Unbreaking American Hearts

[Revoltingest]

Oh then I get what you mean now, and yes I understand you're right.

I know you didn't mean any critisize or anything don't worry, I just wanted to clarify and understand what you were meaning.

And I'm not really into politics. I have interest in it for general culture purpose and to stay in touch with what's happening around, but I prefer not to be involved more than necessary (like being with a party or more on one side than another etc...) I don't put my trust in any of them. Buuuuut that's not the subject of this tread

I find politics vexing too.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I think murder is a bad word to use in the context of abortion debate because it is just too vague.

But here is a story. I can't verify it, it was posted on another forum years ago. Mary was arguing for expanded availability of late term abortion.

Mary was living with a great guy. He was funny, smart, rich, and faithful. But he wasn't interested in getting married, ever. Apparently his parents ugly divorce soured him on the whole thing.

Mary figured that if she got pregnant he would do the "right thing'. He was such a good guy. So she stopped using her birth control, without telling him. In a couple of months she was pregnant. He was thrilled at the prospect of being a daddy. He could well afford to take excellent care of his child. But he didn't change his mind about getting hitched. She tried everything to change his mind, for months. But no dice, by the time she gave up she had to go to another state to get the abortion.
She didn't want the baby if s/he didn't get her the ring and security, which is what she really wanted.
Personally I think that one was totally murder, although it was perfectly legal.

Tom

My mom was going to abort me because she was mad at my dad for a time. Thank God she changed her mind and didn't go to the appointment!

 

[Revoltingest]

To me, there is no such thing as an accidental pregnancy.
What, did the guy slip and fall and land on a naked female?
"opps, sorry about that, it was an accident."
The words we are looking for is ...
"careless actions for 18 secs of pleasure resulting in an unwanted child to be murdered"

When people take precautions against pregnancy (eg, the pill, vasectomy,
condom), & it occurs anyway, this is by definition accidental IMO.
Do you say that because people know of the risk, that this makes it intentional?
If so, then are all traffic accidents intentional?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Fortunately, there will never be enuf consensus to enact your view into law.

... especially since I wouldn't be part of that consensus. I don't want to enact it into law. I make a distinction between my own personal morality and the rules I would impose on others.

"Fascism" is not so simple as this or that particular item is made sacred. But we do have "sacred" objects which have extraordinary legal protections, eg, eagle feathers. This doesn't make us fascist....we face far more dangerous factors than that, eg, omnipresent surveillance, security theater.

I only used the term "fascism" because it was already being thrown around. I agree that a single law wouldn't make the difference between authoritarianism and freedom. Still, a law can be an example of a set of principles that would be oppressive if they were applied consistently. Criminalizing abortion is one such law. By eroding the rights of women, they erode the rights of people generally.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My mom was going to abort me because she was mad at my dad for a time. Thank God she changed her mind and didn't go to the appointment!

Of course, if she had gone through with the abortion, you wouldn't be in a position to care one way or the other.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Of course, if she had gone through with the abortion, you wouldn't be in a position to care one way or the other.

You don't know that. And I don't feel it's right to get into this, since this is my life we're talking about here.

 

[George-ananda]

My mum had two abortions and I'm proud of her.

What a disgusting thing to say.

Well, SF, I'm surprised no-one sarcastically joked 'with that kind of attitude Mr. Psycho, it seems she may have had one too few'.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Unbreaking American Hearts | National Review Online

I found this pro-life article about Planned Parenthood to be very interesting. I thought some of you on here might enjoy it as well. Personally, I believe that abortion ought to be completely illegal.

I disagree. I think the Roe vs. Wade definition of the constitutionality of a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy coupled with a fetus' right to survive (based on fetal viability) is the most sound judgement for the issue. Making abortion entirely illegal would be extremely problematic, since nations that do criminalize abortions do not see the rates of abortion go down by any significant number. The biggest impact of criminalizing abortion is the health and safety of the woman seeking a means to terminating her pregnancy.

Also, as a mother of a child on the autism spectrum, I think it's rather insulting to look at him as proof of any sort of "punishment" by a deity in the way that Toni Braxton looks at her autistic child as a form of punishment from her god due to her previous abortion. I see that perspective as insulting to my son, if I were to adopt such a perspective. I don't see him as a punishment. I see him as a blessing. I think the article, in it's push to humanize embryos, ironically dehumanizes people on the autism spectrum by referring to a person as a "punishment."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You don't know that. And I don't feel it's right to get into this, since this is my life we're talking about here.

Hey - you were the one who brought it up.

But getting away from anything that's personal to you, there are a lot of things that have to happen before a baby is born, and I think it's arbitrary to focus on the last link in that chain while ignoring the others.. If my grandfather hadn't been into photography, I wouldn't be here now (he met my grandmother at an exhibition by his camera club). Does this mean that you should all grieve my absence if in some alternative history, he picked a different hobby? Of course not.

