Undercover atheists in LDS Church

[Iti oj]

that is how you learn
you cannot expect others to be able to learn in the same manner as you though


to each his own.

Thank you for finding words to express what i could not. Not to mention that not every in group is as excepting as outsiders as odion group was.

 

[Breathe]

then the bigger question is this...
how can one believe in disbelief?

I don't get what you mean.

you make it seem as though ross and carrie know everything there is to know...which wasn't their position...no one knows...

This is not what I said, nor was it my intention to say such a thing.

how is that deceptive...either it applies to a person who admits they do not have all the answers or not.

They used the analogy of "having enough faith to move mountains" by its size, making it seem like they were more believing than they were.

essentially what you are saying is you need to believe in order to believe....

You need to believe in Mormonism to be a Mormon, and only Mormons take Mormon baptism. It's not hard to understand.

right...you have to believe in order to believe or a mormon to be a mormon
it doesn't add up to me.

Without seeming like I'm attacking you, as it's not my intention: I'm not interested in if it does or doesn't add up to you as this is not the thread for such things, and I do not wish for the thread to be taken off topic. It's quite simple that you need to believe in Mormonism in the message to take initiation and receive the priesthood etc. The fact that they did not indicates deceit. I'm not here to convert you to Mormonism. I'm not even Mormon. This whole thread, my whole issue, has been the deceit they did in order to get baptism, as baptism is not bestowed on people who do not believe. I'm not interested in "you have to believe to believe" and such like that.

the entire idea that god will not reveal himself to someone that is skeptical, makes the notion that god isn't willing to reveal himself all the more logical

I dunno; I don't believe God reveals himself. They did, but that's the whole "mustard seed" thing anyway.

 

[Breathe]

I'm sorry i did not mean to offend.

No need to apologize. You didn't offend. I don't get offended easily, especially over anonymous text on the internet (no offence meant).

new line of questioning. what makes lieing and deceiving inherintly wrong?

Ethics.

Start here: BBC - Ethics - Lying

that is how you learn
you cannot expect others to be able to learn in the same manner as you though


to each his own.

Yes, it is how I learn.
I can expect people not to deceive others. Why should I respect the claim of a liar?

Society isn't loose and immoral into thinking that lying to people is wrong. :areyoucra

 

[waitasec]

I don't get what you mean.

lets go with the mustard seed parable:
"“What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it? It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds on earth. Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds can perch in its shade.”
would it be fair to say hope is the mustard seed...?
without the willingness to hope, faith is useless...
now why are you saying ross and carrie don't hope in finding that special peace mormons talk about when they mention their belief?

 

[Breathe]

lets go with the mustard seed parable:
"“What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it? It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds on earth. Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds can perch in its shade.”
would it be fair to say hope is the mustard seed...?
without the willingness to hope, faith is useless...
now why are you saying ross and carrie don't hope in finding that special peace mormons talk about when they mention their belief?

I never said they didn't hope.
Just they don't believe it.

You have to believe it to get baptised.

 

[waitasec]

I never said they didn't hope.
Just they don't believe it.

You have to believe it to get baptised.

but that is what mean when i say you need to believe in order to believe and no one, i think, is not capable of hoping.

 

[Breathe]

but that is what mean when i say you need to believe in order to believe and no one, i think, is not capable of hoping.

Not everyone wants an afterlife though.

 

[waitasec]

Not everyone wants an afterlife though.

you can count me out....

 

[McBell]

then the bigger question is this...
how can one believe in disbelief?
it can't work...as per my discourse with mestamia

And all that discourse revealed is how willing you are to chase your own tail.

 

[Katzpur]

Ask a Mormon.

A Mormon would tell you that the steps are (1) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, (2) reptentance for one's sins, (3) baptism. All three are required. They obviously did not have faith in Jesus Christ. Without a belief in God, there is really not recognition of sin. Consequently, they could not really have repented of sins they did not acknowledge. Baptism did not turn them into Mormons.

