Undercover atheists in LDS Church

[McBell]

no. to be willing to believe is.
the oath confirms blind faith.

How so?

 

[waitasec]

How so?

by faith.

 

[McBell]

by faith.

If you are reduced to going in circles...

 

[waitasec]

If you are reduced to going in circles...

it's not my circle...
i'm merely a commentator of what i see

 

[Evandr]

From what they said in the podcast, I think they did tell the truth to the missionaries. The only actual lies I was able to spot were during their pre-batismal interview.


What about becoming strong if you're basically weak? That's more what I was going for.

These two individuals presented a bowl of plaster of Paris and represented it to be cake mix upon which they were told that by doing certain things they would have a cake. That does not give them any justification to decry others because after going through the motions with their bowl of gypsum and cement they did not have a cake; just what did they expect, the Lord will not intentionally throw pearls before swine and certainly not provide the quintessential element in a real missionary experience, namely, the spirit of truth and revelation which brings about the "change" the missionaries spoke of. You simply cannot pull the wool over our Heavenly Father's eyes, I am quite sure that these two people were told, as are all perspective converts, that the blessings mentioned depended upon their diligence and faithfulness.
I'm quite sure the missionaries sensed something was lacking but they have a duty not to judge and to see it through as long as all participants were willing. These two individuals were simply shooting themselves in the foot leaving the missionaries and the gospel unscathed. Anyone is free to hear the missionary messages and then choose for themselves regardless of their ulterior motives.

 

[Breathe]

how does their baptism affect other people...?
it is a personal journey and you cannot expect people to understand the same subjective meaning of baptism.

It's insensitive, ignorant, and insulting to the believers and the deceit taken is uncalled for. Nobody likes being lied to. I don't see what the issue with admitting they acted like douches is. There was no reason for them to do it. You do not take a public declaration of belief in a religion you do not believe in for a personal journey, unless you're an insensitive ******* trying to cause trouble. It's that simple.

how does one go through the process of becoming a mormon without being baptized?

Ask a Mormon.

 

[waitasec]

It's insensitive, ignorant, and insulting to the believers and the deceit taken is uncalled for. Nobody likes being lied to.

if baptism is a personal experience how are they lying to anyone?
it's like saying people who get divorced are somehow threatening the sanctity of MY marriage.

I don't see what the issue with admitting they acted like douches is. There was no reason for them to do it.

the pod cast was the reason

You do not take a public declaration of belief in a religion you do not believe in for a personal journey, unless you're an insensitive ******* trying to cause trouble. It's that simple.

if that's how you choose to take it...so be it.

Ask a Mormon.

but that would be relying on someone elses subjective POV which is readily available
they wanted their own personal experience

 

[Breathe]

if baptism is a personal experience how are they lying to anyone?
it's like saying people who get divorced are somehow threatening the sanctity of MY marriage.

That's an interesting jump you have there. It's nothing like saying that.

the pod cast was the reason

The pod cast was the reason for them going there.
I don't see them being baptised as Sikhs.
Or going on Hajj.
So why did they?

but that would be relying on someone elses subjective POV which is readily available
they wanted their own personal experience

So they knew what they were doing was selfish and deceitful and were fine with it. I don't know about you, but I don't like being lied to by someone.

Saying they didn't want someone else's POV is unimportant. If you don't believe, you should have the decency not to get baptised into that religion: you don't believe it, so it doesn't matter how curious you are. If you're that curious, ask a few people. Of course it's going to be spiritual for them, as it's a spiritual time. If you don't believe it, it means nothing more than being submerged in water, so what were they expecting to happen if they hold no value in it? Especially then don't go and do a podcast going "Hurrrr they're harmful to women".

 

[Gaura Priya]

Coming to religion is not just a fun game. When you go through any initiation ritual, whether it be shahadah, baptism, diksha, the Triple Gems, etc. you're making a commitment to not only follow the teachings in a more serious manner, but also you are committing yourself to a community that has accepted you into their fold. You've basically gained their trust in hoping to contribute and also be able to be part of a new family.

Religion is a culture, a way of life. It actually AFFECTS people, believe it or not. It's sometimes even inseparable to the ethno-social culture of peoples.

Some of us have better things to do like being a good person, than 'infiltrating' another person's culture, belief system, and local community for 'kicks'.

 

[Breathe]

Exactly!

 

[waitasec]

That's an interesting jump you have there. It's nothing like saying that.

well it is a ritual a right of passage and it is a personal experience...i think it's a totally viable argument

The pod cast was the reason for them going there.
I don't see them being baptised as Sikhs.
Or going on Hajj.
So why did they?

did they cancel their pod cast?

So they knew what they were doing was selfish and deceitful and were fine with it. I don't know about you, but I don't like being lied to by someone.

who's lying to god?

Saying they didn't want someone else's POV is unimportant.

we do it so you don't have to...is their motto

If you don't believe, you should have the decency not to get baptised into that religion: you don't believe it, so it doesn't matter how curious you are.

this is a personal experience and if anyone is to be upset it should be god.

If you're that curious, ask a few people. Of course it's going to be spiritual for them, as it's a spiritual time. If you don't believe it, it means nothing more than being submerged in water, so what were they expecting to happen if they hold no value in it? Especially then don't go and do a podcast going "Hurrrr they're harmful to women".

the pod cast already explained why they did it..besides they each said they have family members and friends who are/were mormons...

the entire point of the pod cast is for them to got through the motions and talk about it...

so really there is no harm done...because baptism is a personal experience and their baptism should have no bearing on anyone else other than the person and god...

