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Undercover atheists in LDS Church

waitasec

Veteran Member
lets be honest here...
no one is ignorant of the fact atheists who are open about their atheism in a church setting have had their hats handed to them as soon as they start asking certain questions that "shouldn't be asked..."
i think this sneaky attempt was to get an honest POV rather then starting a conversation and risking a conflict. and we all know where that lead to all too often on this forum.
if people are offended by this then i am of the opinion they are insecure about it, not like those they lied to for this piece....who seemed to be very gracious about the entire thing.
this was the only way this couple could get a real glimpse of those in the church...
it has nothing to do with just dropping in for a sermon or 2, it has to do with how the community works... observe relationships and the human interaction not just about discussing ideas and opinions...
 

McBell

Unbound
lets be honest here...
no one is ignorant of the fact atheists who are open about their atheism in a church setting have had their hats handed to them as soon as they start asking certain questions that "shouldn't be asked..."
i think this sneaky attempt was to get an honest POV rather then starting a conversation and risking a conflict. and we all know where that lead to all too often on this forum.
if people are offended by this then i am of the opinion they are insecure about it, not like those they lied to for this piece....who seemed to be very gracious about the entire thing.
this was the only way this couple could get a real glimpse of those in the church...
it has nothing to do with just dropping in for a sermon or 2, it has to do with how the community works... observe relationships and the human interaction not just about discussing ideas and opinions...
Except that it was NOT the "only way this couple could get a real glimpse of those in the church".

So much for being honest, eh?
 

wayward_teen

Beautiful Disaster
Since I value integrity above pretty much any other quality, I find their charade pretty pathetic. Maybe they didn't actually "hurt" anybody, but it still was dishonest and disingenuous.

I agree that it's rather pathetic to join the LDS church as an atheist *just* to get an insider's look at everything, but I must say that I feel very sympathetic towards closeted Mormons who have become atheist but can't tell anybody about it.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Except that it was NOT the "only way this couple could get a real glimpse of those in the church".

So much for being honest, eh?

who cares...thats what they did...
i'm just wondering why anyone would care...

if one is to be defined by what they do then a contrived act would not be an honest act.
they never said they weren't lying about it...not to their audience.
 

McBell

Unbound
who cares...thats what they did...
i'm just wondering why anyone would care...

if one is to be defined by what they do then a contrived act would not be an honest act.
they never said they weren't lying about it...not to their audience.
So basically you are wanting to know why people who value honesty are offended by people being dishonest?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
do you honestly think if someone wanted to get to the nitty gritty of what it's like to be a member of the LDS community, they should make their presence known? really?
I think they could do what thousands of people considering joining the Church do every day. They could have observed and participated (at least minimally) for an indefinite period without having to feign sincerety. They would have found out exactly what they found out by being deceptive. At what point do you think they figured out the "nitty gritty" anyway? When do you think the LDS congregation took off their masks and let them see the truth? Obviously, you think that there's a fair amount of deception going on. What evidence do you have to support that notion?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I agree that it's rather pathetic to join the LDS church as an atheist *just* to get an insider's look at everything, but I must say that I feel very sympathetic towards closeted Mormons who have become atheist but can't tell anybody about it.
The same could be said about any Christian who has decided he no longer believes in God.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
So basically you are wanting to know why people who value honesty are offended by people being dishonest?
if the church is oblivious of the fact that they are the subject of skepticism, then they are very mistaken and living in a made up world.

think about why they lied to begin with...
isn't it because the atheists were insecure about being able to find out the dynamics of this particular community in light of past attempts?
ultimately the church did this to themselves.

instead of asking questions they were able to observe by this demeaning tactic

the op is just another ad hominem..."look at their tactics...and ignore why they reverted to them in the 1st place"


edit:
it's a funny way to value honesty don't you think?
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Okay, they didn't lie. They were just dishonest. See this post. Ulterior motives are dishonest.
Thanks. I missed that last post.

