Undercover atheists in LDS Church

[waitasec]

How does one...lie to God?

That makes absolutely no sense.

you got me

 

[Iti oj]

How does one...lie to God?

That makes absolutely no sense.

they are atheist...so no god to lie too...just lieing to people who see imagenary things

 

[waitasec]

they are atheist...so no god to lie too...just lieing to people who see imagenary things

if it's imaginary, then is the entire idea of baptism a lie?

 

[Iti oj]

if it's imaginary, then is the entire idea of baptism a lie?

how can it be a lie when the whole act has no meaning to them? it is an act. when one follows a social tradition is it a lie if it holds no deep meaning to them? no its just a social tradition. Why did they get baptisezed? Cause it was the traditional thing to do. How can you learn if you never try out what you wish to learn?

 

[waitasec]

how can it be a lie when the whole act has no meaning to them?

oh i get that but i was actually speaking from the POV of the mormons
if it is imaginary is it a lie?

it is an act. when one follows a social tradition is it a lie if it holds no deep meaning to them? no its just a social tradition. Why did they get baptisezed? Cause it was the traditional thing to do. How can you learn if you never try out what you wish to learn?

i am in agreement with you 100%

 

[Iti oj]

oh i get that but i was actually speaking from the POV of the mormons
if it is imaginary is it a lie?


i am in agreement with you 100%

From the Mormon point of view if its imaginary then baptism is just a symbol. Are symbols lies because they are not the real thing? No of course not its just a represention of an idea.

 

[waitasec]

From the Mormon point of view if its imaginary then baptism is just a symbol. Are symbols lies because they are not the real thing? No of course not its just a represention of an idea.

so then what the real issue here is that we are assuming this act was wrong based on what it means for the individual that has been baptized and thusly are mormon...right?
if that is the case then this makes about as much sense as me getting upset about kim kardashian filing for a divorce as a married person...
mentioned in an earlier post.

 

[Breathe]

I'm just wondering if you think that misrepresentation is wrong in all cases, because if you did, you would be speaking against works like that.

I can't say either yes or no. I can only say it's wrong in many cases. This is one of them when I think it's immoral.

Edit: also relevant to this discussion, the book is based on the premise that the experience of an insider is necessarily going to be different from that of an outsider looking in... and also that the perspective of an outsider who takes on the role of an insider is going to give you a different understanding than an outsider simply talking with an insider.

Naturally people's experiences are going to be different according to their upbringing and their social fields, culture, language, and so on.

I don't, however, think that an outsider's understanding of first-hand experience is any more valid or important than someone who is raised with there. This is because outsiders are more likely to misunderstand the nuances and subtleties that go with the cultural upbringing. By the time they are going to understand such things, they are more likely to be an insider. These two people do not fall into the insider nor knowledgeable categories of this field.

Celebrating in someone's religious rituals is fine, albeit meaningless, if they know that the person does not share the same view as them. The difference, however, is when one is deceitful in order to do it, and when they then go and brag about it and are crass and insulting.

This is what I have taken issue with in regards to these two people.

 

[Iti oj]

so then what the real issue here is that we are assuming this act was wrong based on what it means for the individual that has been baptized and thusly are mormon...right?
if that is the case then this makes about as much sense as me getting upset about kim kardashian filing for a divorce as a married person...
mentioned in an earlier post.

ahah but for real no harm no foul? who got hurt from their sharade? no one the only ones they put at risk where their immortal souls that they dont beilive in. I think this is more about hurt pride.

How could they not see truth how could we not see the truth of them.
how could they spend so much time acting speaking and being a mormon and not get indocternated.
How dare they befriend us on falsehoods (well if you liked them then you liked them nothing false about genuine friend ship shouldnt matter what faith they are or arent)

 

[Breathe]

and it's a right of passage for married couples...
it's the same thing...the kardashian wedding vs. my wedding
how does their marriage have any bearing on mine?

Not relevant or even how it can be viewed. A strange and unreasonable one.
It's more like outing you're a bigamist shortly after marriage than filing for divorce.

of course it is...

It isn't.

i know you didn't say that...but who else are they lying to if baptism is a personal experience that has to do with god?

The person who asked them if they believe in the doctrines of Mormonism and if they will follow the Words of Wisdom.

they didn't lie...this was their experience to tell.

