Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[Dawnofhope]

One method has led to thousands of gods, religions, and denominations. The other gave us our only periodic table of the elements. Only one these methods generates what I would call truth, which is the quailty facts posses, facts being linguistic strings that accurately map a portion of reality. This can only be determined empirically,

Incidentally, what I mean by science here is any activity that involves observing physical reality and arriving at conclusions that predict outcomes and can be used as a means of facilitating desired outcomes and avoiding undesirable outcomes, which can involve an activity such as looking both ways before crossing to judge when is the best time to cross without being hit by a vehicle.

By faith, one just closes his eyes and crosses, obviously a poor choice when considering moving vehicles, but apparently not too dangerous when considering angels, unless, of course, you let such beliefs bleed into reality and drive recklessly, for example, based on faith in angels protecting you.

By religion I mean along the lines of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism where well established writings exist as well as a community, traditions, culture and those who are experienced practitioners and scholars.

So a tangible starting place may be to consider basic laws promoted within each tradition that will benefit the individual and community. There are obvious benefits of being truthful, not stealing and not shacking up with your neighbours wife. From that angle its just as tangible and pragmatic as science can be.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That is not what your prophet wrote....did you twist his words? They were the ones I was addressing.

For starters I quoted from Shoghi Effendi who is not a Prophet but authorised interpreter of the Baha’i writings.

Let’s repeat what was posted:

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 108-113

They are a list of fundamental principles affirmed by the Baha’i Faith in regards Christianity. They are NOT the doctrines of the Catholic Church the Baha’i Faith agrees with. Where is it mentioned that the Baha’i Faith agrees with any denomination of the Christian Church?

So when Shoghi Effendi refers to the Sonship of Jesus Christ He means the Baha’i writings affirm Jesus was the Son of God. Shoghi Effendi is not saying we agree with what the Catholic Church says about the Sonship of Christ. In fact, nowhere in the passage is the Catholic Church mentioned.

When Shoghi Effendi refers to the Divinity of Christ, that is quite different from the Trinity. So Shoghi Effendi is NOT saying the Baha’i writings affirm the Trinity, nor is there reference to a particular Catholic doctrine about the Divinity of Christ. Shoghi Effendi is simply summarising what the Baha’i writings have to say about Christ and one of the principles is the Divinity of Jesus Christ. You may not agree with that, and you seem to have had a knee jerk reaction associating this Baha’i belief with the Trinity and Catholic Church.

FYI the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in Roman Catholicism pertains to Mary being immaculately conceived....not Jesus.

"In Roman Catholic Christian theology, the Immaculate Conception is the conception of the Virgin Mary free from original sin by virtue of the merits of her son Jesus. The Catholic Church teaches that God acted upon Mary in the first moment of her conception, keeping her "immaculate"." (WIKI)

Therefore no 'Christian' can agree with that doctrine because it is not a Biblically based belief....it is an invention used to make Mary appear to be more of an object of worship, which in turn justifies her adoration. Making Jesus into God gave her the title "Mother of God"...what an absurd belief! As if God can have a mother....

Sigh! I know about the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. That is NOT what Shoghi Effendi is referring to. Consider the meaning of the two words immaculate and conception.

Immaculate = Perfect and without any mistakes

IMMACULATE | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Conception = The state of being conceived

Definition of conception | Dictionary.com

So immaculate conception is to be perfectly conceived (ie through the Holy Spirit l/God)

No sorry...this is another failure of Christendom to understand the Greek.....the original Greek word that Jesus used when he referred to Peter was Petros, (the name Jesus gave to Peter). It is in the masculine gender and means a movable stone, a piece of rock; but petra, the rock on which the church is built, is in the feminine gender and means a “rock-mass.” If Jesus had meant for Peter to be the head of his church he would have said the obvious: “You are Petros and on this Petros I will build my church.’ But Jesus never said that! Nor did he say: “You, Peter, will build my church.” Rather, Jesus said: “I will build my church.” Who, then, is this petra, the “rock-mass,” upon which Christ builds his church? Peter understood that foundation to be Christ himself:

“Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them: ‘ . . . in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you. This is “the stone which was treated by you builders as of no account that has become chief cornerstone”.’” (1 Thessalonians 5:21; Acts 4:8-12)

So, here is a small example of how scripture has been twisted to support an unchristian viewpoint. Your prophet endorsed Catholic doctrine, not Christian teachings. Shouldn't it have been obvious to one who was supposedly guided by the spirit of Christ?

