,
whose price paid is all over the news.

 

[Stevicus]

I thought we were discussing Russia,
whose price paid is all over the news.

Yes, but others are paying the price as well.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, but others are paying the price as well.

You're ignoring my post by
making it about something else,
not Russia's cost inhibiting its
predation.
More Russian sympathy.

 

[QuestioningMind]

A key difference is that I'm calling for peace - an end to the killing. My proposal saves lives, while your proposal continues the slaughter. It's true that I live in peace as I type this from behind a computer, and I wish peace for those who are currently living under the horrors of war.

You may be advocating for the end of the killing, but not for peace. Russia effectively has Ukraine down on the ground with it's knee on Ukraine's neck, and your saying "If Ukraine would just stop struggling and accept its fate, no one else needs to get killed."

 

[Magic Man]

​

​

Peace talks, they have been tried in the past:​

​

Erdogan and Putin allege Boris Johnson derailed Russia-Ukraine peace talks in 2022​

MSN



.

1) But what was the reason for the peace talks to begin with? Russia is a country. Ukraine is a country. They should be at peace anyway. They only needed peace talks in the first place because of Russian aggression.

2) Boris Johnson might not be all that trustworthy, but Erdogan and Putin are even less so. I'm not going to take their word on anything, especially when it was given in an interview with Tucker Carlson.

3) Peace means Russia ending their attempted invasion and not trying to take over land that's not theirs. Regardless of what happened years ago (even though that was still Russian aggression).

 

[Magic Man]

Look, I just don't see anything of substance here that I can address. I think the best thing to do is simply agree to disagree.

I'm sure you do think that's the best thing to do, because you think this is about opinions, and your claims are not supported by anything.

Whether or not you personally see something of substance is irrelevant. The substance is there. You can choose to refuse to see it, but that doesn't make it go away. Your claims about Russia are simply false.