They have no experience. This has as much meaning as falling in a pool or dunking into a lake to them. Therefore, there was no need to take another person's religious ceremony.

but obviously that wasn't enough

I believe they were doing it to be rude. Why didn't they just ask their friend to dunk them in water if that's all it was?
Why the necessity to be deceitful in order to get baptised?

but who were they lying to if it is a personal experience?

The one whom they said they believe in Mormonism and will follow LDS doctrine to in order to get baptised.

because that is the premise of the show...

No, it isn't.
It's to go somewhere, see what it's like, and then report (even if crassly and rudely) what it was like.

Nowhere there was baptism required or necessary.

 

[waitasec]

The person who asked them if they believe in the doctrines of Mormonism and if they will follow the Words of Wisdom.

to which they said, 'we have very little faith but are willing to go along with this because as you say god will reveal himself'

They have no experience. This has as much meaning as falling in a pool or dunking into a lake to them. Therefore, there was no need to take another person's religious ceremony.

sure it was. or where they lying about the whole thing?

I believe they were doing it to be rude. Why didn't they just ask their friend to dunk them in water if that's all it was?
Why the necessity to be deceitful in order to get baptised?

i disagree. as i said before...they didn't have to say anything to them and they would have been more hurt if ross and carrie disappeared

The one whom they said they believe in Mormonism and will follow LDS doctrine to in order to get baptised.

and that would be god...

No, it isn't.
It's to go somewhere, see what it's like, and then report (even if crassly and rudely) what it was like.

exactly...to see what it's like and then report...

Nowhere there was baptism required or necessary.

to become a mormon you have to be baptized...

 

[waitasec]

ahah but for real no harm no foul? who got hurt from their sharade? no one the only ones they put at risk where their immortal souls that they dont beilive in. I think this is more about hurt pride.

How could they not see truth how could we not see the truth of them.
how could they spend so much time acting speaking and being a mormon and not get indocternated.
How dare they befriend us on falsehoods (well if you liked them then you liked them nothing false about genuine friend ship shouldnt matter what faith they are or arent)

you nailed it!!!

 

[Breathe]

to which they said, 'we have very little faith but are willing to go along with this because as you say god will reveal himself'

A deliberately dishonest statement on their part. They had no faith. Shifting the blame on the believers is foolish. So what if they believe that God will reveal himself? That's why it's the story of the parable of the mustard seed: have a little faith and it will grow.

They didn't have any faith though. They deliberately used the analogy of the mustard seed in a deceptive manner.

sure it was. or where they lying about the whole thing?

Which is exactly my issue.

i disagree. as i said before...they didn't have to say anything to them and they would have been more hurt if ross and carrie disappeared

I doubt it.

and that would be god...

Belief in a specific God concept is part of LDS theology, yes. As they did not believe in God, they were already being deceitful.

exactly...to see what it's like and then report...

You're missing the point of what I said.

to become a mormon you have to be baptized...

And to be a Mormon you have to believe in God. To get baptized as a Mormon requires this belief. Thus, they were deceitful. Kinda obvious.

 

[Iti oj]

ODION have you ever spent any ammount of time acting like something you were not so you could blend in and learn? I spent 2 years as the non muslim mod of a islamic forum durring my second year i went through with acting and thinking like a muslim so i could really understand what they meant and so we could interact on a higher level. it changed everything including my perception.

 

[Breathe]

ODION have you ever spent any ammount of time acting like something you were not so you could blend in and learn? I spent 2 years as the non muslim mod of a islamic forum durring my second year i went through with acting and thinking like a muslim so i could really understand what they meant and so we could interact on a higher level. it changed everything including my perception.

I've never lied about my beliefs.
Nor would I.

I've been to almost all non-Christian places of worship in my city (except for 1 mosque), so I've been to Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, and Sikh places of worship. I have also been to a significant chunk of churches, even without having their beliefs.

I attended Mormon church to learn their theology for 6 months. Never once did I lie. Never once did I feel a need to: what I asked, they answered if they knew, or asked someone else.

When I went to masjid, I went there and asked questions and received answers. I read their scriptures. I asked Muslims their opinions.

Why do I need to lie? I'm not so low down I have to.


I try to avoid deception wherever possible as a whole.

 

[Iti oj]

I've never lied about my beliefs.
Nor would I.

