Unbridled Capitalism is self-destructive

[Estro Felino]

Obviously, that dint happen.
I have money.

Perhaps it is so on your planet.
But here on Earth, we know that money cannot
sit idle, lest inflation reduce its value to zero.
I even borrow other people's money to lend
to others. (I charge more interest than I pay.)

Money is an instrument. It's not the end of the existence.

Do you think that a free universal healthcare system would be detrimental to the US? To its treasury?

 

[Revoltingest]

Money is an instrument. It's not the end of the existence.

A stitch in time saves nine.

Do you think that a free universal healthcare system would be detrimental to the US? To its treasury?

No....if implemented with competent planning.

 

[Estro Felino]

No....if implemented with competent planning.

That's good.

 

[Audie]

That's good.

Three who agree.

Awful big IF re implementation though.

 

[Revoltingest]

Three who agree.

Awful big IF re implementation though.

I dread something like HIllarycare, which risked
offering us the compassion of the Department Of
Motor Vehicles, with the efficiency of the IRS,
yet deny us a legal plan B if needed.

 

[Audie]

Japanese cars? Cars are a good example for "consolidation". The history of car manufacturers is a history of bankruptcies, buy-outs and mergers. The number of original brands is constantly shrinking. Extrapolate the trend into the future and there will be about 3 conglomerates by 2040.
Examples:
"General Motors owns Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, and GMC. Hummer returned as a GMC sub-brand. GM has a formal partnership with Honda to co-develop EVs."
"Stellantis is the corporation formed from the Fiat Chrysler Automobiles and Peugeot S.A. merger. The name is explained as being rooted in the Latin verb “stello” meaning “to brighten with stars.” The FCA brands sold in the U.S. are now under Stellantis: Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat, Jeep, Maserati, and Ram. Overseas, Citroen, DS Automobiles, Opel, Peugeot, and Vauxhall are among the other Stellantis car brands."
"Volkswagen AG owns Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, Scout, and Volkswagen." - from Who Owns Which Car Brands? - Consumer Reports



Yes and no. In an ideal (i.e. dream) world, capitalism would be eliminated.
In the real world, capitalism will stay for a long, long time. But it is important that people understand how capitalism works and "bridle" it whenever it gets too powerful.

So, we at least agree that competition isn't inherent to capitalism? It has to be forced by governmeout outnt?


Yep. And capitalism is tolerated because it isn't understood.

Which is a direct result of capitalism.

I know about mergers and aquisitipns from personal
involvement. You wont educate me with cut n paste.
Car companies have competed since
for over a hundred years.
You are talking as if competition isn't real.

In your dream ( fantasy) world of zero
capitalism a farmer can't invest in a tractor
so he can grow more food. You rare right about
people not understanding capitalism. Check mirror.

Nobody thinks there should or could be
NO regulations. That's a fantasy.

Competition is the soul of capitalism.
Some try to win thro monopoly, but few have the
capacity. And except in corrupt kleptocracies like
Myanmar and Russia, it's not allowed.

Your notion that corrupt govt is a result of capitalism
is also fantasy. Some corruption is associated with
labour unions, all the entitlements, everything involving
money and power ie all govt function.

I do wish we could let you live in your fantasy world for a bit.

Maybe the stark poverty would seem groovy.

 

[Revoltingest]

I know about mergers andaquisitipns from personal
involvement. You wont educate mecwith cut n paste.
Car companies have competed since
for over a hundred years.
You are talking as if competition isn't real.

In your dream ( fantasy) world of zero
capitalism a farmer can't invest in a tractor
so he can grow more food. You rare right about
people not understanding capitalism. Check mirror.

Nobody thinks there should or could be
NO regulations. That's a fantasy.

Competition is the soul of capitalism.
Some try to win thro monopoly, but few have the
capacity. And except in corrupt kleptocracies like
Myanmar and Russia, it's not allowed.

