Undercover atheists in LDS Church

[Katzpur]

All I'd like to know from the people who found this undercover attempt to "expose" Mormonism to be acceptable is this: What did these two individuals learn about Mormonism that they would not have learned by being honest? To me, that's kind of the bottom line.

 

[waitasec]

The whole thing? No. I didn't need to. I listened to part of it, but I've been to enough LDS worship services to know what is taught in them. These two atheists couldn't tell me something I don't already know.

but that isn't the point of listening to the pod cast as a mormon.
are you not at least interested in their experience and if they were exaggerating anything about the church?

Tell me, though, if I had been to the same Relief Society Meeting you said they described and had described it to you myself, do you think I'd have described it the same way they did?

then we are to take it with a truck load of salt for both accounts.
but, the reason i pointed out the women is because the image mormons have of having many many children...and i asked apex if he knew of any couples that decided not to have children, he kindly averted the question which begs the question why?

Do you think my description would have been dishonest? To the best of your knowledge, have I been dishonest with you in the past? Have I skirted any issues you've raised?

no. dishonest not at all.

have you ever seen yourself on video? it was a strange experience for me and it took a very long time to get used to...
seeing yourself outside of yourself is definitely uncomfortable
because it's not entirely objective. for me i thought i carried myself a certain way and when i saw that i didn't i was taken back but how i see myself outside of myself isn't how people observe me...at least that is my opinion.
and i am who i am and there is nothing i can do about it.
so i say let people experience it the way it is...

tell me, would the mormon church willingly allow atheists roam around as atheists?

 

[waitasec]

How many of you have actually listened to the two episodes?

I just did. At the end, they explained the entire situation to everyone involved. The elders who instructed them aren't angry at them. They now know about the podcast. They didn't tell them to go away. They asked them to keep coming. They even agreed to a two-way conversation about their beliefs!

It's really easy to condemn the podcasters knowing very little about the situation.

so i wonder why certain mormons, who were not involved, be offended by this

 

[Katzpur]

but that isn't the point of listening to the pod cast as a mormon.
are you not at least interested in their experience and if they were exaggerating anything about the church?

No, I'm not particularly interested, because as Apex continues to point out, the issue really isn't as much about their experience as the fact that they lied to make it happen. You could ask ten Mormon women to tell you about last Sunday's Relief Society lesson, and you'd probably get ten different responses.

...the reason i pointed out the women is because the image mormons have of having many many children...and i asked apex if he knew of any couples that decided not to have children, he kindly averted the question which begs the question why?

I don't personally know of any, but then I can only think of one couple I know (non-LDS) who decided not to have children. Most people I know do eventually want children, though some may delay having them for a period of time. Most Mormons do have larger than average families, but then so do most Catholics. My husband and I decided to limit our family to two children (both grown now) and we postponed having them for nine and a half years. Didn't get excommunicated for it either.

tell me, would the mormon church willingly allow atheists roam around as atheists?

Absolutely (although there are few places of much interest in an LDS Church in which to "roam"). You may choose not to believe me, but I am telling you the truth. Try it sometime. There is a man in my congregation who was an atheist for well over 50 years before joining the LDS Church. The missionaries who taught him were well aware that he was an atheist. He was upfront with them and was welcome to attend and participate to the degree he found comfortable. This went on for quite some time before he converted.

 

[Katzpur]

so i wonder why certain mormons, who were not involved, be offended by this

They were offended by the lies. Can we really dumb it down much more than that?

 

[Panda]

All I'd like to know from the people who found this undercover attempt to "expose" Mormonism to be acceptable is this: What did these two individuals learn about Mormonism that they would not have learned by being honest? To me, that's kind of the bottom line.

Surely you will learn more by being honest and asking questions and maybe trying to get permission to turn up at a Mormon service?

 

[waitasec]

"So?" Do you like being lied to?


Because THEY WERE LIED TO.

but then they were told they were lied to by the couple and were cool with it...and invited them back.
i'm just wondering why anyone who wasn't involved care so much about it

No, it really isn't... you're projecting your own biases.

because of behavior like this...

 

[waitasec]

They were offended by the lies. Can we really dumb it down much more than that?

can you prove they were offended...?

 

[Panda]

can you prove they were offended...?

I think Katzpur told you she was offended, so yes it did offend Mormons.

 

[Storm]

but then they were told they were lied to by the couple and were cool with it...and invited them back.
i'm just wondering why anyone who wasn't involved care so much about it

I don't. I don't think anyone here does. We were asked what we thought and we answered.

because of behavior like this...

Like what?