I've been to almost all non-Christian places of worship in my city (except for 1 mosque), so I've been to Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, and Sikh places of worship. I have also been to a significant chunk of churches, even without having their beliefs.

I attended Mormon church to learn their theology for 6 months. Never once did I lie. Never once did I feel a need to: what I asked, they answered if they knew, or asked someone else.

When I went to masjid, I went there and asked questions and received answers. I read their scriptures. I asked Muslims their opinions.

Why do I need to lie? I'm not so low down I have to.


I try to avoid deception wherever possible as a whole.

i personaly had no need to lie either i had already had a years repour and they were happy to see me show such interest... however did you go through the motions to find out what it felt like to do what they do? train yourself to think like them? its different you were observing, you were not particpating, you cant understand the level of differance. can you understand what it is like to be poor just by driving through or hanging out in improvished neighbor hoods? **** no. you need to act and behave and put your self in situations that are realistic.

 

[waitasec]

A deliberately dishonest statement on their part. They had no faith.

then the bigger question is this...
how can one believe in disbelief?
it can't work...as per my discourse with mestamia

it's a riddle to solve
like a curious cat chasing it's own tail...

Shifting the blame on the believers is foolish.

i'm not blaming anyone of anything just calling out the shots...

So what if they believe that God will reveal himself? That's why it's the story of the parable of the mustard seed: have a little faith and it will grow.

you make it seem as though ross and carrie know everything there is to know...which wasn't their position...no one knows...
'lets see what happens'...they were called the investigators by the elders...
which means they were not totally believing it but where told if you pray and ask god he will reveal himself to you....it never happened...
basically it's the same process i went through as a supposed believer...i thought i did...but then there was no way for me to be convinced, not with what i had to go on.

They didn't have any faith though. They deliberately used the analogy of the mustard seed in a deceptive manner.

how is that deceptive...either it applies to a person who admits they do not have all the answers or not.

Which is exactly my issue.

it makes no difference to me really.

I doubt it.

we'll never know

Belief in a specific God concept is part of LDS theology, yes. As they did not believe in God, they were already being deceitful.

essentially what you are saying is you need to believe in order to believe....

You're missing the point of what I said.

but that is their motto...

And to be a Mormon you have to believe in God. To get baptized as a Mormon requires this belief. Thus, they were deceitful. Kinda obvious.

right...you have to believe in order to believe or a mormon to be a mormon
it doesn't add up to me.

the entire idea that god will not reveal himself to someone that is skeptical, makes the notion that god isn't willing to reveal himself all the more logical

 

[Breathe]

i personaly had no need to lie either i had already had a years repour and they were happy to see me show such interest... however did you go through the motions to find out what it felt like to do what they do? train yourself to think like them? its different you were observing, you were not particpating, you cant understand the level of differance. can you understand what it is like to be poor just by driving through or hanging out in improvished neighbor hoods? **** no. you need to act and behave and put your self in situations that are realistic.

There's a lot of assumptions about me, here. Considering you know nothing about me, it's kind of rude of you.


I am poor and I live in an impoverished neighbourhood with a high crime rate.

And yes, I go through the motions and I participate in things I learn about.

When I was studying Mormonism, for example, I went to prayer meetings with them. I did family home evening with them. I hung out with the missionaries on days off and had meals with them. I am good at suspending my own disbelief. When it comes to the Words of Wisdom, they didn't apply (I don't drink, smoke, and I almost never touch caffeine, preferring decaffeinated drinks like juice). The missionaries and other local Mormons said that they couldn't believe I wasn't Mormon, as I could talk the talk and understood the religion.

However, never once did I feel a need to lie. Never once did I need to go and get baptised to be more like them. When asked, I simply said "I'm not a Mormon. I'm here to learn, though."

 

[Iti oj]

There's a lot of assumptions about me, here. Considering you know nothing about me, it's kind of rude of you.
...

However, never once did I feel a need to lie. Never once did I need to go and get baptised to be more like them. When asked, I simply said "I'm not a Mormon. I'm here to learn, though."

I'm sorry i did not mean to offend. new line of questioning. what makes lieing and deceiving inherintly wrong?

 

[waitasec]

However, never once did I feel a need to lie. Never once did I need to go and get baptised to be more like them. When asked, I simply said "I'm not a Mormon. I'm here to learn, though."

that is how you learn
you cannot expect others to be able to learn in the same manner as you though


to each his own.