Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[Dan From Smithville]

What I still want to know is how I can tell which of a group of people I should choose to believe when none agree, but each claims to know the truth. If you claim that I do not know, because I am not really a member of the right club, how do I know to believe that? Can't anyone claim to have the truth?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Nonsense! The source says Josephus was a JEW and wrote JEWISH History and was not a follower of Jesus, he was however around when the early church was getting started, so he knew people who were first hand eyewitnesses who had seen and heard Jesus bearing witness to the bibical historical records. What is there to misunderstand except your denial of what is written?

So what? You do not know what is important when it comes to witnesses.

Josephus did not see Jesus. So he was not an eyewitness. There is no record that anyone he got his information from were eyewitnesses. He could have been asking other Jews. In fact that makes more sense in a way. Who would he talk to ? Members of his own religion or members of a wacky cult? Even if he knew people that saw Jesus that does not make his claims "eyewitness evidence". Please learn the qualifications for the terms that you do not understand.

By the way, why put so much stock in eyewitness evidence? Do you realize that is the least reliable evidence allowed in a court of law? You do not even have the worst evidence that is allowed legally. You are pretty much grasping at straws here.

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence

 

[3rdAngel]

So what? You do not know what is important when it comes to witnesses.

Josephus did not see Jesus. So he was not an eyewitness. There is no record that anyone he got his information from were eyewitnesses. He could have been asking other Jews. In fact that makes more sense in a way. Who would he talk to ? Members of his own religion or members of a wacky cult? Even if he knew people that saw Jesus that does not make his claims "eyewitness evidence". Please learn the qualifications for the terms that you do not understand.

By the way, why put so much stock in eyewitness evidence? Do you realize that is the least reliable evidence allowed in a court of law? You do not even have the worst evidence that is allowed legally. You are pretty much grasping at straws here.

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence

Sure I do. The verified historical records provided to you earlier are based on eyewitness accounts that prove the life of JESUS. Seems you do not believe them or agree with virtually every scholar and historian that disagrees with you. You were provided historic records of eyewitnesses accounts from three opposing sources living around in the days of JESUS that were all fighting with themselves; 1. the JEWS, 2. ROMANS and 3. THE CHRISTIANS, which scholars agree are genuine evidence that prove the existence and life of JESUS. Funny thing is that you told me earlier is that you believe that JESUS existed. What is even more funny is that you cannot tell me why you think JESUS existed and how you believe it. I believe this is because your response would only verify what I am sharing with you to be true

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Sure I do. The verified historical records based on eyewitnesses accounts prove the life of JESUS as shown earlier. Seems you do not believe them or agree with virtually every scholar and historian that disagrees with you and agrees that the historic records provided to you from the JEWS, ROMANS and CHRISTIANS are genuine evidence that prove the existence and life of JESUS.

I believe in the existence of Jesus, but outside of the Bible there is little eyewitness testimony if any.

 

[3rdAngel]

I believe in the existence of Jesus, but outside of the Bible there is little eyewitness testimony if any.

Hi Dan nice to see you. I agree with you, but that said there still is evidence outside of the bible and all scholars agree to this fact. These have been shared in a bit more detail in posts # 342 linked and post # 348 linked. I know of other JEWISH sources but have not provided them there. What make these sources more convincing IMO is that the sources are provided from three opposing sources known to be around in the days of JESUS and are verified within JEWISH, ROMAN and CHRISTIAN writings all of whom agree and have recorded different aspects of the life of JESUS. There is no bias there and they were all fighting with each other.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sure I do. The verified historical records provided to you earlier are based on eyewitness accounts that prove the life of JESUS. Seems you do not believe them or agree with virtually every scholar and historian that disagrees with you. You were provided historic records of eyewitnesses from three opposing sources living around in the days of JESUS that were all fighting with themselves; 1. the JEWS, 2. ROMANS and 3. THE CHRISTIANS, which scholars agree are genuine evidence that prove the existence and life of JESUS. Funny thing is that you told me earlier is that you believe that JESUS existed. What is even more funny is that you cannot tell me why you think JESUS existed and how you believe it

Wow, I see that you are continuing to use terms that you do not understand. How are the historical records "verified"? And please give some evidence that they are based upon eyewitness accounts. That has been your claim but you have only hand waved so far.

