Unconditional Love verses Conditional Rewards

[Hawkins]

27 jun 2018 stvdv 013 29
God is known for "unconditional Love". What does this mean? It seems it not only confuses me

Meaning God Loves a serial killer/rapist. Even if you kill all Native Indians, Jews or animals, God will love you

Not meaning "God loves you for doing the killing part". God loves you, because that is what God does best

Tricky part: God loves unconditional BUT God Grants conditional His rewards. Like in School and Games

Quite simple to me once I could see there is a difference between "God's Love" and "God's Rewards"

Strange thing: Sometimes it seems the bad guys get the million boons, how about that? Interesting point IMO

Curious how many (dis)agree. That's why I included a little simple poll [multiple choices]

Note: Of course I know nothing about God, and how He might feel (today). I even feel not always the same
Note: So all this is just Hypothetically speaking trying to get a grip on this confusing matter
Note: Again of course hypothesis = Let's assume God exist and Has Love and Grants Rewards

NOTE: Thank you @adrian009 pointing out my mistake. To me "Unconditional Love" is clear, but "I am at a loss" that people in name of their religion do so many cruel things shouting "Allah o Akbar" or "Love thy neighbor as thyself".

No, it's a very wrong concept stated here.

Love always has an object to act upon. Your mother's love for you can be unconditional but only for you but not the ones trying to harm you. Similarly, God is a Shepherd whose unconditional love in the end goes to His sheep and His sheep only, not those wolves trying hard to harm His sheep.

"Unconditional" is a measure of the love itself but not a measure of the object love is acting upon. "You love is unconditional" but not for the worms, nor for the chickens, nor for the monkeys, nor for any other humans but your own kids. So in this case "your unconditional love" only applies to your own kids (which is the object of which your love is acting upon).

 

[stvdv]

That is what love is, psychological attachment. Nothing more nothing less.

Your opinion
I would say, let's agree to disagree on this one

May God Bless us all

 

[Sunstone]

You find out the meaning of unconditional love when you have kids.

I think you're confusing unconditional love with parental love. To see the difference, stand your kid up next to the brat who lives down the street and was conceived in an act so unholy it woke the elder gods from their graves. Then see if you unconditionally love the brat just like your own kid. We might have unconditional love for our children, but that's not really unconditional, because they must be our children first.

EDIT: I suspect you meant something along the lines of "parental love is like unconditional love...."

 

[stvdv]

Please read Psalms 11:5

It says that he who loves violence always hated his own soul.

So God loves him. Only he does not love himself

Bringing us back to the first and second Commandment "Love thy neighbor as thyself"

Most people don't get to the part to love themselves

As with most things in spiritual life. There are many levels. What is good for one, is not good enough for the other.

Circle round again

 

[Sunstone]

The god of the mystics is easier to understand as loving unconditionally than the God of Christianity and Islam, I think.

 

[sojourner]

You sound confused my friend about the 'Christian' perspective with their unconditionally loving God. Its easy. Let me help you....

God loves us unconditionally but if we don't do what He asks in a few key areas of easy to understand theology (trinity, resurrection, Divinity) He sends us to hell for eternity.

God forgives the psychopathic, genocidal killer if He repents and says Jesus is Lord.

God doesn't forgive the Hindu who devotes their entire life to helping humanity because he doesn't say Jesus is Lord

Go in peace my brother

It’s easy to beat up a straw man...

 

[InChrist]

I believe the scriptures indicate that God's love is given and available for all, but salvation and eternal life is conditional.

 

[stvdv]

Thanks for all your thoughtful questions and ideas

A bit difficult too

Tiny bit I hope. I tried to keep it light and easy. I believe truth is very simple. Too much IQ mostly is a hindrance IMHO

I could not vote, because, I don't think it is as simple as that

Not true. You can always vote, maybe you were scared to vote wrong. But whatever the reason, I made it easy for you
You can vote and always change your vote later [endless times as far as I know]
From Koran I remember 1 thing a friend once said. Better to act wrong then never act at all. And from BhagavadGita it is taught "Offer all acts to God, those will be karma free". Probably Koran teaches the same. Bible also I think.

