Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[QuestioningMind]

Yes, the U.S. and other Western governments have been doing exactly that. It hasn't produced the desired result, so perhaps another tack might be considered.

And your solution is for Ukraine to just get used to the idea that Russia is going to keep its knee on Ukraine's neck from now on? Doesn't sound like you really care about peace for Ukraine... you just don't want Russia to have to pay any further costs for their aggressions.

 

[lukethethird]

Yes, that's a good way to sum it up. Your accusations are definitely long on opinion, short on facts and short of any knowledge of recent or any history. I'd think when one got accused of defending things so many times, one might stop and consider why that was happening.

I'm accused because I am opposed to war and the propaganda that justifies it, and I am opposed to war because I am not a psychopath.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Your way of expressing this would indicate a palpable degree of intolerance of other people's viewpoints. Just because I have a different perception

Oh god, I am done with you.

If you don't understand the difference between "having a different point of view" and "deliberately misrepresenting history", we have no common ground on which to build.

Keep your lectures.

 

[Stevicus]

Oh god, I am done with you.

If you don't understand the difference between "having a different point of view" and "deliberately misrepresenting history", we have no common ground on which to build.

Keep your lectures.

Until next time...

 

[Stevicus]

And your solution is for Ukraine to just get used to the idea that Russia is going to keep its knee on Ukraine's neck from now on? Doesn't sound like you really care about peace for Ukraine... you just don't want Russia to have to pay any further costs for their aggressions.

Is that what this discussion is about? Who cares more about Ukraine or Russia? If that's the case, then why would you favor a plan which brings more death and destruction upon the people you claim to care about so much?

Think about who benefits from all this. Certainly not Ukraine, which will be depleted of population and physically devastated from all of this when it's over. Russia doesn't seem to be benefiting either. The only ones who benefit from this are the arms makers and the Western corporations who will undoubtedly "help" Ukraine rebuild after all this is over.

 

[Estro Felino]

Is that what this discussion is about? Who cares more about Ukraine or Russia? If that's the case, then why would you favor a plan which brings more death and destruction upon the people you claim to care about so much?

Think about who benefits from all this. Certainly not Ukraine, which will be depleted of population and physically devastated from all of this when it's over. Russia doesn't seem to be benefiting either. The only ones who benefit from this are the arms makers and the Western corporations who will undoubtedly "help" Ukraine rebuild after all this is over.

As I have always said, I want this war terminate today, so no more Ukrainians and no more Russians die.
It hurts equally. Whenever Ukrainians and Russians die.

But they (we know who they are) feel so much pleasure when Russian soldiers die, so Ukrainian soldiers must sacrifice their own lives in order to make more and more Russians die.
They don't love Ukrainians. They think they are just objects. Stupid puppets. Cannon fodder to sacrifice for their shady plans.

 

[Stevicus]

I'm accused because I am opposed to war and the propaganda that justifies it, and I am opposed to war because I am not a psychopath.

I find this whole accusatory tack that some people are using here to be somewhat bemusing. It was similar during the McCarthy era, and it was also frequently used during the Vietnam War era. It's a variation on an ongoing theme: "Those who are not with us are against us."

 

[Stevicus]

As I have always said, I want this war terminate today, so no more Ukrainians and no more Russians die.
It hurts equally. Whenever Ukrainians and Russians die.

But they (we know who they are) feel so much pleasure when Russian soldiers die, so Ukrainian soldiers must sacrifice their own lives in order to make more and more Russians die.
They don't love Ukrainians. They think they are just objects. Stupid puppets. Cannon fodder to sacrifice for their shady plans.

That is what it sounds like. I don't want Ukrainians or Russians to die, but in addition to that, I don't want any NATO troops to die, either. I have family members in the military, and I don't want them to be sent over to die. Needless to say, I also don't want there to be a nuclear war.

It's also reminiscent of the Cold War era when people who had very scant, superficial, and ignorant views of the outside world would somehow claim to be supreme experts in Sovietology. People who could hardly spell their own name would presume to be highly sage and knowledgeable about what the Soviets were planning and would relentlessly attack anyone who didn't march in lockstep behind their reckless warmongering.

It's somewhat the same in this thread, where people who know next to nothing about world events and world history are presuming to lecture me on the subject. It's like creationists trying to lecture evolutionary biologists.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's somewhat the same in this thread, where people who know next to nothing about world events and world history are presuming to lecture me on the subject. It's like creationists trying to lecture evolutionary biologists.

Says the "It's not to increase their land and power, since they already have enough land" guy.

The sheer mind-bending arrogance to compare yourself to an evolutionary biologist debating creationists on this subject. It beggars belief.

 

[Stevicus]

Says the "It's not to increase their land and power, since they already have enough land" guy.

The sheer mind-bending arrogance to compare yourself to an evolutionary biologist debating creationists on this subject. It beggars belief.

I thought you were done with me.

I don't see that it's really so far-fetched, though. You haven't really demonstrated that you possess any in-depth knowledge of the subject, and the most I've seen from you are soundbites cribbed from social media. You handwave away what I say as "lectures," but what do you really know? Seriously.

 

[Magic Man]

See post #612.

I saw it and replied. Now back to the following facts:

You're supporting them here. You've explained that they expand for defense and to create a buffer zone, and that that is understandable given how the mean old west hates them and tries to invade them. Then your solution to the war is to let Russia win. That's support for Russia.