 

[Katzpur]

Surely you will learn more by being honest and asking questions and maybe trying to get permission to turn up at a Mormon service?

You don't even have to get permission to show up. You just do it. You walk in the door and sit down. Chances are pretty great that you wouldn't even be asked for any background. We don't screen visitors to make sure they meet certain qualifications before allowing them to observe our services. If someone were to show up week after week for five or six months, someone would undoubtedly eventually ask their background, just out of curiosity, since most people wouldn't visit more than a couple of times unless they had more than just a superficial interest. If they said, "We don't even believe in God. We just want to observe your worship services. Please don't ask us to listen to the missionaries," they'd be free to come as frequently or as infrequently as they wished. They would not be asked to offer a prayer (even if they were non-LDS Christians), but they would certainly be free to participate in classroom discussions. And that's the truth. There is simply no valid reason for anyone who wants to find out about Mormonism to lie to do so.

 

[Katzpur]

can you prove they were offended...?

You're the one who said, "So i wonder why certain mormons, who were not involved, be offended by this." I answered your question, which itself presupposed that people were offended.

 

[waitasec]

No, I'm not particularly interested, because as Apex continues to point out, the issue really isn't as much about their experience as the fact that they lied to make it happen. You could ask ten Mormon women to tell you about last Sunday's Relief Society lesson, and you'd probably get ten different responses.

then you are simply being closed minded about the entire idea.

I don't personally know of any, but then I can only think of one couple I know (non-LDS) who decided not to have children. Most people I know do eventually want children, though some may delay having them for a period of time. Most Mormons do have larger than average families, but then so do most Catholics. My husband and I decided to limit our family to two children (both grown now) and we postponed having them for nine and a half years. Didn't get excommunicated for it either.

if you were i'm sure that would be a red flag...

the pink elephant is how women are treated...

Absolutely (although there are few places of much interest in an LDS Church in which to "roam"). You may choose not to believe me, but I am telling you the truth. Try it sometime. There is a man in my congregation who was an atheist for well over 50 years before joining the LDS Church. The missionaries who taught him were well aware that he was an atheist. He was upfront with them and was welcome to attend and participate to the degree he found comfortable. This went on for quite some time before he converted.

but wouldn't you agree that if one wanted to get an honest idea of how this particular church operated being undercover would be the best way, otherwise the one who's doing the investigation would assume everything is contrived.
it's like announcing to the teacher that someone will be observing them at a particular time...do you think that is the way to get an accurate reading on the teachers performance or should they just drop in unexpectedly?

 

[waitasec]

You're the one who said, "So i wonder why certain mormons, who were not involved, be offended by this." I answered your question, which itself presupposed that people were offended.

were you lied to?

 

[Storm]

were you lied to?

Do you have a point, or are you just moving the goalposts for fun?

 

[Panda]

You don't even have to get permission to show up. You just do it. You walk in the door and sit down. Chances are pretty great that you wouldn't even be asked for any background. We don't screen visitors to make sure they meet certain qualifications before allowing them to observe our services. If someone were to show up week after week for five or six months, someone would undoubtedly eventually ask their background, just out of curiosity, since most people wouldn't visit more than a couple of times unless they had more than just a superficial interest. If they said, "We don't even believe in God. We just want to observe your worship services. Please don't ask us to listen to the missionaries," they'd be free to come as frequently or as infrequently as they wished. They would not be asked to offer a prayer (even if they were non-LDS Christians), but they would certainly be free to participate in classroom discussions. And that's the truth. There is simply no valid reason for anyone who wants to find out about Mormonism to lie to do so.

Well that just makes this even more ridiculous. Though I still think it would be good form and polite to inform the priest(?) before you just turned up. This way you could also ask about protocol so as not to offend.

I think the people that do stuff like this are ridiculous and it is actions like this by these sorts of people that make other think atheists are pricks who just want to make fun of religion.

 

[waitasec]

Like what?

the arguments posted on this thread that hide behind the lying aspect of it.
when the truth of the matter isn't the lie it's the way certain mormons are afraid of being misrepresented...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They were offended by the lies. Can we really dumb it down much more than that?

I asked everyone earlier: how did they lie? What were their lies, specifically? Can anyone give an example from the podcast of anything they said to any Mormon that was an actual lie?

 

[Storm]

the arguments posted on this thread that hide behind the lying aspect of it.
when the truth of the matter isn't the lie it's the way mormons are afraid of being misrepresented...

:biglaugh: Sure, hon. Just keep telling yourself that. :biglaugh:

So, what's MY ulterior motive? How about Panda's?

 

[waitasec]

they lied about chastity and avoiding hot drinks...