I've been thinking about something here: their approach was basically to avoid blatant lies while still spinning the truth in a way that was likely to create a misleading impression.

Not that this would excuse it, but didn't the missionaries use similar tactics? They described a few occasions where the missionaries were cagey or just wouldn't give answers to difficult questions. The impression that I got is that they were avoiding to give church doctrine & belief on certain positions when they felt it would create an unfavourable view of the church in the eyes of the people they were evangelizing to.

I've never gone through this process with Mormon missionaries, but I have read things from Mormon sources talking about the "meat" and the "milk"... the idea being that when you're dealing with a spiritual "baby" (i.e. an investigator or a new convert), you provide him with the doctrines that are easy to digest (i.e. the "milk") and avoid giving him the ones that are difficult to digest (i.e. the "meat").

I've generally taken this to be an excuse for behaviour that's similar to what's being condemned by various people here: that it's okay to withhold information about the Mormon faith from someone as long as you don't flat-out lie. Is this a fair assessment of this approach?

I've been thinking about this. Yes, they did lie. When they were interviewed prior to their baptisms, they would have had to profess a firm belief in certain fundamental doctrines of the Church. Since at no time did they ever believe in any of the things they would have had to claim to believe in order to be approved for baptism, they lied.
They go into some detail about the pre-baptism interview and their responses to the questions near the beginning of Part 2. I'll go back and listen to it to remind myself of exactly what they said about it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
They go into some detail about the pre-baptism interview and their responses to the questions near the beginning of Part 2. I'll go back and listen to it to remind myself of exactly what they said about it.

Okay - here's my best attempt at a transcript:

Carrie: So... our next step was to do our pre-baptismal interview, which is where you meet with the stake bishop, who is the head of all the wards in your area, to find out if you're prepared for your baptism.

So they asked us six major questions. There were four that we were able to be completely honest about. So the first question was "do you believe that God is our eternal father, do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the saviour and redeemer of the world?" And so I said something about how I do have faith the size of a mustard seed, which I was told was acceptable, and this is a nice thought, and I have hope that it's true, basically. That seemed to be an okay answer for them. Is that about what you said?

Ross: Yeah. I kind of laid out that ground work and said "in that context, yes, I believe this."

Carrie: Which admittedly is weaselly, but forthrightly weasally.

Ross: We've gotten to the "forthright weasel" stage.

Carrie: Question 2 - do you believe the church and gospel of Jesus Christ, restored through the prophet Joseph Smith, and do you believe that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God, and what does this mean to you? Again: mustard seed. Sure.

Ross: Yeah. I think I was able to give the kind of textbook answers they wanted to hear, and they were very happy with them... in the light of that understanding.

Carrie: Right, right. Before this all happened, we had said several times, like, "you know we don't have really strong faith at this point. Is that okay?" and they seemed totally okay with it.

Ross: Yeah. And in fact, they'd even go so far as to say, like, "if you didn't have any kind of doubt, we'd have to worry." They said that it was perfectly natural.

Carrie: Right. So great. Question 3 was "what does it mean to me to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions?" And I was like "oh, sweet. I could totally answer this honestly." I said "there are tons of things I've done wrong and I've repented of and wouldn't want to do again."

Ross: Yep. They liked that answer and we liked giving it.

Carrie: That was good. Question 4: easy peasy. "Have you ever committed a serious crime?"

Ross: No.

Carrie: High five!

Ross: Woo!

Carrie: "...if so, are you now on probation or parole?" Obviously not applicable. "Have you ever participated in an abortion or had a homosexual relationship?"

Ross: Those are easy 'no's for me.

Carrie: Right. Easy 'no's for me, too.

[snip out the extended discussion about what would've happened if the answer had been 'yes']

Carrie: So... there were two that we were dishonest about. I want to be honest about our dishonesty to our listeners. We were asked "you've been taught that membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints includes living to gospel standards. Are you willing to obey them?" And those include the law of chastity, the law of tithing, the Word of Wisdom, which means no hot drinks... come on... I'm only human.