 

[Katzpur]

How could they not see truth how could we not see the truth of them.
how could they spend so much time acting speaking and being a mormon and not get indocternated.
How dare they befriend us on falsehoods (well if you liked them then you liked them nothing false about genuine friend ship shouldnt matter what faith they are or arent)

How can people be so idiotic?

 

[Iti oj]

How can people be so idiotic?

That depends on which people we are refering to. lol people are idiots for many different reasons and in diffrent ways. So who were you refering to?

 

[Katzpur]

That depends on which people we are refering to. lol people are idiots for many different reasons and in diffrent ways. So who were you refering to?

Mostly people who see themselves as experts on a topic they actually know next to nothing about. I'm not naming names.

 

[Iti oj]

Mostly people who see themselves as experts on a topic they actually know next to nothing about. I'm not naming names.

so you mean a person not either the atheist or mormons in question on this thread?

 

[waitasec]

And all that discourse revealed is how willing you are to chase your own tail.

no that was the cat....
it's the notion of believing without a sense of hope.

 

[Evandr]

So you think they misrepresented themselves; how do you think they did this, exactly? Please give specific points.

In order for their experiment to have any value to them they had to represent that they were truly interested in finding something greater than themselves, this was not the case with them, their apparent intent was to derail, demean, and expose the "flaws" they were certain existed. They say they do it so others don't have too which makes absolutely no sense at all because the experience is different for everyone.

As I mentioned before, I can only find one instance where they actually lied, though as I pointed out, they were told by the missionaries, effectively, that even though they felt like they couldn't keep that promise then, God would provide them with the ability to do it.

We all have the ability to do it but we must first overcome our fears and trust in God who will guide us if we earnestly seek to be guided. their little charade had nothing to do with seeking enlightenment but had everything to do with seeking loud laughter and puffery, to them it was a game wherein they think themselves the winner - their eyes are wide shut.

Of course he wouldn't give this to them. You can't expect a "Damascus Road" experience from God.

Then the whole exercise was futile and profited nothing

And, apparently, they were also told that faithfulness and motivation to diligence would come as a matter of course.

Of course that is the case, the teachings of missionaries is the beginning of a journey that has to be paved with faith, diligense, and the real intent to learn without playing games.

If the missionaries were willing to guide people to baptism despite doubting that they were sincere, then I think this very much reflects on the missionaries.

The missionaries simply illuminated the path, it is up to the individual to make such a decision about baptism. It is said you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. Missionaries will teach anybody who sits and listens, they will even baptize them if they show a desire for it but baptism is a covenant between a person and God, it does not reflect on the missionaries other than they did as they were called to do.

... and perhaps on the LDS missionary system as well. I think this probably goes beyond this podcast, but I've heard interviews with former Mormons who talked about being pressured to get as many converts as they could while they were missionaries. Could the result in this podcast be a symptom of this problem?

Everyone must be warned against complacency with regard to the commandments of God. Getting converts is not the point, setting as many people’s feet on the path of truth is; this is not a game of numbers it is very serious business with eternal ramification so of course missionaries are (I would not say pressured I would say admonished because that is why they are there), admonished to preach the word to as many as possible and not judge the intent of the hearer. If it were not so there would be no point in missionary work to begin with; judging who will and who will not be taught is no the responsability of the missionary, they are a light on a hill that anyone can come too.

 

[Breathe]

A Mormon would tell you that the steps are (1) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, (2) reptentance for one's sins, (3) baptism. All three are required. They obviously did not have faith in Jesus Christ. Without a belief in God, there is really not recognition of sin. Consequently, they could not really have repented of sins they did not acknowledge.

Thank you for the answer, Katzpur.

This has been what I've been trying to get across. From my experience, baptism in Mormonism isn't easily acquired, and so they wouldn't baptise people who didn't believe. It's not like the "cultural Christian baptism" that some irreligious people have, from my experience. The local Mormons wished for me to get married to my wife before they would even consider me getting baptised.

Baptism did not turn them into Mormons.

For some reason, they seemed to be expecting super magic water that turns people's opinions upside down upon immediate contact without any effort or faith required.