Your notion that corrupt govt is a result of capitalism
is also fantasy. Some corruption is associated with
labour unions, all the entitlements, everything involving
money and power ie all govt function.

I do wish we could let you live in your fantasy world for a bit.

Maybe the stark poverty would seem groovy.

An argument in a nutshell....
Would you rather live in the best capitalist country,
or the best socialist country? (By "socialist", I mean
the flavor of no capitalism for the means of production.)
The preponderance of answers will show what's best.

Another brief argument...
How many posters here live in socialist countries,
& how many in capitalist ones? This polling would
speak to social liberty, ie, internet access & censorship.

 

[Estro Felino]

An argument in a nutshell....
Would you rather live in the best capitalist country,
or the best socialist country? (By "socialist", I mean
the flavor of no capitalism for the means of production.)
The preponderance of answers will show what's best.

Another brief argument...
How many posters here live in socialist countries,
& how many in capitalist ones? This polling would
speak to social liberty, ie, internet access & censorship.

I live in a socialist country.

 

[Revoltingest]

I live in a socialist country.

Violating the question's premise, eh.

 

[Heyo]

I live in a socialist country.

Like me you live in a "social market economy" (we invented it). It's still capitalist, though way better than the vulture capitalism of the US.

 

[Revoltingest]

Like me you live in a "social market economy" (we invented it). It's still capitalist, though way better than the vulture capitalism of the US.

It beats your parasitic capitalism.
Vultures are the janitors of the natural environment.

 

[Estro Felino]

Like me you live in a "social market economy" (we invented it). It's still capitalist, though way better than the vulture capitalism of the US.

I still believe they are socialist countries.
Why should we deny it?
I mean, Marx was German. There are decades of labor unions' striving and fight. There are Marx and Bakunin founding the First International , that led to the birth of SPD in 1875 and the Partito Socialista Italiano in 1892, which was heavily influenced by Bakunin, since Andrea Costa was in a relationship with Anna Kuliscioff.

Europe has deep socialist roots, and decades of workers' striving demonstrates it.

Of course there are certain ideologies that mean to suppress these roots, and to destroy the socialist soul of Europe, converting the European Nations to the soulless religion of laissez-faire. The neo-liberism theorized by Milton, Hayek and Stiglitz. Whenever an enemy is too strong and has a strong identity, the only way to suppress it is to deny its existence.

 

[metis]

I still believe they are socialist countries.
Why should we deny it?
I mean, Marx was German. There are decades of labor unions' striving and fight. There are Marx and Bakunin founding the First International , that led to the birth of SPD in 1875 and the Partito Socialista Italiano in 1892, which was heavily influenced by Bakunin, since Andrea Costa was in a relationship with Anna Kuliscioff.

Europe has deep socialist roots, and decades of workers' striving demonstrates it.

Here, Bernie Sanders refers to himself as being a "Scandinavian-style socialist", which I tend to mostly identify myself btw.

 

[Stevicus]

I still believe they are socialist countries.
Why should we deny it?
I mean, Marx was German. There are decades of labor unions' striving and fight. There are Marx and Bakunin founding the First International , that led to the birth of SPD in 1875 and the Partito Socialista Italiano in 1892, which was heavily influenced by Bakunin, since Andrea Costa was in a relationship with Anna Kuliscioff.

Europe has deep socialist roots, and decades of workers' striving demonstrates it.

Of course there are certain ideologies that mean to suppress these roots, and to destroy the socialist soul of Europe, converting the European Nations to the soulless religion of laissez-faire. The neo-liberism theorized by Milton, Hayek and Stiglitz. This was born as a reaction to suppress and repel the socialist soul of Europe.

Whenever an enemy is too strong and has a strong identity, the only way to suppress it is to deny its existence.

Bismarck was also German, and he was very staunchly anti-socialist. However, he was also pragmatic enough to realize that he had to give some perks to the working classes to lure them away from socialism. He also nationalized under state control the banks and railroads - something that American capitalists would deem sacrilegious and call for a witch-burning.