Ross: Impossible for Carrie, maybe manageable for me.

[Note from Penguin: I've listened to a few of the back episodes now, and it's become apparent that Carrie has a thing for tea and decaf coffee. Ross doesn't drink either one, and is married]

Carrie: ... and keeping the sabbath day holy. I could probably keep the sabbath day holy.

Ross: They want you to really dedicate all of Sunday to church, to spending time with loved ones, which is nice, and not going into restaurants or doing any kind of work...

Carrie: Which I think I could probably swing, but the hot drinks... come on. And I can't afford to give anyone ten percent of my income.

Ross: The law of chastity, you just can't do that.

Carrie: And the law of chastity... come on. Well, I mean...

Ross: Oh yeah.

Carrie: Right?

Ross: I don't blame you.

Carrie: So the last question that they asked is "when you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep his commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?"

Ross: So this was a lifetime commitment.

Carrie: Right. So knowing what they meant by that, I feel like I did fib on this one. I said "yes".

Ross: Same here.

Carrie: But these are all laws that I think we both would have been willing to keep if evidence really pushed us to believe in the doctrines.

Ross: Of course.

Carrie: It's just that that wasn't happening so far.

Ross: We were open to God revealing himself, and the baptism was really supposed to make that happen.




Anyhow, I'm not sure how I feel about all this, but I wanted to get the real facts out there, because I have a feeling that a lot of the people weighing in here haven't even listened to the show.
 
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zomg

I aim to misbehave!
Dumb people. They could have just called you and saved themselves five whole months of work. I personally think people should be required to read the entire Journal of Discourses and the History of the Church before being baptized. :cool:
I totally agree!
 

McBell

Unbound
if the church is oblivious of the fact that they are the subject of skepticism, then they are very mistaken and living in a made up world.

think about why they lied to begin with...
isn't it because the atheists were insecure about being able to find out the dynamics of this particular community in light of past attempts?
ultimately the church did this to themselves.

instead of asking questions they were able to observe by this demeaning tactic

the op is just another ad hominem..."look at their tactics...and ignore why they reverted to them in the 1st place"
Huh?
Was that a "yes" or a "no".....?


edit:
it's a funny way to value honesty don't you think?
I find it interesting that you are so unable to address a point or give a direct answer to a direct question.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I've been thinking about something here: their approach was basically to avoid blatant lies while still spinning the truth in a way that was likely to create a misleading impression.

Not that this would excuse it, but didn't the missionaries use similar tactics? They described a few occasions where the missionaries were cagey or just wouldn't give answers to difficult questions. The impression that I got is that they were avoiding to give church doctrine & belief on certain positions when they felt it would create an unfavourable view of the church in the eyes of the people they were evangelizing to.
I don't think it's that simple. I'd use the meat and milk metaphor but even that is an oversimplification.

Right now there is a thread started by Yaddoe on what it takes to get to Heaven. I stated that LDS doctrine teaches of a virtual universal redemption of all mankind and that essentially all a person has to do to get to Heaven is to be born and then to die. FireOfTheCovenant, (who was once a believing member of the LDS Church, but no longer is), said that LDS doctrine teaches that only Latter-day Saints who have participated in the temple endowment ritual will go to Heaven. One of us is evidently lying. The question is: Which one? If I were to explain my answer in depth and in FireOfTheCovenant were to explain his answer in depth, after some back and forth discussion, we would probably ultimately come to the same answer.

