Undercover atheists in LDS Church

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe he would have. It didn't look to me as if they gave Him much of a chance.

So Ross and Carrie may have thwarted the will of God? How much of a chance does God need to make something happen?

Well, we know Ross and Carrie lied. We really don't know that the missionaries did.

I didn't mean to suggest that they did, only that someone in a similar position to Ross and Carrie could conceivably justify their answer by reasoning that even if they don't feel like they can keep their promise now, if they rely on what the missionaries told them, they can be confident that what they need to keep their promise will be given to them as they need it.

... which is something like the justification they themselves gave in the show.

 

[Katzpur]

So Ross and Carrie may have thwarted the will of God? How much of a chance does God need to make something happen?

Sorry, you lost me here. Do you want to clarify what you meant?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sorry, you lost me here. Do you want to clarify what you meant?

IIRC, the way Ross and Carrie put it in the podcast, they were told by their missionaries that being baptized would create an immediate and almost magical transformation in them, and this transformation would help them to live "proper" lives as Mormons.

If this was all true, then why would there be any need to wait and see? Once the baptism's done, you're either transformed or you're not, right?

And as for the "thwarting God's will" comment, it just seemed to me that you were describing a situation where God wanted one thing (i.e for them to be good Mormons for life), Ross and Carrie wanted something else, but Ross and Carrie won out over God. I'm just wondering how that would work, considering the theological implications of it.

 

[waitasec]

Maybe he would have. It didn't look to me as if they gave Him much of a chance.

faith....

but in order to have faith you have to have..................faith.

 

[Katzpur]

IIRC, the way Ross and Carrie put it in the podcast, they were told by their missionaries that being baptized would create an immediate and almost magical transformation in them, and this transformation would help them to live "proper" lives as Mormons.

I think the missionaries probably made a promise based on the fact that they believed Ross and Carrie were telling them the truth. A great many newly-baptized people do feel an immediate transformation in their lives (although I would certainly hestitate to call it "magical"). But they are entitled to it, whereas Ross and Carrie weren't. You don't magically become honest after being dunked in water if you're basically a liar.

And as for the "thwarting God's will" comment, it just seemed to me that you were describing a situation where God wanted one thing (i.e for them to be good Mormons for life), Ross and Carrie wanted something else, but Ross and Carrie won out over God. I'm just wondering how that would work, considering the theological implications of it.

One of the core beliefs of Mormonism is that God wants all human beings to be reconciled to Him and to enjoy eternal life in His presence, but that He absolutely will not force anyone to do so. He will make it possible for anyone who wants this to attain it. He will not, however, force anyone to believe against his will. Ross and Carrie won out over God because God allowed them to make the choices they did.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think the missionaries probably made a promise based on the fact that they believed Ross and Carrie were telling them the truth.

From what they said in the podcast, I think they did tell the truth to the missionaries. The only actual lies I was able to spot were during their pre-batismal interview.

A great many newly-baptized people do feel an immediate transformation in their lives (although I would certainly hestitate to call it "magical"). But they are entitled to it, whereas Ross and Carrie weren't. You don't magically become honest after being dunked in water if you're basically a liar.

What about becoming strong if you're basically weak? That's more what I was going for.

 

[Breathe]

i don't remember that... but i will check back with you on that.

have you ever heard of the TV show, "what would you do?" or "smile, you're on candid camera"

these are deceptive ploys made in order to see what individuals would do in a given situation set up by the TV creators...is that immoral?

That's in the name of a good laugh, and to be honest it's a silly comparison -- unless one has a really awkward sense of humour where they take pleasure in hurting another's deepest sentiments.

The difference here is that Ross and Carrie are atheists and they were deliberately deceitful to get something they didn't need (baptism) and they then go and report and organize things by ignorant criteria like its "value for money", and "danger value".

 

[Katzpur]

From what they said in the podcast, I think they did tell the truth to the missionaries. The only actual lies I was able to spot were during their pre-batismal interview.

It was a charade from the beginning. I don't think the missionaries can be held responsible for telling two completely insincere people that being baptized would bring about a transformation in them. You have to want the transformation and be willing to do your part.

What about becoming strong if you're basically weak? That's more what I was going for.

I don't believe the transformation the missionaries were talking about was ever meant to be "Extreme Makeover."

 

[waitasec]

It was a charade from the beginning. I don't think the missionaries can be held responsible for telling two completely insincere people that being baptized would bring about a transformation in them. You have to want the transformation and be willing to do your part.

i think ross and carrie put a spot light on the inner voice everyone has when going through this process...
in order to be sincere you have already bought into it, in other words you are already a believer...a mormon as it were.

 

[Breathe]

i think ross and carrie put a spot light on the inner voice everyone has when going through this process...
in order to be sincere you have already bought into it, in other words you are already a believer...a mormon as it were.

Obviously so. You don't get baptised into a religion you don't believe in, unless you're doing what these two did.

So yes, in some ways it is the case. You have to accept and believe Mormon doctrine to be baptised into the LDS church. I know this, because I've been to Mormon church when I was learning about it. I was asked if I believed in Mormonism, I said I don't believe it even though I like it. They did not treat baptism as something to do willy-nilly.

 

[waitasec]

Obviously so. You don't get baptised into a religion you don't believe in, unless you're doing what these two did.