Death is a condition right? Can God love you unconditionally - if you are dead? Bad joke.

Not a bad joke. But then I go into advaita mode with the question "Who am I", put it differently "can the soul [or whatever called] die?

So you are a nice playful, cute, adorable, pooch. Next thing you know, you are this vicious, hideous, flesh-devouring, monstrous beast. Can God love you unconditionally if you become what you were not made to be? Hmm Interesting... I think.

Also here advaita solves it. You are meant to be "pure love". The goal is to merge back into God [whatever that may be]. But if you are unfamiliar with consciousness [indian definition] then this is "very difficult", not just a bit. Even if you are familiar to realize it is also "very difficult"
Bottomline: Divine Love is not from this earth IMHO. Not until we merge/realize, are enlightened will we experience Divine Love (some?)

The scriptures say God is love, which is more than just, god has love.

My plan was to keep advaita out, that is why I put hypothesis: God has love [God is love gets you immediately into advaita I think, or devotion]

Everything God does then, is directed by love.

Correct, when we think dualistic. That was the whole point I tried to show "God unconditional Loves"
My point saying "Love is a divine attribute, and not saying God is Love" I did, because I did not want to restrict God. So I try to keep God on the right side of the equation. Few attributes for God: Love, OmniPresent, OmniScience, OmniPotent
So stating: God=Love, you see the problem immediately arise. If God=Love, then it can't equal all the others. You do have a problem
Smarter to state: Love is an attribute of God. Then you have all the time/space to add more attributes

Let's use a fictional character that everyone knows well - Superman

My favorite. I love Superman.

What does Superman do? Should he stop his son? There is only one way to do it. He has... well, let me just say - it's an excruciatingly painful death.

Though it saddens him - he must stop the monster, because of his love for humanity.

Good to realize. If superman is really super, and perfect. He can only get a perfect son. In India, when a father has a son go wayward he will pray to God "Please God tell me what I did wrong". So in your example, SM is not perfect, son is not perfect. Actions are not perfect. I prefer perfect SM
Then I don't have to solve this type of inconsistencies.

So did he not love his son? Of course. He didn't love what he became though. So was the son still the son?

Bible also states. It is not your son, it's God's son. If it is God's son, then it's God's problem to handle. Also the lesson in the Bible offering son.

It would be interesting to hear how others respond to that question.

This is why I say it is not as straightforward as it seems. Once we see the bigger picture, things start to look a whole lot different.

Many layers when being on the spiritual path. As long as we talk we don't know. When we know we don't talk. But some people don't talk, but also don't know. They can fool many, but not themselves of course. So I don't mind making stupid arguments. On RF some people are more than helpful to tell me my mistakes. That way I learn fastest.

Ezekiel 18:32

Very interesting verse. Purest, highest advaita teaching when I read this. IMHO

thanks again for sharing. Gave me a few new insights. That is what I like about sharing. Both are learning without teaching. Just listening.

 

[Mox]

I think you're confusing unconditional love with parental love. To see the difference, stand your kid up next to the brat who lives down the street and was conceived in an act so unholy it woke the elder gods from their graves. Then see if you unconditionally love the brat just like your own kid. We might have unconditional love for our children, but that's not really unconditional, because they must be our children first.

EDIT: I suspect you meant something along the lines of "parental love is like unconditional love...."

I meant that parental love is likely the closest 'you' will come to experiencing unconditional love.

As I said and you have indicated the only reason I am unconditionally attached to my children, is because of biologic necessity, I am conditioned to. For natural selection purposes.

 

[stvdv]

Who, then, is so perfect that they can lay claim to being able to provide unconditional love?

I agree. Unconditional Love is the Love of God. As long as there is Ego, there is conditional Love. When Ego is gone, generally the body is also gone. When body is gone Conditional Love of course is gone, but that is a quite drastic solution to get rid of conditional Love.

For me it is already a big step to realize and admit that there is plenty of ego. Makes, keeps me humble. Creates a feeling of awe and wonder for God, who does have this Unconditional Love. And giving me the drive to aim high and work hard to unlearn bad habits etc.