Questions asked by prospective converts, particularly ones that they didn't just come up with on their own, but with a few hints from anti-Mormon websites, are not always easy to answer in a few brief sentences. Trying to get to the bottom of what someone is really asking can be problematic, and trying to give an answer before certain background material has been discussed can further complicate matters. Sometimes it's just best to give a simple, though incomplete answer to the question and then fill in the gaps after the person has enough knowledge on the subject to be able to understand. When a little kid asks his parent for the first time, "Where did I come from?" should the answer be, "From Mississippi" or "You grew inside of your mommy's belly," or "Well, when a mommy and a daddy love each other..."? All three answers may be correct, but which one is the child ready to understand?

Another example is, "Do Mormons believe that Jesus is God?" Yes. And no. I could argue either position quite convincingly myself. But what I need to understand before even attempting to answer is what is the real question? Is it, "Do Mormons believe in the Trinity?" or is it, "Do Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is fully divine and can be addressed as 'God'?" Once I'm sure I understand the question, I can probably give a pretty decent answer to it, but unless I were to first clarify what the person was asking, I could end up giving inaccurate information. I've had other Mormons correct me when people have asked me, "Do Mormons believe that Jesus is God?" and I've answered, "Yes." But depending on what the questioner actually meant, the answer is "yes."

Oftentimes questions are posed specifically to trip us up. We know that. It happens all the time. I know that I'm going to watch pretty carefully how I answer a question when I know the person asking the question is just trying to catch me in a trap. If the missionaries recognized that, it's entirely possible that they hedged for the simple reason that they did not want to play word games with a prospective convert. I believe they are generally pretty honest in their answers when they sense the person asking the question is sincere. We have nothing to hide, but most of us recognize disingenuous questions when we hear them and don't want to put ourselves in the position of having someone use our answers against us. I know that personally, I am a lot more inclined to put some real effort into giving a completely honest, comprehensive response to a question I sense is being posed by someone who has a genuine interest in learning about my beliefs than I am when I can sense that the questioner is just trying to manipulate me into giving him an answer he can use to make me look bad. And believe me, I'm pretty good at telling the difference.

I've generally taken this to be an excuse for behaviour that's similar to what's being condemned by various people here: that it's okay to withhold information about the Mormon faith from someone as long as you don't flat-out lie. Is this a fair assessment of this approach?
Did my previous explanation and comments answer this question?
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
Huh?
Was that a "yes" or a "no".....?
i'm sorry was that a yes or a no question?
seems to me you already made up your mind.

I find it interesting that you are so unable to address a point or give a direct answer to a direct question.
what are you talking about? that wasn't a direct question
it was a statement that ended with a question mark...
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
I started listening to the show, but after about 15 minutes, I found it as interesting as a sermon during a wedding and seemingly not very pertinent to what is being discussed in this thread.

Perhaps those who have seen whole show could provide crib notes and/or markers for when items pertinent to this thread are being discussed.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I started listening to the show, but after about 15 minutes, I found it as interesting as a sermon during a wedding and seemingly not very pertinent to what is being discussed in this thread.
This thread is about the specific actions of these two people, and the only place they discuss these actions fully and in detail is in the podcast. I don't think anything is more pertinent.

Perhaps those who have seen whole show could provide crib notes and/or markers for when items pertinent to this thread are being discussed.
So you want to be furnished with an informed opinion?

Why not cut out the middleman and just get the person doing the crib notes to post on your behalf?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Did my previous explanation and comments answer this question?
When talking in general terms, sure, but I don't think they work for some of the specific questions they talked about in the podcast. The missionaries were engaging in multiple long meetings with them, so it's not like they didn't have the time to clear up any confusion over vague questions, and seeing how they ended up asking Ross and Carrie if they'd consider baptism, I don't think that the missionaries thought that they were trying to trip them up... not once they got beyond the initial stages, anyhow.

Carrie had one question that she asked several people, just because she never got a real answer: "what about intersex people?" She would ask that seeing the emphasis that the LDS Church places on gender, how it deals with people (millions of people) who don't fit neatly into either gender, both in terms of marriage on Earth as well as the plan for salvation.