And no, you did not provide any "historic records of eyewitnesses from three opposing sources living around in the days of JESUS". There was no evidence given that there were any eyewitnesses at all. All you gave was a hearsay claim that Josephus knew some Christians. That is not evidence that he went to them and asked their opinions.

I also told you why I believed that Jesus existed. You ignored that. You bore false witness against your neighbor again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe in the existence of Jesus, but outside of the Bible there is little eyewitness testimony if any.

Do you think that even the Bible qualifies as "eyewitness testimony"? The closest that I can see is Paul testifying about his visions. In my book that falls far short.

 

[3rdAngel]

Wow, I see that you are continuing to use terms that you do not understand. How are the historical records "verified"? And please give some evidence that they are based upon eyewitness accounts. That has been your claim but you have only hand waved so far.

And no, you did not provide any "historic records of eyewitnesses from three opposing sources living around in the days of JESUS". There was no evidence given that there were any eyewitnesses at all. All you gave was a hearsay claim that Josephus knew some Christians. That is not evidence that he went to them and asked their opinions.

I also told you why I believed that Jesus existed. You ignored that. You bore false witness against your neighbor again.

Wow I see that your continuing to go down a path that denies nearly every scholar and historian that disagree with you. The historical records are researched and verified buy academic study. Seems you disagree with them without being able to state your case. The evidence has already been provided in posts # 342 linked and post # 348 linked which nearly every scholar agrees with. Now you say you believe in the existence of JESUS. Why do you believe JESUS existed or how do you come to that belief?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hi Dan nice to see you. I agree with you, but that said there still is evidence outside of the bible and all scholars agree to this fact. These have been shared in a bit more detail in posts # 342 linked and post # 348 linked. I know of other JEWISH sources but have not provided them there. What make these sources more convincing IMO is that the sources are provided from three opposing sources known to be around in the days of JESUS and are verified within JEWISH, ROMAN and CHRISTIAN writings all of whom agree and have recorded different aspects of the life of JESUS. There is no bias there and they were all fighting with each other.

You need to supply some evidence that "all" scholars agree to this. If you actually studied this at all you would know that that claim is not correct.

And why would Josephus not mention a popular cult at that time? It appears that you think that those that were not Christians would have the same flaws that some Christians would have.

 

[3rdAngel]

Do you think that even the Bible qualifies as "eyewitness testimony"? The closest that I can see is Paul testifying about his visions. In my book that falls far short.

Sure the bible qualifies as eye witness accounts. It is verified by JEWISH and ROMANS sources outside the the bible. The is the reason most scholars are in agreement.

 

[3rdAngel]

You need to supply some evidence that "all" scholars agree to this. If you actually studied this at all you would know that that claim is not correct.
And why would Josephus not mention a popular cult at that time? It appears that you think that those that were not Christians would have the same flaws that some Christians would have.

I have provided evidence that virtually every scholar agrees to that is enough don't you think? You will never provide evidence that every scholar agrees to

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wow I see that your continuing to go down a path that denies nearly every scholar and historian that disagree with you. The historical records are researched and verified buy academic study. Seems you disagree with them without being able to state your case. The evidence has already been provided in posts # 342 linked and post # 348 linked which nearly every scholar agrees with. Now you say you believe in the existence of JESUS. Why do you believe JESUS existed or how do you come to that belief?

Where have I done that? That is your sin here. The actual scholars disagree with your claims of "eyewitness testimony". And the "evidence" that you posted refutes your claims. Perhaps we need to go over your sources step by step since you appear to have quite a bit of difficulty understanding them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sure the bible qualifies as eye witness accounts. It is verified by JEWISH and ROMANS sources outside the the bible. The is the reason most scholars are in agreement.

No, I am sorry, but you simply do not understand what the term "eyewitness" means.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have provided evidence that virtually every scholar agrees to that is enough don't you think? You will never provide evidence that every scholar agrees to

Nope, you have not. Have you heard of Richard Carrier?

Oh wait, now you put a qualifier on your claim. You would need to define "virtually".

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Do you think that even the Bible qualifies as "eyewitness testimony"? The closest that I can see is Paul testifying about his visions. In my book that falls far short.

No. The Bible reports some things as eyewitness testimony, but the accounts are dissimilar and there is little or no external corroboration.

