Ultra Orthodox men can now be drafted in Israel. Thoughts?

[David1967]

@David1967 ,

Wow, do you remember before the war, Jay and I were arguing about the same exact thing? In your thread?

Deja-vu, all over again

Honestly, I would have to go back and look. I've slept since then and not been on the forum much. New grandbaby to spend time with.

 

[dybmh]

Honestly, I would have to go back and look

Please don't. "Not my finest hour", is a massive understatement.

New grandbaby to spend time with.

Mazel Tov!

I've slept

I'm jealous.

 

[sun rise]

did I do this?

did I do this?

did I exclude anyone?

You asserted:

Torah scholars increase the peace

and posted an image that asserted that a Psalm was titled "The Peace of the Torah Scholars" which I objected to.

Studying Torah does not necessarily involve praying for peace. The shema, for example, is not a prayer for peace.

And you asserted that the decision to allow drafting of Haredim was a mistake along with Psalm image implied to me that Haredim deserve special privileges.

So my assertion is: Everyone who prays for peace increase the peace whether they be Torah scholars or not. And I assert that the prayers of everyone are equal unless they be tzaddikim (which is a different matter to me and a digression from the thread).

There is another dimension to the question of prayer: “Unless we believe that God renews creation every day, our prayers grow habitual and tedious" .Baal Shem Tov - So to me it's not the reciting of words that is true prayer. But I have no way of knowing the inner life of those that pray outside of knowing that in general many prayers are superficial.

And no, you did not exclude anyone.

 

[dybmh]

and posted an image that asserted that a Psalm was titled "The Peace of the Torah Scholars" which I objected to.

It didn't.

Studying Torah does not necessarily involve praying for peace.

Agreed.

And you asserted that the decision to allow drafting of Haredim was a mistake along with Psalm image implied to me that Haredim deserve special privileges.

Ahhhhhhhh. Got it. Thank you.

Everyone who prays for peace increase the peace

Perhaps. If that's true, it's a different mechanism of effect compared to the Torah Scholar.

I assert that the prayers of everyone are equal unless they be tzaddikim (which is a different matter to me and a digression from the thread).

I also disagree.

There is another dimension to the question of prayer: “Unless we believe that God renews creation every day, our prayers grow habitual and tedious" .Baal Shem Tov

The Besht.

So to me it's not the reciting of words that is true prayer.

Interesting.

But I have no way of knowing the inner life of those that pray outside of knowing that in general many prayers are superficial.

It's a practice. The Besht writes: " ... our prayers grow habitual and tedious." He is writing about a daily practice. Practice makes perfect. Even if the inner experience does not match the intention, even if the intention is not there, the act of articulation when the content is "bringing peace" "Shalom", I am certain there is a positive effect on the speaker. And this positive influence ripples.

you did not exclude anyone.

Thank God. You scared me.

 

[David1967]

Please don't. "Not my finest hour", is a massive understatement.

LOL. Ok

Mazel Tov!

Thank you!

 

[dybmh]

Haredim deserve special privileges.

My assertion is that the bochurim ( Haredi professional students, who are simultaneously teachers ) are doing very important work in defense of the country and in defense of each and every human being on the planet. They are addressing the root cause of all conflict everywhere in perpetuity. Why in the world should their work be interrupted? Why are they being given guns? That is a stop-gap, temporary solution at best. The bochurim are not prepared for battle. It's a terrible idea.

Each individual has a part to play, definitely. But it's foolish to take a person out of their comfort zone, out of the field of their expertise. A good team is inclusive, yes. But the team members are assigned work which is consistent and in harmony with their natural talents and their field of experience. The bochurim are not military material.

Ultimately, your objection exposes a rather large gap in your understanding of the incredibly hard work that the bochurim are doing each and every day. A professional soldier would be exhausted and out of their depth trying to do the work of the bochurim, just as the bochurim are ill suited for search and rescue.

IF, the bochurim were NOT actively engaged in protecting the state of Israel, OK, ok. That would be different. But they are addressing the root cause of the conflict. Because of that, this is wrong. A mistake. It's a bad plan.

That is my assertion.

 

[Sargonski]

People are listening.

... in large part, beyond your awareness and comprehension.

Is the above Russian for "I Give up" ? I am well aware of the Ethnic Cleansing being conducted by this unholy union between Ultra Orthodox and Zionist factions of Likud .. a program ongoing for 7 decades .. the objective "From the River to the Sea - Israeli Sovereignty"

Which part was "beyond awareness and comprehension" friend ? When Bibi invokes "The Amalek" ... what is being suggested .. do you not know dybmh ? or are the Amalek "beyond your awareness and comprehension" ?