That may be why there's a difference in understanding, since too many capitalists in America view it as a religion. Anything that doesn't fall within the rigidly strict tenets of their belief system is considered heretical.

 

[Heyo]

I still believe they are socialist countries.
Why should we deny it?
I mean, Marx was German. There are decades of labor unions' striving and fight. There are Marx and Bakunin founding the First International , that led to the birth of SPD in 1875 and the Partito Socialista Italiano in 1892, which was heavily influenced by Bakunin, since Andrea Costa was in a relationship with Anna Kuliscioff.

Europe has deep socialist roots, and decades of workers' striving demonstrates it.

Of course there are certain ideologies that mean to suppress these roots, and to destroy the socialist soul of Europe, converting the European Nations to the soulless religion of laissez-faire. The neo-liberism theorized by Milton, Hayek and Stiglitz. This was born as a reaction to suppress and repel the socialist soul of Europe.

Whenever an enemy is too strong and has a strong identity, the only way to suppress it is to deny its existence.

Denying the socialist soul of Europe? Tell that the French, the Portuguese and the Greek which have real socialist parties with a respectable number of voters. East Germany had a "socialist" government 'till '89 as did the countries behind the iron curtain. Europe can't deny it's socialist roots.

 

[Estro Felino]

Bismarck was also German, and he was very staunchly anti-socialist. However, he was also pragmatic enough to realize that he had to give some perks to the working classes to lure them away from socialism. He also nationalized under state control the banks and railroads - something that American capitalists would deem sacrilegious and call for a witch-burning.

That may be why there's a difference in understanding, since too many capitalists in America view it as a religion. Anything that doesn't fall within the rigidly strict tenets of their belief system is considered heretical.

Between the Nineteenth and the Twentieth Century Central Europe was torn apart by horrific class struggles, and of course there were the political parties pandering the Great Capitalistic Bourgeoisie that did anything to counter the unions' striving, the strikes, the ceaseless unrest. It has never been either black or white. Just think that Mussolini was a prominent leader of the Italian Socialist Party, representing the revolutionary wing, while Bonomi and Turati used to represent the moderate, reformist one.

These were all intellectuals coming from humble backgrounds who were tired of watching factory workers and farm workers being exploited by the entrepreneurs.

 

[metis]

Just think that Mussolini was a prominent leader of the Italian Socialist Party, representing the revolutionary wing, while Bonomi and Turati used to represent the moderate, reformist one.

Until he decided to become a fascist.

 

[Estro Felino]

Until he decided to become a fascist.

Nobody denies it...nevertheless Socialism is not just one thing.
It's not either all black or all white. There are hundreds of shades of grey.
Socialism has countless shades; just think that after the Bolshevik revolution, the Italian Socialist Party split in three. And the Communist Party, and the Socialist Unitary Party were formed, after that split.

Mussolini has never ceased being a socialist: he was not the head of the National Fascist Party. He was chosen because he knew how to talk to socialists and to pacify the country, torn apart by a civil war between Socialists and Fascists.

 

[Audie]

I live in a socialist country.

The envy of few

 

[metis]

Nobody denies it...nevertheless Socialism is not just one thing.
It's not either all black or all white. There are hundreds of shades of grey.
Socialism has countless shades; just think that after the Bolshevik revolution, the Italian Socialist Party split in three. And the Communist Party, and the Socialist Unitary Party were formed, after that split.

Mussolini has never ceased being a socialist: he was not the head of the National Fascist Party. He was chosen because he knew how to talk to socialists and to pacify the country, torn apart by a civil war between Socialists and Fascists.

IMO, the key difference is whom has the power and how it's set up with others. Socialists are not power hungry and want to help all people, whereas a fascist wants power for themselves and for those who support him. The latter usually are "populists" who con people by pretending to be socialists so as to gain public support and Mussolini, much like Trump, was basically a con man. After all, a socialist wouldn't have "political enemies" killed in Italian-held parts of Africa as Mussolini did.