So yes, in some ways it is the case. You have to accept and believe Mormon doctrine to be baptised into the LDS church. I know this, because I've been to Mormon church when I was learning about it. I was asked if I believed in Mormonism, I said I don't believe it even though I like it. They did not treat baptism as something to do willy-nilly.

then baptism is an oath...that whoever is baptized vows to believe this is the true church blindly


let me explain

they were called the investigators by the elders, they were not hiding their skepticism before they were baptized and they were up front telling them that they were science minded people who expected good rational reasons to believe these claims...they were met with this:
that is great and there are going to be things that are hard to understand but if you ask the heavenly father he will reveal to you that it is true?

now lets look at that for a moment.
ask and it will be revealed...BEFORE their baptism as investigators before buying into it... as skeptics

that didn't happen...
in order to have faith you need faith. it doesn't add up... not to me

their intention was to investigate and to be skeptical.
therefore all one needs to do is ask god for an answer, and to say god will reveal it to you...means you don't have to be a believer you can be skeptical, just ask. but it doesn't work that way because you have to be a believer to believe god revealed it to you.

when carrie spoke after her baptism this is what she said:
'if you asked me before i met the elders, 'what happens when you die?' i would have said...you're buried and then you decompose and so does your personality
if you asked me the same question a week after my meetings with the elders i would have said, ' you're buried and i think (a chuckle here and there) you decompose...if you ask me the same question after a month then i would have said...i don't know (everyone laughs) no one has reported back but i have hope...'

so here we see that in order to believe one must remain ignorant...
and in ones willful ignorance is when god reveals his answer

and this is something i totally disagree with

sorry for the rant...

 

[Breathe]

then baptism is an oath...that whoever is baptized vows to believe this is the true church blindly

It's faith.
You believe this message is true and take baptism into it, or don't believe it isn't the true church and don't get baptised into it. Belief in the teachings of LDS as the true church are the core for LDS baptism.

<<snip>>

I'm not interested in that. I don't care if they believed or not. My opposition is solely to their deceit that they took baptism for. If they made it clear they did not believe in the message of the LDS church, they would not have been baptised. My experience has indicated this is the case. The local LDS was more willing to get me married there (they said if I ever want to join their church, they want me to be married to my partner first). This is not the actions of someone who baptises carelessly.

If they did not believe, they had no reason to get baptism. Baptism is a statement of faith. It's not a "we'll see" situation.

in order to have faith you need faith. it doesn't add up... not to me

That doesn't matter. I'm not interested in faith or lack of, or how much faith is needed.

therefore all one needs to do is ask god for an answer, and to say god will reveal it to you...means you don't have to be a believer you can be skeptical, just ask. but it doesn't work that way because you have to be a believer to believe god revealed it to you.

Sort of. But not quite. You're missing some of the idea of it. This is not, however, the thread for LDS-theological discussions. (Not like I would take part in them anyway because I am not Mormon nor do I follow any of the Abrahamic religious beliefs). However, I see Mormons get a hell of a lot of hassle from people - often over stupid things like "Lol magic underpants", and it just bugs me, and I oppose deceit and deliberately inflammatory and unnecessary acts, which this thread is about.

when carrie spoke after her baptism this is what she said:

I am aware.

so here we see that in order to believe one must remain ignorant...
and in ones willful ignorance is when god reveals his answer

and this is something i totally disagree with

I have no idea why you think you must remain ignorant to believe. This seems like your own opinion, not that of the LDS or religion's beliefs in general.

It seems more like you're saying this is what the LDS believe, and that you're opposed to that, but that may or may not be what the LDS believe.


And it's quite simple: Investigating is fine. Nobody has a problem with the curious. What people have a problem with is deceit - and it's not just the religious who hold a problem. It's not just the Mormons who hold a problem with these acts. If you don't believe, then don't join the religion claiming you do. Especially don't take a public declaration of your faith in that religion and its doctrines. Don't join a religion to have your beliefs changed. That's not how religion works and is a shallow interpretation of how it actually does. Especially then, do not go and make a shallow, ill-informed, and downright ignorant podcast where you haven't even bothered to get the facts straight (in the Sikh one, they were massively ignorant of Sikh philosophy and so on).


We can see there was no need for their deceit.

 

[McBell]

then baptism is an oath...that whoever is baptized vows to believe this is the true church blindly

That is a rather interesting leap in logic.

 

[waitasec]

if ross and carrie didn't come clean with the church then i would say what they did was wrong...but the fact remains that they did and no one protested the pod cast being broadcasted...
and in fairness names were changed to protect the innocent...from their beliefs of all things.

 

[waitasec]

That is a rather interesting leap in logic.

if one is willing to believe then they already do.

 

[McBell]

if one is willing to believe then they already do.

So to take an oath is to "blindly accept"?

 

[Breathe]

if ross and carrie didn't come clean with the church then i would say what they did was wrong...but the fact remains that they did and no one protested the pod cast being broadcasted...
and in fairness names were changed to protect the innocent...from their beliefs of all things.

It's honestly little different from saying "SURPRISE! I'm already married!" to one's newly-wed spouse, in my opinion.

 

[waitasec]

So to take an oath is to "blindly accept"?

no. to be willing to believe is.
the oath confirms blind faith.

 

[waitasec]

It's honestly little different from saying "SURPRISE! I'm already married!" to one's newly-wed spouse, in my opinion.

how does their baptism affect other people...?
it is a personal journey and you cannot expect people to understand the same subjective meaning of baptism.

 

[waitasec]

We can see there was no need for their deceit.

how does one go through the process of becoming a mormon without being baptized?