I think that question is specific enough that it doesn't create the issues of vagueness you mentioned, and while I could understand that it's an uncommon enough question that a missionary might not be prepared for it immediately, they said they were repeatedly told things like "that's a good question. I don't have an answer for you know, but I'll do some research and get one for you for our next meeting"... except no answer would ever come; every meeting, they'd just get a promise that they'd get an answer later.

Or another specific example that I just picked up on re-listening to the podcast: Carrie talked about how during one meeting when the missionaries were discussing the plan of salvation, they were talking about the different groups of people in Heaven, and how in the Celestial Heaven, the "Exalted Ones" (if I have the term correct) would be granted worlds of their own along with their wives. Carrie pointed out to the missionaries that this arrangement makes a woman's fate dependent on the actions of another, which the missionaries said, in their argument against Original Sin, is unjust. She never got a good answer to that question either.

Those are the only specific examples I could find, but they did talk about how their missionaries would dance around questions. They said that one frequent refrain they'd get from one of their missionaries was "you know, there are some questions where it's good to spend your life searching for an answer, and others where you should just 'put it on the shelf' and grab it on the way up to Heaven to ask God. I think I'm going to put that question on the shelf."

If someone responded to my honest questions that way, I think it would drive me nuts. And I think that in cases where the person is asking an honest question that has a real answer, but the answer is kept from the person because the missionary has decided that the questioner doesn't "need" to know it yet, there is an element of misleadingness going on... especially when the missionary knows that his failure to answer the question directly will probably result in a false impression.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
no one is ignorant of the fact atheists who are open about their atheism in a church setting have had their hats handed to them as soon as they start asking certain questions that "shouldn't be asked..."
I'm curious as to what questions 'shouldn't be asked' that have resulted in these atheists having their hats handed to them.

I've been to a Mormon church a few times. I asked every question that came to mind. I wasn't met with an "oooh, we don't talk about that" or anything like that - what I asked, they answered, or said "I don't know - maybe someone else knows". I'm curious what questions shouldn't be asked, considering I've always asked whatever question has come to mind. :confused:

Input? :)
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I'm curious as to what questions 'shouldn't be asked' that have resulted in these atheists having their hats handed to them.

I've been to a Mormon church a few times. I asked every question that came to mind. I wasn't met with an "oooh, we don't talk about that" or anything like that - what I asked, they answered, or said "I don't know - maybe someone else knows". I'm curious what questions shouldn't be asked, considering I've always asked whatever question has come to mind. :confused:

Input? :)

that's a good question...:)
actually i see what is going on here. the thing is these guys have an audience, we don't.
as soon as cameras and microphones are in view and questions like what 9-10ths_Penguin pointed out would be the sort of questions that cannot be answered...which is why i believe led them to go 'undercover' .

Carrie had one question that she asked several people, just because she never got a real answer: "what about intersex people?" She would ask that seeing the emphasis that the LDS Church places on gender, how it deals with people (millions of people) who don't fit neatly into either gender, both in terms of marriage on Earth as well as the plan for salvation.

I think that question is specific enough that it doesn't create the issues of vagueness you mentioned, and while I could understand that it's an uncommon enough question that a missionary might not be prepared for it immediately, they said they were repeatedly told things like "that's a good question. I don't have an answer for you know, but I'll do some research and get one for you for our next meeting"... except no answer would ever come; every meeting, they'd just get a promise that they'd get an answer later.

Or another specific example that I just picked up on re-listening to the podcast: Carrie talked about how during one meeting when the missionaries were discussing the plan of salvation, they were talking about the different groups of people in Heaven, and how in the Celestial Heaven, the "Exalted Ones" (if I have the term correct) would be granted worlds of their own along with their wives. Carrie pointed out to the missionaries that this arrangement makes a woman's fate dependent on the actions of another, which the missionaries said, in their argument against Original Sin, is unjust. She never got a good answer to that question either.


i hope that answered your question...
 
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