A person can believe in Christ and recognize the limitations in supporting information regarding His life. The argument here seems to be in a failure to acknowledge those limitations that are pointed out by nonbelievers and seen as attacks rather than facts.

 

[Deeje]

Did you actually read what I wrote? I did not mention the trinity, or "God the Son". Are you deliberately twisting my words?

That is not what your prophet wrote....did you twist his words? They were the ones I was addressing.

By immaculate conception is meant Christ was born of the Holy Spirit, not a particular doctrine of the Catholic Church. Mary was an outstanding woman of her day. It was never stated she was perfect.

FYI the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in Roman Catholicism pertains to Mary being immaculately conceived....not Jesus.

"In Roman Catholic Christian theology, the Immaculate Conception is the conception of the Virgin Mary free from original sin by virtue of the merits of her son Jesus. The Catholic Church teaches that God acted upon Mary in the first moment of her conception, keeping her "immaculate"." (WIKI)

Therefore no 'Christian' can agree with that doctrine because it is not a Biblically based belief....it is an invention used to make Mary appear to be more of an object of worship, which in turn justifies her adoration. Making Jesus into God gave her the title "Mother of God"...what an absurd belief! As if God can have a mother....

Jesus clearly appointed Peter as His successor:

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 16:16-19

That was clearly understood by the Apostles and led to Peter being considered the first leader of the Christan Church and the scriptural basis for successive leaders to follow.

No sorry...this is another failure of Christendom to understand the Greek.....the original Greek word that Jesus used when he referred to Peter was Petros, (the name Jesus gave to Peter). It is in the masculine gender and means a movable stone, a piece of rock; but petra, the rock on which the church is built, is in the feminine gender and means a “rock-mass.” If Jesus had meant for Peter to be the head of his church he would have said the obvious: “You are Petros and on this Petros I will build my church.’ But Jesus never said that! Nor did he say: “You, Peter, will build my church.” Rather, Jesus said: “I will build my church.” Who, then, is this petra, the “rock-mass,” upon which Christ builds his church? Peter understood that foundation to be Christ himself:

“Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them: ‘ . . . in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you. This is “the stone which was treated by you builders as of no account that has become chief cornerstone”.’” (1 Thessalonians 5:21; Acts 4:8-12)

So, here is a small example of how scripture has been twisted to support an unchristian viewpoint. Your prophet endorsed Catholic doctrine, not Christian teachings. Shouldn't it have been obvious to one who was supposedly guided by the spirit of Christ?

The church was relatively united within the first few centuries though of course there were those who had views that stood in complete contradiction to the spirit and substance of what Christ taught. Of course the Church struggled with unity at times and eventually schism occurred. That is simply history.

"The church" after the first century made a slow and steady decline into apostasy just as Jesus and the apostles had foretold. The "weeds" of satan's fake Christianity were not sown recently. Once the restraining influence of the apostles was no longer there, apostasy began to flood "Christianity" leading the way for Constantine to force Roman Catholicism onto all of his constituents. He fused pagan Roman sun worship with weakened Christianity creating a 'pseudo Christian' Church that catered as much to his pagan subjects as it did to the "Christians". (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
Christ's followers were warned not to do that.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18....
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

I see Baha'i doing exactly what Paul warned against. You pick and choose what scripture seems to back up your beliefs and ignore the rest.....it just doesn't work.

At the end of the day it is for God and God alone to judge us. If we start judging others and believing ourselves to be saved while others are condemned, we condemn ourselves. That is essentially what JWs do. They imagine themselves to be the one true faith. That is exactly the attitude Jesus criticises (Matthew 7:1-4, Matthew 5:22).

You do understand that it is the beliefs being judged, not the people....if we do not exercise our judgment about those beliefs, then we could get suckered into anything that sounds good, or that touches that recess in the heart that turns what God wants into what we want.

Of course JWs don’t believe in hell.

You do know what "gehenna" is I presume?
It has nothing to do with the "hell" concept that permeates almost all false worship.

 

[3rdAngel]

Where have I done that? That is your sin here. The actual scholars disagree with your claims of "eyewitness testimony". And the "evidence" that you posted refutes your claims. Perhaps we need to go over your sources step by step since you appear to have quite a bit of difficulty understanding them.