 

[Mox]

For me it is already a big step to realize and admit that there is plenty of ego.

Having an ego is necessary, controlling it is vital.

 

[stvdv]

Great questions! I unconditionally love others, but sometimes I must judge them

Congratulations. I still can't love unconditionally others. But I don't judge them.

 

[stvdv]

Your view is rather patronising and you come across like a plastic preacher
Your comment is unsupported and unsubstantiated and based merely on “YOUR” ideals of Christianity
So basically what you are implying is that as an example a poor unfortunate chap in a remote 3rd world country who has been living in poverty and is illiterate through no fault of his own but purely due to circumstances - this chap can’t read the bible and thus has not even a concept of Jesus or any other religion but the chap leads a good life and helps others etc- so your believe God will send this poor unfortunate to hell for eternity as punishment - then I would have to question what type of god would do that? And also question “your” interpretation of god

Thank you Magpie,
And welcome to RF

When I was young, I told my mother exactly the same words. It means you have empathy and insight, and don't follow blind.
And our brother @adrian009 believes similar as us. He also got me almost fooled, but then I saw the frubals he used. And realized he worded it as a parody as Windwalker explained.

May God Bless us All

 

[nPeace]

Thanks for all your thoughtful questions and ideas


Tiny bit I hope. I tried to keep it light and easy. I believe truth is very simple. Too much IQ mostly is a hindrance IMHO

Not true. You can always vote, maybe you were scared to vote wrong. But whatever the reason, I made it easy for you
You can vote and always change your vote later [endless times as far as I know]
From Koran I remember 1 thing a friend once said. Better to act wrong then never act at all. And from BhagavadGita it is taught "Offer all acts to God, those will be karma free". Probably Koran teaches the same. Bible also I think.

Nope. I know what I am saying. Who could validate if I am right or wrong?
God is in control of his dominant quality - love. Hence, it's not unconditional... Also based on the examples I gave - conditions apply.
If you insist, I'll vote.

Not a bad joke. But then I go into advaita mode with the question "Who am I", put it differently "can the soul [or whatever called] die?


Also here advaita solves it. You are meant to be "pure love". The goal is to merge back into God [whatever that may be]. But if you are unfamiliar with consciousness [indian definition] then this is "very difficult", not just a bit. Even if you are familiar to realize it is also "very difficult"
Bottomline: Divine Love is not from this earth IMHO. Not until we merge/realize, are enlightened will we experience Divine Love (some?)


My plan was to keep advaita out, that is why I put hypothesis: God has love [God is love gets you immediately into advaita I think, or devotion]


Correct, when we think dualistic. That was the whole point I tried to show "God unconditional Loves"
My point saying "Love is a divine attribute, and not saying God is Love" I did, because I did not want to restrict God. So I try to keep God on the right side of the equation. Few attributes for God: Love, OmniPresent, OmniScience, OmniPotent
So stating: God=Love, you see the problem immediately arise. If God=Love, then it can't equal all the others. You do have a problem
Smarter to state: Love is an attribute of God. Then you have all the time/space to add more attributes


My favorite. I love Superman.




Good to realize. If superman is really super, and perfect. He can only get a perfect son. In India, when a father has a son go wayward he will pray to God "Please God tell me what I did wrong". So in your example, SM is not perfect, son is not perfect. Actions are not perfect. I prefer perfect SM
Then I don't have to solve this type of inconsistencies.


Bible also states. It is not your son, it's God's son. If it is God's son, then it's God's problem to handle. Also the lesson in the Bible offering son.




Many layers when being on the spiritual path. As long as we talk we don't know. When we know we don't talk. But some people don't talk, but also don't know. They can fool many, but not themselves of course. So I don't mind making stupid arguments. On RF some people are more than helpful to tell me my mistakes. That way I learn fastest.


Very interesting verse. Purest, highest advaita teaching when I read this. IMHO

thanks again for sharing. Gave me a few new insights. That is what I like about sharing. Both are learning without teaching. Just listening.