I guess that's one of many LDS doctrinal misconceptions though.

 

[waitasec]

A Mormon would tell you that the steps are (1) faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, (2) reptentance for one's sins, (3) baptism. All three are required. They obviously did not have faith in Jesus Christ. Without a belief in God, there is really not recognition of sin. Consequently, they could not really have repented of sins they did not acknowledge. Baptism did not turn them into Mormons.

are you suggesting god will not reveal himself to a skeptic or an investigator as the elders called ross and carrie

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In order for their experiment to have any value to them they had to represent that they were truly interested in finding something greater than themselves, this was not the case with them, their apparent intent was to derail, demean, and expose the "flaws" they were certain existed.

Again: what makes you say this? Specifics, please.

If you gained this knowledge by peering into their souls, say so. If you inferred it from the content of the podcast, then tell me what they actually said to make you think this.

They say they do it so others don't have too which makes absolutely no sense at all because the experience is different for everyone.

It's the slogan for the show and meant as a joke. Don't look for any deep philosophical insights in it, and don't expect them to have vetted it against LDS doctrine.

We all have the ability to do it but we must first overcome our fears and trust in God who will guide us if we earnestly seek to be guided. their little charade had nothing to do with seeking enlightenment but had everything to do with seeking loud laughter and puffery, to them it was a game wherein they think themselves the winner - their eyes are wide shut.

How can you be sure? The impression I got from them was that while they started out dubious (maybe very dubious) of the LDS Church, they really were trying to find out the truth about it and were willing to discard any misconceptions that they had.

I'm not sure whether this counts as "seeking enlightenment" to you, but if you're suggesting a situation where a person can't approach the LDS Church without already deciding that it's a source of "enlightenment", then it seems to me that you're effectively arguing that a person has to be a Mormon for them to become a Mormon. Is this what you're trying to argue?

Then the whole exercise was futile and profited nothing

I don't think you picked up on my sarcasm. My fault for not using some sort of smilie, I suppose, but I thought that a Christian would've been able to recognize that God is more than able to dole out "Damascus Road" experiences to his heart's content.

Of course that is the case, the teachings of missionaries is the beginning of a journey that has to be paved with faith, diligense, and the real intent to learn without playing games.

I think they had a real intent to learn, and I think they could've had diligence and faith if they had seen reason for these things.

Do you think that everyone who examines the LDS Church and finds it lacking necessarily approached it dishonestly?

The missionaries simply illuminated the path, it is up to the individual to make such a decision about baptism. It is said you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink. Missionaries will teach anybody who sits and listens, they will even baptize them if they show a desire for it but baptism is a covenant between a person and God, it does not reflect on the missionaries other than they did as they were called to do.

So missionaries don't influence people's decision to get baptized? They never encourage people to be baptized? I find this hard to believe.

Everyone must be warned against complacency with regard to the commandments of God. Getting converts is not the point, setting as many people’s feet on the path of truth is; this is not a game of numbers it is very serious business with eternal ramification so of course missionaries are (I would not say pressured I would say admonished because that is why they are there), admonished to preach the word to as many as possible and not judge the intent of the hearer. If it were not so there would be no point in missionary work to begin with; judging who will and who will not be taught is no the responsability of the missionary, they are a light on a hill that anyone can come too.

From what I've heard and read on the subject, this sentiment is not universally held by all LDS missionaries and the people managing them.

And I notice that you acknowledge some of the pressures I'm talking about, even if you dismiss their effects.

 

[krsnaraja]

They Do It So You Don’t Have To | Friendly Atheist

Looks like an atheist couple recently went through all the motions to join the LDS Church so they could talk about it on a podcast. Do you think think it is ethical for people to lie to others just to get an inside look at their beliefs?

They simply have axe to grind against the LDS. There`s no other reason I can think of why these couple did what they had to do. Their case is an isolated one. This thread whoever started it don`t like atheists. He`s putting atheists in a bad light. I have friends who are atheists & they are better situated than theists. Why are we so proud to declare ourselves theists when what we do in private maybe much worse than what atheist do in public.