Nonsense your dishonesty here is proven already in posts # 342 linked and post # 348 linked

 

[Deeje]

So you’ve now quoting from the Jehovah Witness Bible. OK.

Yes, it the most accurate translation when we compare it to the Tanakh.

Numbers 16:5...
"He spoke to Korah and to all his company, saying, "In the morning, the Lord will make known who is His, and who is holy, and He will draw [them] near to Him, and the one He chooses, He will draw near to Him.
הוַיְדַבֵּ֨ר אֶל־קֹ֜רַח וְאֶל־כָּל־עֲדָתוֹ֘ לֵאמֹר֒ בֹּ֠קֶר וְיֹדַ֨ע יְהֹוָ֧ה אֶת־אֲשֶׁר־ל֛וֹ וְאֶת־הַקָּד֖וֹשׁ וְהִקְרִ֣יב אֵלָ֑יו וְאֵ֛ת אֲשֶׁ֥ר יִבְחַר־בּ֖וֹ יַקְרִ֥יב אֵלָֽיו:"

"The Lord" will make known who is his"....the Lord is Yahweh יְהֹוָ֧ה

Joel 2:32 (or 4:5 in the Tanakh)...
"And it shall come to pass that whoever shall call in the name of the Lord shall be delivered, for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be a deliverance, as the Lord said, and among the survivors whom the Lord invites. הוְהָיָ֗ה כֹּ֧ל אֲשֶׁר־יִקְרָ֛א בְּשֵׁ֥ם יְהֹוָ֖ה יִמָּלֵ֑ט כִּ֠י בְּהַר־צִיּ֨וֹן וּבִירֽוּשָׁלִַ֜ם תִּֽהְיֶ֣ה פְלֵיטָ֗ה כַּֽאֲשֶׁר֙ אָמַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֔ה וּבַ֨שְּׂרִידִ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֥ר יְהֹוָ֖ה קֹרֵֽא:"

"The Lord" again is Yahweh, used 3 times in this verse. "Calling on the name of the Lord" is not Jesus.
The Jews and Christendom do not use God's name in their speech, so how can they "call on the name of the Lord" when they never use it? God has a name that he gave himself....it isn't "Lord" or "Allah" or "Jesus" or any other name but "Yahweh" יְהֹוָ֖ה
Read Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanakh.
Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 3 (Parshah Shemot)

So stop judging others, simple as that.

Jesus told us that we must search for the truth, and that requires that we judge the beliefs of those who espouse belief in the God of the Bible or any other belief system. Its got nothing to do with judging people....that is Jesus' job. Christians have to know if what we believe lines up with what Jesus taught. We then decide what and who to believe based on our own research. We are then judged by Jesus on those decisions.

The lesson is we should both be very certain that our lives are on a good foundation (Matthew 7:24-27) because when the storm comes we may be swept away.

Indeed...and the storm is coming according to scripture.....ready or not. It is not man's war with man...it is God's war with satan and all who side with him. Each has their army, but God's army in this instance are not human...they are angels as Jesus clearly states. (Matthew 25:31-34; 41;46) This powerful army will dispose of all opposers of God's Kingdom, which is "coming" with no effort whatsoever from human beings. These are the reapers that Jesus spoke of in his parable of the wheat and the weeds. (Matthew 13:30; 36-43)The Kingdom will come and "crush" all worldly kingdoms out of existence. (Daniel 2:44)

What if you and your church are the ones spreading false teachings?

There is nothing in our teachings that disagrees with the Bible or Christ's teachings in any way. What harm can there be in telling the truth?...in being an honest law abiding citizen?....in being no part of the world as Jesus instructed? God's Kingdom is no part of this world.....(John 18:36)

Interesting fact time. JWs have the lowest retention rate for their children of any religious group in the USA. Only a third of children who grow up as JW choose to remain a JW.

A closer look at Jehovah's Witnesses living in the U.S.

JWs in the USA also have the poorest levels of education of any religious group.

And what does that indicate...? That satan is very influential with our youth as much as he is with any others. There is a lot of distraction for young ones in today's world that did not exist in times past. Its pay back for all of satan's children who perished in the flood. He has adopted the role of the Pied Piper. Our children are as free willed as any others. Their choice to serve God is theirs to make. God does not force anyone to worship him. Thankfully, a good many of them stay faithful to God and many that stray, return to the fold, chastened.