Look @Deeje
When Shoghi Effendi refers to the Primacy of Peter, He is referring to what the Baha’i writings say about Peter, not what the Christian scriptures themselves say about Peter.

I’m just telling you what the Baha’i view is based on Baha’i writings. Clearly Peter has a hugely important role in Baha’i theology for Shoghi Effendi to state we fearlessly uphold Peter as being the Prince of the Apostles and to recognise his Primacy.

So you can argue all you like but you’ve completely missed the point. I’m a Baha’i and am telling you what Baha’is believe about the Apostle Peter. Clearly in regards Peter, the Baha’i Faith has more in common with the Catholics than JWs.

 

[Dawnofhope]

"The church" after the first century made a slow and steady decline into apostasy just as Jesus and the apostles had foretold. The "weeds" of satan's fake Christianity were not sown recently. Once the restraining influence of the apostles was no longer there, apostasy began to flood "Christianity" leading the way for Constantine to force Roman Catholicism onto all of his constituents. He fused pagan Roman sun worship with weakened Christianity creating a 'pseudo Christian' Church that catered as much to his pagan subjects as it did to the "Christians". (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)
Christ's followers were warned not to do that.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18....
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

I see Baha'i doing exactly what Paul warned against. You pick and choose what scripture seems to back up your beliefs and ignore the rest.....it just doesn't work.

To be clear there is no picking and choosing of Christian scriptures.

Baha’is believe in Bahá’u’lláh as Christian’s believe in Jesus. Baha’is also have the Bab whom we see as being like John the Baptist except He had a similar station to Christ. Baha’is have ‘Abdu’l-Bahá who provides authoritative interpretation and writings that are somewhat like the apostles on Christianity. Shoghi Effendi was the next leader whose interpretations are authoritative. So while Christians have the Christian Bible, Baha’is have the Baha’i writings based on the Central figures. The volume of Bahá’u’lláh’s writings alone is about 15 times the volume of the Bible. If we are unsure what was meant by the Central figures our governing body the House of Justice can resolve differences as long as they are not interpreting the writings.

The Baha’i writings affirms the Gospels along with the Torah are Divinely inspired. There’s no need to remove one verse from the Christian Bible. Obviously we have differences in interpretation to the JWs.

You do understand that it is the beliefs being judged, not the people....if we do not exercise our judgment about those beliefs, then we could get suckered into anything that sounds good, or that touches that recess in the heart that turns what God wants into what we want.

I believe the JWs are one of the most judgemental of the Christian denominations I’ve come across. As a group you tend to associate preferentially amongst yourselves. You see other faiths including all other Christian denominations as under the influence of Satan. You cast out those from your congregation those who no longer agree with you and stigmatise them.

You do know what "gehenna" is I presume?
It has nothing to do with the "hell" concept that permeates almost all false worship.

Gehenna is not part of Baha’i theology. Hell is an important theological concept in the Baha’i Faith, Islam and Christianity. Hell is simply separation from God whereas heaven is nearness to God.

 

[Samael_Khan]

How so? What is true for someone else is true for them.


Sure they can! No one has “all truth.” We each have one facet of truth. One facet is a true as the next.

No. There is what they think is true and what is actually true. This forum that we are chatting on exists. Another person might say that it is true that this website doesnt exist because they have never seen it, but what they think is true will actually be false. Therefore they were wrong.