Now, how long do you want to do this, or do you ever plan to offer an actual reply to anything?

 

[Revoltingest]

I find this whole accusatory tack....

Not an accusation.
Just recognizing Russian sympathy.
That having been said, it shouldn't
be said overly often.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm accused because I am opposed to war and the propaganda that justifies it, and I am opposed to war because I am not a psychopath.

Sorry, that doesn't explain it. You're here defending Russia. They are the warmongers here. They invaded a sovereign country. I'm actually opposed to war, which is why I'm opposed to Russia's invasion and don't try to defend it or them.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I don't see that it's really so far-fetched, though.

The historically illiterate tend not to be able to tell when they're historically illiterate.

 

[Stevicus]

I saw it and replied. Now back to the following facts:

You're supporting them here. You've explained that they expand for defense and to create a buffer zone, and that that is understandable given how the mean old west hates them and tries to invade them. Then your solution to the war is to let Russia win. That's support for Russia.

Now, how long do you want to do this, or do you ever plan to offer an actual reply to anything?

Well, there's really not much else to say, is there? All you're doing here is accusing me and presuming to set yourself up as my judge and jury. I have no obligation to respond in that context. You've been mischaracterizing my position and twisting it around for reasons that only you know, acting more as a prosecuting attorney rather than someone to have a reasonable discussion in good faith.

So, where does that leave us?

It might be better, if you wish to continue this, to use direct quotes of mine, citing the post numbers, and then either ask direct questions or make specific, unambiguous arguments about what exactly you find factually incorrect. Please do not attempt to restate my position in your own words based on your own perceptions and biases.

Also, it should be noted that making observations about who or what you think I "support" is totally irrelevant to this discussion. That doesn't change or refute any facts I've stated.

Me: 2+2=4
Magic Man: You support Russia!

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, the U.S. and other Western governments have been doing exactly that. It hasn't produced the desired result, so perhaps another tack might be considered.

So, to recap:

Russia invades a sovereign country for no reason other than to take it over or at least depose its government.
The West tries to help Ukraine and pressure Russia to stop its invasion.
You: Well, that hasn't worked, so I guess Ukraine should just give up, and we'll just let Russia win.
Us: OR Russia could do the right thing and stop its attempt at invasion.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, there's really not much else to say, is there? All you're doing here is accusing me and presuming to set yourself up as my judge and jury. I have no obligation to respond in that context. You've been mischaracterizing my position and twisting it around for reasons that only you know, acting more as a prosecuting attorney rather than someone to have a reasonable discussion in good faith.

So, where does that leave us?

It might be better, if you wish to continue this, to use direct quotes of mine, citing the post numbers, and then either ask direct questions or make specific, unambiguous arguments about what exactly you find factually incorrect. Please do not attempt to restate my position in your own words based on your own perceptions and biases.

Also, it should be noted that making observations about who or what you think I "support" is totally irrelevant to this discussion. That doesn't change or refute any facts I've stated.

Me: 2+2=4
Magic Man: You support Russia!

It's true there's not much else to say, and you yet you keep posting.

You defended Russia by claiming they expand for defensive purposes and to create a buffer zone. You said that's understandable given how many times they've been invaded. That's a defense of Russia. That's just a fact. You have yet to even address it. All you did was try to dismiss it by dishonestly calling it "McCarthyism".

Your support of Russia is entirely relevant. When I corrected you on the claim I originally replied to, your tactic was to turn this into me falling for Western propaganda and thinking it's good vs. evil with Russia being evil. That's more dishonesty and more of your tacit support for Russia. Pointing out that these things are support for Russia is a response to your own claims about me.

You: Russia just tries to defend itself and create a buffer zone because they get invaded. You just think Russia is evil due to propaganda.
Me: You support Russia (because those things you just said are entirely supporting Russia).

 

[Stevicus]

Not an accusation.
Just recognizing Russian sympathy.
That having been said, it shouldn't
be said overly often.

It just comes across as some kind of desperate ploy, though.

It's like when Trump says that "Biden is a Palestinian." It's a ridiculous, puerile tactic which solves nothing and adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[Magic Man]

Is that what this discussion is about? Who cares more about Ukraine or Russia? If that's the case, then why would you favor a plan which brings more death and destruction upon the people you claim to care about so much?

Think about who benefits from all this. Certainly not Ukraine, which will be depleted of population and physically devastated from all of this when it's over. Russia doesn't seem to be benefiting either. The only ones who benefit from this are the arms makers and the Western corporations who will undoubtedly "help" Ukraine rebuild after all this is over.

This makes absolutely zero sense.

Russia invaded Ukraine. What we favor is for Ukraine to maintain its independence from Russia, like they want. You're telling Ukraine what they should actually want here. "No, stop fighting for your freedom and just give up. All the attempt to keep your freedom will do is result in more death and destruction." Newsflash, giving up with result in a lot worse.

The fact that you so confidently assert that arms makers are the reason Ukraine still chooses to fight for its freedom is mind-boggling. Yes, Ukraine is only trying to not be conquered by another country so the arms makers can make more money. It has nothing at all to do with them, you know, not wanting to be conquered.

 

[Revoltingest]

It just comes across as some kind of desperate ploy, though.

That's just your way of deflecting.