As far as our level of education, that is a bit of a joke really. I don't know what its like where you live, but all those kids who go to uni for years and gain their degrees, don't always find a job in the field for which they trained. Many of them are working as waiters and barristers because they are overqualified for the kind of employment that is available.

Our kids will work to support themselves in whatever jobs are available. They are actually sought after because they are honest, they aren't into alcohol or drugs, and they are reliable. We also have many who are in professions like your own...doctors, scientists, dentists, and many other professions that they trained in before learning the Bible's truth. We have many tradesmen in our ranks who are also sought after because of their high standards of work and their honesty. The other perk is that we will work holidays because we don't celebrate them. Is there a downside to this? We are not encouraged by Jesus to become rich or famous...just the opposite in fact. (1 Timothy 6:7-8)

The very action of proclaiming yourselves the one and only true Christians looks to me like the kind of people Christ Himself condemns, dare I say to hell.

You know we don't believe in hell...but do you? What kind of loving God would even think up such a place?

You’re wrong again. This Baha’i spent 5 years searching for the truth inspired by the words of Jesus when He said:

The truth shall set you free (John 8:32)

Seek and Ye shall find (Matthew 7:7-8)

So as a Baha’i whether I’m quoting from the Baha’i scriptures, the Hebrew Bible, the Quran or New Testament its all sacred writings inspired by God Himself. You see, although I am a Baha’i I am also a Christian. Whether I’m any more or less a Christian is totally for God to decide. My role is the live the life so deeds not words are my adorning.

Baha'i try to squeeze God into a mold made by men. He conveniently accepts all religions....yet that is not what the Bible says at all. You can't have a foot in all these camps because all but one is created by God's enemy to gain worship for himself from those gullible enough to fall for his tricks.
He presents himself as "an angel of light" so as not to frighten people away.....or conversely he convinces people that he doesn't exist. Same outcome.....he's gotcha.

I’ve been asking myself the serious questions about the JWs. You seem like a nice person @Deeje but I have serious concerns and reservations about the religious organisation you’re part of. You’re saving grace ironically may have been your husband who wasn’t a JW and perhaps not even a Christian.

My husband fought me on my decision to become a JW for 20 years.....he refused to meet them or to get to know them because of his own ingrained bigotry. But when our son got engaged to a lovely Witness girl, he had to attend the engagement party as the father of the groom.....and guess what? He thought they were the nicest people he had ever met. 20 years of refusing to budge on his own ideas about JW's until he was pushed. He lamented that for a long time. But he welcomed them into our home from that time onwards. Witnesses presided at his funeral because, although he was not a Christian, and he didn't want a church funeral.....nor did he want the service carried out by people who didn't even know him.

Wrong about the Baha’i Faith once again. The Baha’i Faith appears more closely aligned to the New Testament and Christ’s Teachings than the JWs.

By what stretch of whose imagination? Just from what you have posted, the Baha'i faith appears to be a mish-mash of many different beliefs thrown together by a man who claimed to be Jesus Christ returned. It tries to be all things to all people but does not remain faithful to any IMO.

You don’t even believe in life after death except for yourselves.

Who told you that? Jesus will resurrect all the dead.....including the unrighteous ones. (John 5:28-29) He calls them all from the same place...their graves.
We have no belief in an immortal soul because the Bible does not teach that we survive death in another form. It teaches resurrection...a return to this life, on this earth for the majority, in a world cleansed of all wickedness, pain, suffering and death. (Revelation 21:2-4) We will get back the paradise that Adam and Eve lost. Jesus' death guarantees it.

You’re really in no position to comment on the Baha’i Faith as anything you say or think is through the lens of the JW movement. Free yourself.

That statement is a little hypocritical don't you think? You criticize JW's with what reliable information?
All my comments about Baha'i come from what is posted by you and your members on these boards. I have also checked out your website for more information. I like to get my information first hand.....not distorted second hand reports from opposers.

 

[3rdAngel]

No, I am sorry, but you simply do not understand what the term "eyewitness" means.

Nonsense this is what the historical records are based on from Josephus and others that verify the biblical records

 

[Subduction Zone]

I refuse to debate with people that cannot understand their own sources and the call others "dishonest". Have fun.