People can have facets of truth but those facets will not contradict each other if true. If two ideas contradict each other then only one can be true. Trinitarians and Unitarians contradict each other. God is either a Trinity or he is not. Therefore one is true or one is not.

 

[sojourner]

No. There is what they think is true and what is actually true. This forum that we are chatting on exists. Another person might say that it is true that this website doesnt exist because they have never seen it, but what they think is true will actually be false. Therefore they were wrong.

People can have facets of truth but those facets will not contradict each other if true. If two ideas contradict each other then only one can be true. Trinitarians and Unitarians contradict each other. God is either a Trinity or he is not. Therefore one is true or one is not.

You’re conflating fact with truth. Factually, we don’t know what God is or is not. But we have beliefs that bring meaning to our lives, and in the end, that’s what spirituality is all about — helping us make meaning of our experiences. If the construct of the Trinity brings meaning to my life and makes more of me rather than less, then it is true for me. Not in a factual sense, but in the sense that it resonates with me. Some other belief about God, say, what a Hindu might believe, is true for her, if it resonates with her and makes more of her.
Where the spiritual life is concerned, all we have is our truth; we don’t have facts.

What you meant to say is that if two facts contradict each other, then one must be wrong. Both ideas can be true. Trinitarian and Unitarians contradict each other in the stating of their truths, but remember that those truths aren’t the same thing as facts. And those truths point to a broader truth that we haven’t (and perhaps cannot) apprehend. God is a Trinity. That’s my truth. I can’t speak to the fact of what God is or is not. Someone else may have a different truth. And I choose to honor those truths, even if they’re not my truths.

 

[shmogie]

It wasn't just said in Genesis. Leviticus even mentions it at least once. And again in Jeremiah.

Same purpose.

 

[Samael_Khan]

You’re conflating fact with truth. Factually, we don’t know what God is or is not. But we have beliefs that bring meaning to our lives, and in the end, that’s what spirituality is all about — helping us make meaning of our experiences. If the construct of the Trinity brings meaning to my life and makes more of me rather than less, then it is true for me. Not in a factual sense, but in the sense that it resonates with me. Some other belief about God, say, what a Hindu might believe, is true for her, if it resonates with her and makes more of her.
Where the spiritual life is concerned, all we have is our truth; we don’t have facts.

What you meant to say is that if two facts contradict each other, then one must be wrong. Both ideas can be true. Trinitarian and Unitarians contradict each other in the stating of their truths, but remember that those truths aren’t the same thing as facts. And those truths point to a broader truth that we haven’t (and perhaps cannot) apprehend. God is a Trinity. That’s my truth. I can’t speak to the fact of what God is or is not. Someone else may have a different truth. And I choose to honor those truths, even if they’re not my truths.

Now I get what you are saying! My disagreement with you here would be with the meaning of words and semantics but that is knitpicking. A person believes something is true and to them that belief is reality and their outlook on reality has an impact on their lives.

So I wouldnt personally express what you are saying as "both ideas are true". I would rather say "each idea is reality to those who believe them".

But even using the word reality might have its problems.

 

[sojourner]

Now I get what you are saying! My disagreement with you here would be with the meaning of words and semantics but that is knitpicking. A person believes something is true and to them that belief is reality and their outlook on reality has an impact on their lives.

So I wouldnt personally express what you are saying as "both ideas are true". I would rather say "each idea is reality to those who believe them".

But even using the word reality might have its problems.

Yes, this is closer to an understanding of what I mean.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes, this is closer to an understanding of what I mean.

So this is one of those cases where we actually have a similar idea about things but because of semantics we get into an argument.

It is very funny when that happens.

 

[sojourner]

So this is one of those cases where we actually have a similar idea about things but because of semantics we get into an argument.

It is very funny when that happens.