Tell us about the Amalek .. and how this relates to the Ultra Orthodox faction and the Likud Charter.

 

[dybmh]

Is the above Russian for "I Give up" ?

no.

 

[dybmh]

I am well aware of the Ethnic Cleansing

that's a myth

 

[dybmh]

I am well aware of the Ethnic Cleansing

that's a myth

Here you go:

 

[George-ananda]

My American instinct here is to say I don't think a modern government in a free society should have different rules for people who declare themselves in a religious sect. Every citizen should be treated the same by the law.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

@David1967

I say it's about time. It's been a disgrace that they have recieved preferential treatment. They enjoy the benefits of living in Israel, so its protection is their responsibility as well. Regardless of the line they give about praying being just as effective as shooting a gun, their real reasons for avoiding the IDF is because they don't want to be exposed to views outside their community.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If the ultra orthodox are at all like Christian fundamentalists they are the opposite of scholars.

Quite true. Their yeshivas do not teach English or math or science or critical thinking. Just Torah and Talmud and enough reading skills to read the them. This is why it is almost impossible for Haredim to leave the community -- they simply lack the skills needed to find gainful employment. It is the same way here among the Haredim in NYC. It really bothers me that their schools are not required to teach academic basics. In my mind, its a form of child abuse, because you are depriving your kid of skills necessary in the adult world.

 

[Sargonski]

no.

that's a myth

You can call the Bible story of the Ethnic Cleansing of the Amalek a myth .. it matters not to me whether it be myth or History.

What matters is that Israel has been engaging in Ethnic Cleansing for 70 years .. terrorist atrocity, crimes against humanity, targeted assassination, Collective punishment . That is no myth friend.. that is History, regardless of the Biblical story that Bibi and the Ultra Orthodox are living into.

As the Irish Delegation to the UN Said "The Hague is too good for Bibi"

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Quite true. Their yeshivas do not teach English or math or science or critical thinking. Just Torah and Talmud and enough reading skills to read the them. This is why it is almost impossible for Haredim to leave the community -- they simply lack the skills needed to find gainful employment. It is the same way here among the Haredim in NYC. It really bothers me that their schools are not required to teach academic basics. In my mind, its a form of child abuse, because you are depriving your kid of skills necessary in the adult world.

That's cult behavior designed to isolate people from the wider world and engender dependence on the cult. You find that in various authoritarian cults and sects.

 

[sun rise]

IF, the bochurim were NOT actively engaged in protecting the state of Israel, OK, ok. That would be different

From that I take it you disagree with Moshe Maya's position:

The Times of Israel: Senior Shas rabbi spurns draft compromise, says even those not studying must not enlist​

Moshe Maya’s maximalist position not shared even by politicians of his own movement; some Haredim fear army service will endanger devotion of young men exposed to outside culture
...
Some view the enlistment of Haredim who are not engaged in Torah study as an interim step toward resolving the Haredi draft controversy. “It should start with those exempted who only say they attend yeshivot [yet actually don’t attend them],” Eliyahu Glatzenberg, co-founder of the Achvat Torah nonprofit, told The Times of Israel following the High Court of Justice’s ruling.

Maya’s comments reflected the fear in some Haredi circles that army service, even one adapted to the specific needs of the community, will endanger the community by exposing young men to outside culture and leading them to mix with non-Haredi society.
...
Many promoters of greater participation by Haredim in carrying the burden of national service hope for greater flexibility on the issue in Sephardi ultra-Orthodox society, which is seen as less insular than its Ashkenazi counterpart. Yanki Deri, the son of Aryeh Deri, the leader of the Shas faction in the Knesset, enlisted to serve in the Israel Defense Forces in November, weeks after the outbreak of war with Hamas on October 7.

 

[dybmh]

You can call the Bible story of the Ethnic Cleansing of the Amalek a myth

Amakek attacked first without provocation.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Amakek attacked first without provocation.

I thought that the Hebrews were the original aggressors according to the myth.

 

[dybmh]

I thought that the Hebrews were the original aggressors according to the myth.

You think things, Sub. Rarely are they accurate when it comes to religion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You think things, Sub. Rarely are they accurate when it comes to religion.

Do you disagree with me? Where is your evidence?