I've heard plenty of anecdotes from people whose mother could've aborted them but didn't who focus - arbitrarily, IMO - on the abortion and not on any other factor? For instance, why is it that when a child is the product of a one-night stand, they praise their mother's decision to abort and not the mother's decision to have the one-night stand? They were both just as essential for the creation of the person who's now saying they're happy to be alive.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hey - you were the one who brought it up.

But getting away from anything that's personal to you, there are a lot of things that have to happen before a baby is born, and I think it's arbitrary to focus on the last link in that chain while ignoring the others.. If my grandfather hadn't been into photography, I wouldn't be here now (he met my grandmother at an exhibition by his camera club). Does this mean that you should all grieve my absence if in some alternative history, he picked a different hobby? Of course not.

I've heard plenty of anecdotes from people whose mother could've aborted them but didn't who focus - arbitrarily, IMO - on the abortion and not on any other factor? For instance, why is it that when a child is the product of a one-night stand, they praise their mother's decision to abort and not the mother's decision to have the one-night stand? They were both just as essential for the creation of the person who's now saying they're happy to be alive.

I'm glad that we're here and life is a wonderful thing. But that doesn't mean we should praise all the circumstances that we came about. For example, I knew a girl in high school who was raped but she decided to keep her baby. She loved her child, that was obvious. I'm glad she made the decision to keep him or her. But that doesn't make the fact that she was raped any more excusable. Rape is still a horrible thing, even if something good did come out of it in that example.

In the same way, a one night stand is still not a praiseworthy thing even though it may result in a new life. It's wonderful the child is here, but the circumstances which led to them coming into the world were not optimal.

 

[Revoltingest]

I only used the term "fascism" because it was already being thrown around.

People do bandy about extreme terms when passions flare, eh?

I agree that a single law wouldn't make the difference between authoritarianism and freedom. Still, a law can be an example of a set of principles that would be oppressive if they were applied consistently. Criminalizing abortion is one such law. By eroding the rights of women, they erode the rights of people generally.

To criminalize abortion strikes me as being somewhat in the direction of
totalitarianism. But I hesitate to address this because it polarizes conversation.
I also dislike using the term "murder" when it isn't preceded by "I believe that it's....".
Let's just say that I'm not a murderer & ZooGal is not a fascist.

 

[Alceste]

I agree as well.
At least late term is now illegal, even though it still happens.

I will prob get shot down for this, but I believe an abortion should come with an added cut and tied off tubes thing.
If a female can murder her unborn child, then she should have to give up rights to ever "accidentally" get pregnant and do it again.

To me, there is no such thing as an accidental pregnancy.
What, did the guy slip and fall and land on a naked female?
"opps, sorry about that, it was an accident."
The words we are looking for is ...
"careless actions for 18 secs of pleasure resulting in an unwanted child to be murdered"

Makes more sense to force her partner to get a vasectomy. It's cheaper, safer, and less invasive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Makes more sense to force her partner to get a vasectomy. It's cheaper, safer, and less invasive.

But that would defeat the purpose of punishing women for having sex.

 

[Alceste]

I disagree. I think the Roe vs. Wade definition of the constitutionality of a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy coupled with a fetus' right to survive (based on fetal viability) is the most sound judgement for the issue. Making abortion entirely illegal would be extremely problematic, since nations that do criminalize abortions do not see the rates of abortion go down by any significant number. The biggest impact of criminalizing abortion is the health and safety of the woman seeking a means to terminating her pregnancy.

Also, as a mother of a child on the autism spectrum, I think it's rather insulting to look at him as proof of any sort of "punishment" by a deity in the way that Toni Braxton looks at her autistic child as a form of punishment from her god due to her previous abortion. I see that perspective as insulting to my son, if I were to adopt such a perspective. I don't see him as a punishment. I see him as a blessing. I think the article, in it's push to humanize embryos, ironically dehumanizes people on the autism spectrum by referring to a person as a "punishment."

Yeah, the whole concept of children as punishment offends me deeply, but it seems to be the basis of most people's impulse to deny women's bodily autonomy if they inadvertently get knocked up. The child she would be forced to have is framed as a consequence of her poor behavior that she should be stuck with even though it is perfectly safe and simple to induce a first trimester miscarriage in this day and age with the help of your doctor, and despite the fact that a child is a massive, life-long financial and emotional obligation. If an unwanted child is punishment for allowing a birth control failure, it's a life sentence for a broken condom or a missed birth control pill. The punishment does not fit the crime, is what I'm saying.

I'm so not into that. I don't feel ashamed of having lots and lots of sex when I was young. That's what youth is for.

Then again, I wasn't raised Catholic. Seems to me that it leaves one feeling that sex, guilt and shame are inextricably entwined.

 

[Alceste]

I'm glad that we're here and life is a wonderful thing. But that doesn't mean we should praise all the circumstances that we came about. For example, I knew a girl in high school who was raped but she decided to keep her baby. She loved her child, that was obvious. I'm glad she made the decision to keep him or her. But that doesn't make the fact that she was raped any more excusable. Rape is still a horrible thing, even if something good did come out of it in that example.