Because words aren’t tightly defined. When you say “God” you mean one thing. When I say “God,” I may mean another.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Here is a timeline of failed predictions:

Predictions (by date of publication) include:

• 1877: Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favor; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.[28]
• 1891: 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men."[29]
• 1904: "World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.[30]
• 1916: World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the "saints".[31]
• 1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions." Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy." The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.[32]
• 1920: Messiah's kingdom would be established in 1925 and bring worldwide peace. God would begin restoring the earth. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful patriarchs would be resurrected to perfect human life and be made princes and rulers, the visible representatives of the New Order on earth. Those who showed themselves obedient to God would never die.[33]
• 1922: The anti-typical "jubilee" that would mark God's intervention in earthly affairs would take place "probably the fall" of 1925.[34]
• 1925: God's restoration of Earth would begin "shortly after" October 1, 1925. Jerusalem would be made the world's capital. Resurrected "princes" such as Abel, Noah, Moses and John the Baptist would give instructions to their subjects around the world by radio, and airplanes would transport people to and from Jerusalem from all parts of the globe in just "a few hours".[35]
• 1938: Armageddon was too close for marriage or child bearing.[36]
• 1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon.[37]
• 1942: Armageddon was "immediately before us."[38]
• 1961: Awake! magazine stated that Armageddon "will come in the twentieth century. ... This generation will see its fulfillment."[39]
• 1966: It would be 6000 years since man's creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be "appropriate" for Christ's thousand-year reign to begin at that time.[40] Time was "running out, no question about that."[41] The "immediate future" was "certain to be filled with climactic events ... within a few years at most", the final parts of Bible prophecy relating to the "last days" would undergo fulfillment as Christ's reign began.
• 1967: The end-time period (beginning in 1914) was claimed to be so far advanced that the time remaining could "be compared, not just to the last day of a week, but rather, to the last part of that day".[42]
• 1968: No one could say "with certainty" that the battle of Armageddon would begin in 1975, but time was "running out rapidly" with "earthshaking events" soon to take place.[43] In March 1968 there was a "short period of time left", with "only about ninety months left before 6000 years of man's existence on earth is completed".[44]
• 1969: The existing world order would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end "in a few years." Young Witnesses were told not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason.[45]
• 1971: The "battle in the day of Jehovah" was described as beginning "Shortly, within our twentieth century".[46]
  [*]1974: There was just a "short time remaining before the wicked world's end" and Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to "finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service."[47]
  [*]1984: There were "many indications" that "the end" was closer than the end of the 20th century.[48]
  [*]1989: The Watchtower asserted that Christian missionary work begun in the first century would "be completed in our 20th century".[49] When the magazine was republished in bound volumes, the phrase "in our 20th century" was replaced with the less specific "in our day".
  
  Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses - Wikipedia

• Its sobering reading. So when I hear what a dark place the world is and the end will come soon, I am sceptical. You should be too. Doomsday prophecy has been going on for a long time. It appeals to people with a certain psychology. The world as we know it is about the end. We are the special ones, the last hope and refugee for humanity. Everyone else is under the influence of Satan. That narrative preys on people’s fears and anxieties about the future. But its what gives your life meaning and hope.

• 
  
  
  I grew up Christian too. I like Christians as with peoples of all faiths. Baha’is are encouraged to associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship, wholly for the sake of God, not so we can convert them.
  
  There are certainly more JWs in both Australia and New Zealand than Baha’is, not that numbers are so important. According to the last census in Australia there are approximately 82 thousand JWs and 14 thousand Baha’is. So you outnumber us about 6:1. Our numbers are growing from about 9 thousand in 1996 to 14 thousand in 2016.
  
  Worldwide the numbers are not so different between our faiths as we are well established in every culture including Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist.
  
  It appears to me the Baha’i presence on this forum is not too dissimilar to the JWs. We do not shun and cast others out. We tolerate diversity and differences. The Teachings of our faith are very clear and there are no schism amongst the Baha’is as there are in Christianity.

Just a tip:

I think you should research the JW "new light doctrine". Basically it means that they are constantly updating their interpretation of scripture, acknowledging that the previous interpretations weren't true.