A perfect son doesn't mean - one-direction. That son can turn ugly - his choice.
Yes, it's God's problem to deal with. In fact he is dealing with not just that one problem, but all others.
Can the soul die? Genesis 2:7, 15-17; 3:19; Ezekiel 18:4

 

[stvdv]

s God both a perfect Mother and Father that He/She shows a balanced unconditional love? Or is He the raging authoritarian capable at any time of utter destruction of His creation. The Bible suggests the latter

To me God has been nothing but a perfect Mother and Father showing a balanced unconditional love
I must admit that I was the most pleasing person walking the earth. No was not in my vocabulary. Maybe God became so nice because I was so nice to Him.

Maybe I have re-written the raging authoritarian God of the Bible. And now we have a Loving God only.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe the scriptures indicate that God's love is given and available for all, but salvation and eternal life is conditional.

Whats the difference?

 

[Mox]

Whats the difference?

Love me back or I kill you forever!

 

[stvdv]

My father was a very tyrannical man, a far right nationalist who would brook no argument, pitiless and merciless, my father believed the way to raise men was to discipline them like soldiers. To use the iron fist at every opportunity. My mother is a different person, however she was dependent on alcohol for a very long time and was essentially absent from my childhood. I raised myself.

When it comes to my children, I looked at my father and mother, and vowed to be nothing like either.

Thank you for sharing. And congratulation that you managed to decide "this I will not repeat what they did"
My father was very demeaning to me, so that I did not want to live anymore. But he was not tyrannical like yours. That must have been very hard I think. My father broke me emotionally, but he meant well, he was just full of emotionally trauma's which he never dared to face and solve. So that's why it is relatively easy for me to forgive him. But I do not let him in my life as long as he still insists to walk over my boundaries.

One good thing came out of it. My father drove me into spiritual life and away from attachment to family. So I am grateful for that. Of course he tried to demean my spiritual life also, but then I kicked him out of my life. Children should obey parents, BUT some parents forget that they are to blame if they mess up their children and do need to say sorry also when making mistakes. We all need to learn lessons.

 

[Windwalker]

Love is psychological attachment. A subjective condition of the mind. A product of neurological and biochemical interactions.
There is no magic required.

Love is what you say, in a certain context. Love starts out that way in a conditional and feeling state. But it develops into some more than that. It becomes a way of seeing, experiencing, and understanding life itself. At this point, it's far beyond mere subjective emotional and psychological attachments. Still later in development, love becomes one's own very state of being itself. This is not emotional attachments. It frankly is truly being completely free from all attachment. This is very Buddhist.

So I am asking if when you look at the marvel of the universe, do you feel no sense of love in your very being, radiating out of the magesties of the natural world? No connections, just theoretical concepts about what reality is, without actually being a part of it with your being, somewhere at some level at least?

I see nothing but systems within systems. The natural order. The tendency of the univese to spontaneously form complex dynamic patterns of interaction. From stars to flowers.
I certainly see no magic.

But that is magical! My goodness, what a wonder all this is! No? You don't feel yourself standing in "rapt awe" at the marvel of creation? You don't see as blowing the mind or inspiring the soul? Just a bunch of stuff you need to catalog with the thinking mind?

I do not understand at all when people suggest that there is 'magic' in the world or in creation. I dont know what that means.

You are a much too literal soul! Are you unable to look at the world and see it as "miraculous"? Must for you in order to relate to it have to have the mechanics and the bits explained? What need is there for poetry? What need for music? What need for art? What need for metaphors, when nothing but "systems within systems" is all you see?

BTW, I too see systems within systems, and the whole progression of the material world coming into being exactly as science reveals. But it's all about the eye that is able to see all of it, as poetry that sees the magic, that sees the miracle. Some people don't "get" music or dance or poetry or song, so I suppose they don't get creation that way either. They just see stars in the night sky, not an incomprehensible, transcendent Beauty.

I see only what is real and measureable. I cannot see the unreal.

Can you measure your thoughts?

 

[InChrist]

Whats the difference?

The difference is that Love does not enable destructive behavior. In the case of God, although He freely offers His love to every person He will not enable abusive, evil people who persist in their sin and refuse to change or stop harming themselves and others to enter into the eternal home He has in store for those who desire to reside where Love is lived out.