In the same way, a one night stand is still not a praiseworthy thing even though it may result in a new life. It's wonderful the child is here, but the circumstances which led to them coming into the world were not optimal.

I don't know. I've had some awesome one night stands. Even "optimal" ones.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

People do bandy about extreme terms when passions flare, eh?

To criminalize abortion strikes me as being somewhat in the direction of
totalitarianism. But I hesitate to address this because it polarizes conversation.

I think it's important to call attention to this even if it does polarize the conversation.

This is just my perception, but I think that the anti-choice position often comes with an "us vs. them" mentality: that abortion restrictions only affect "sinful" people, so the "righteous" have nothing to fear from them. I think it's important to point out that their stance on abortion has wider implications for everyone. If pregnant women don't have the right to bodily security, then it would be very difficult to justify how it can be a human right at all. A government that sees no problem with controlling a woman's uterus is likely to see no problem with controlling people in other ways.

 

[kashmir]

No. He decided to rape her.

I assumed that would go without having to explain.
Of course that is rape and not voluntary sex.

When people take precautions against pregnancy (eg, the pill, vasectomy,
condom), & it occurs anyway, this is by definition accidental IMO.
Do you say that because people know of the risk, that this makes it intentional?
If so, then are all traffic accidents intentional?

Exactly, women are told the pill isn't 100% safe, nothing except not having sex is 100% safe.
It has nothing to do with intentional and since you discuss traffic accidents, regardless, almost always, someone is sighted for the accident, intentional isn't even relevant either, they happen almost always from someone being careless, we might call it an accident, but its not, its carelessness.
If anything, the innocent person hit, got in an accident from the carelessness of someone else.

My point is having sex regardless of using protection, and it fails and she gets pregnant, is not an accident in my opinion.
The only way i could see it as an actual accident, is like I said, a naked guy trips and falls on a naked woman, oops...
Yes I am being dead serious, but that would be one heck of an accident.
perhaps the odds are also zero, but that is the only way it can be an accident.

Lets really get serious here.
If you play russian roulette with a gun that forsay has 30 slots and only one of them has a bullet and oops, shoot yourself in the head, is that really an accident?
Even if it has 300,000 chambers with only one bullet, give it a spin, oops, dead, is that an accident?

Back to the car accident thing, if someone is being careless and texting and kills someone, do you really believe they can go in front of the Judge and he will even give a hoot that it was not on purpose?
Of course not, they are doing something that can cause an unwanted event to take place and know the risks.

Sex is no different, regardless of everything, if there are risks, there are risks.
Accident does not work in my perspective.
Planned and unplanned, wanted and unwanted, is about the only thing that works.

To be blunt, if a man knowingly ejaculates inside a woman, and she knowingly allows him to, accident is completely off the table in my eyes.
And in my eyes, if you play with fire and get burned, you shouldn't get a get out of jail free card, which is the murder of innocent life.

Regardless of all that, as low as the risks are, when on the pill or using a condom, I highly doubt they are even a small % of all the abortions.
I know of no one who got her preggy while she is on the pill or they used condoms.
I know it happens, but it cant be more than 10% of all unwanted preggys that turn into an abortion.
It cant be, the odds are too low.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yeah, the whole concept of children as punishment offends me deeply, but it seems to be the basis of most people's impulse to deny women's bodily autonomy if they inadvertently get knocked up. The child she would be forced to have is framed as a consequence of her poor behavior that she should be stuck with even though it is perfectly safe and simple to induce a first trimester miscarriage in this day and age with the help of your doctor, and despite the fact that a child is a massive, life-long financial and emotional obligation. If an unwanted child is punishment for allowing a birth control failure, it's a life sentence for a broken condom or a missed birth control pill. The punishment does not fit the crime, is what I'm saying.

I find the idea that children are a "punishment" to be abhorrent (I didn't read the article in the OP). Children are wonderful gifts and I think people really need to start taking it seriously and be much more cautious about what sex entails.

I'm so not into that. I don't feel ashamed of having lots and lots of sex when I was young. That's what youth is for.

Can't relate. I didn't even kiss anyone until I was 22.

Then again, I wasn't raised Catholic. Seems to me that it leaves one feeling that sex, guilt and shame are inextricably entwined.

I wasn't raised Catholic, either. Guilt and shame go back before I was ever Catholic and my regrets aren't all unwarranted.

 

[Alceste]

But that would defeat the purpose of punishing women for having sex.

Oh yeah, I forgot. When he refuses to wear a condom, "forgets" to pull out, tells her he's infertile, or otherwise consciously contributes to an unplanned pregnancy, it's still her fault if she gets pregnant because he's just a man doing what men are programmed do and she's a dirty little **** who deserves to be punished. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't know. I've had some awesome one night stands. Even "optimal" ones.

I meant optimal conditions for having a kid. But a one night stand would never be optimal in general, to me.