 

[Breathe]

well it is a ritual a right of passage and it is a personal experience...i think it's a totally viable argument

It's a rite of passage for Mormons. They weren't Mormons. The argument fails.

who's lying to god?

I did not say that.

we do it so you don't have...is their motto

Not relevant or important.

this is a personal experience and if anyone is to be upset it should be god.

And those who were lied to.
I'm not upset by it, if you implied it.
I just think it's in poor taste. I don't get mad about crass acts by strangers.

the pod cast already explained why they did it..besides they each said they have family members and friends who are/were mormons...

Then they should have asked their families and used common sense. Or are they following a fad?

so really there is no harm done...because baptism is a personal experience and their baptism should have no bearing on anyone else other than the person and god...

Lying is an act of harm and of itself, IMHO.
You are, however, forgetting that you also have to be baptised by someone else, and before that you have to take a vow to follow that. Baptism is rather personal for the person who baptises you, as well. I'm not arguing for or against the existence of God. Only that they were deliberately deceitful, and doing that is pointless.

I don't get why you think it's acceptable to deceive people to get what you're after, at all.

 

[applewuud]

This reminds me of a case of a reporter who masqueraded as gay to attend group sessions at an "Overcoming Your Homosexuality" program at a fundamentalist church. That was more personally deceptive and harmful because people were revealing intimate details about their lives in the sessions.

If the "Becoming a Mormon" courses are just about theology and not so much becoming part of a close community, this seems less damaging and intrusive, just an annoyance. It might even be a positive in that people realize religions can "hide" anything and we wind up with a more open process...like RF shows.

 

[waitasec]

It's a rite of passage for Mormons. They weren't Mormons. The argument fails.

and it's a right of passage for married couples...
it's the same thing...the kardashian wedding vs. my wedding
how does their marriage have any bearing on mine?

I did not say that.

i know you didn't say that...but who else are they lying to if baptism is a personal experience that has to do with god?

Not relevant or important.

of course it is...
it's the entire premise of their show...that is why they did it...
so i don't have to...

And those who were lied to.
I'm not upset by it, if you implied it.
I just think it's in poor taste. I don't get mad about crass acts by strangers.

they didn't lie...this was their experience to tell.

Then they should have asked their families and used common sense. Or are they following a fad?

but obviously that wasn't enough

Lying is an act of harm and of itself, IMHO.
You are, however, forgetting that you also have to be baptised by someone else, and before that you have to take a vow to follow that. Baptism is rather personal for the person who baptises you, as well. I'm not arguing for or against the existence of God. Only that they were deliberately deceitful, and doing that is pointless.

but who were they lying to if it is a personal experience?

I don't get why you think it's acceptable to deceive people to get what you're after, at all.

because that is the premise of the show...

 

[Iti oj]

They Do It So You Don’t Have To | Friendly Atheist

Looks like an atheist couple recently went through all the motions to join the LDS Church so they could talk about it on a podcast. Do you think think it is ethical for people to lie to others just to get an inside look at their beliefs?

It can be hard for people to talk and act naturally around outsiders. How can you get a real account when people are curbing their behavoirs do to observers.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

These two individuals presented a bowl of plaster of Paris and represented it to be cake mix upon which they were told that by doing certain things they would have a cake. That does not give them any justification to decry others because after going through the motions with their bowl of gypsum and cement they did not have a cake;

So you think they misrepresented themselves; how do you think they did this, exactly? Please give specific points.

As I mentioned before, I can only find one instance where they actually lied, though as I pointed out, they were told by the missionaries, effectively, that even though they felt like they couldn't keep that promise then, God would provide them with the ability to do it.

just what did they expect, the Lord will not intentionally throw pearls before swine and certainly not provide the quintessential element in a real missionary experience, namely, the spirit of truth and revelation which brings about the "change" the missionaries spoke of.

Of course he wouldn't give this to them. You can't expect a "Damascus Road" experience from God.

You simply cannot pull the wool over our Heavenly Father's eyes, I am quite sure that these two people were told, as are all perspective converts, that the blessings mentioned depended upon their diligence and faithfulness.

And, apparently, they were also told that faithfulness and motivation to diligence would come as a matter of course.

I'm quite sure the missionaries sensed something was lacking but they have a duty not to judge and to see it through as long as all participants were willing. These two individuals were simply shooting themselves in the foot leaving the missionaries and the gospel unscathed. Anyone is free to hear the missionary messages and then choose for themselves regardless of their ulterior motives.

If the missionaries were willing to guide people to baptism despite doubting that they were sincere, then I think this very much reflects on the missionaries.

... and perhaps on the LDS missionary system as well. I think this probably goes beyond this podcast, but I've heard interviews with former Mormons who talked about being pressured to get as many converts as they could while they were missionaries. Could the result in this podcast be a symptom of this problem?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't get why you think it's acceptable to deceive people to get what you're after, at all.

Ever heard of Black Like Me?

 

[Breathe]

Ever heard of Black Like Me?

I haven't. Sounds like an interesting book.
What about it, though?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I haven't. Sounds like an interesting book.
What about it, though?

I'm just wondering if you think that misrepresentation is wrong in all cases, because if you did, you would be speaking against works like that.

Edit: also relevant to this discussion, the book is based on the premise that the experience of an insider is necessarily going to be different from that of an outsider looking in... and also that the perspective of an outsider who takes on the role of an insider is going to give you a different understanding than an outsider simply talking with an insider.

 

[Photonic]

How does one...lie to God?

That makes absolutely no sense.