Big problem though: they call their organisation "the truth".

 

[Samael_Khan]

Because words aren’t tightly defined. When you say “God” you mean one thing. When I say “God,” I may mean another.

True. Very true.

 

[Samael_Khan]

So not sure if I got this from the right place or not...

Rule 9. Subverting/Undermining the Forum Mission
The mission of Religious Forums is to provide a civil, informative, respectful, and welcoming environment where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare, and debate. Content members create while debating and discussing must be done in the spirit of productivity. Bashing other forums, creating unproductive content or responses to others, attempting to use this site as a platform for campaigning for or against or furthering a personal agenda, and attempting to undermine the forum mission may result in moderation.

I am not sure how Rule 9 supports what your saying in regards to post ratings to be honest. I only rate a post as to what I believe. I also do not rate every post that I reply to.

This rule is so subjective..... one person's "productive" might be another person's "disrespectful".

 

[Dawnofhope]

Just a tip:

I think you should research the JW "new light doctrine". Basically it means that they are constantly updating their interpretation of scripture, acknowledging that the previous interpretations weren't true.

Big problem though: they call their organisation "the truth".

Thanks @Israel Khan
The discussion with @Deeje is interesting for me personally. I hadn’t had an in depth discussion with JWs prior to coming onto this forum. The JWs want to proselytise and I’m interested in better understanding Christian scriptures who the JWs claim expertise. You’ve probably figured I’m not too impressed by this small branch of Christianity that sets itself above the rest of Christendom and repeatedly failed in all its predictions.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Thanks @Israel Khan
The discussion with @Deeje is interesting for me personally. I hadn’t had an in depth discussion with JWs prior to coming onto this forum. The JWs want proselytise and I’m interested in better understanding Christian scriptures who the JWs claim expertise. You’ve probably figured I’m not too impressed by this small branch of Christianity that sets itself above the rest of Christendom and repeatedly failed in all its predictions.

Being an ex member of the group, i do enjoy the conversation that you are having with them.

The group shows clear signs of indoctrination:

- persecution complex
- black and white viewpoints
- us vs them mentality
- creating fear in members and saying that the group is their only hope for survival. So manipulation through fear.
- shunning (resulting in people who dont actually believe staying in the group because they dont want to lose their family)
- vilifying of critics
- disapproving of independent thinking which is in fact disapproving of critical thinking
- absolute obedience to their leaders who are their only link to God on earth. Salvation is only achieved by obeying the leaders.
- relative isolation from the world making them feel special and limiting alternate views
Etc.

The above signs of indoctrination are one of the big reasons why christians view them as a cult.

The false predictions have a practical purpose. It is to keep their members on their toes, dangling a carrot in front of them so to speak, so that they always have hope in the group so that they can attain salvation through the group. Today they dont have set dates or years for when the end will come, but they do keep on reinterpreting what is meant by "this generation" because the end has to come before the generation dies. You must look that up. So there is no set date but even worse, they say that the end can happen at any time, even tomorrow, so followers must always be on their toes.

Also pay attention to their inconsistent standards. They will accuse other groups of many things that can easily apply to themselves as well. But for some reason they have double standards.

By the way i first encountered Baha'i on this forum too. I have a passion for studying religions so I enjoy the interaction. Trailblazer and I usually have pretty deep conversations.

 

[Deeje]

It is an interesting question as to what version of the Bible we use and why. I tend to use the King James Version or the New International Version. I personally don’t trust the New World Translation and am aware its not well regarded amongst Christians. Then again the JWs are not well regarded by your fellow Christians. So I will be avoiding using the NWT and would prefer you used another translation in our discussions. Up to you, but if you do use NWT I’ll simply use KJV instead unless there’s a good reason not to.

I studied the KJV when I was first contacted by the Witnesses. It was given to me by my grandmother and it was the only Bible I was comfortable with. It’s not until you study the Bible and have access to interlinear translations that you understand how much bias there is in many translations. JW’s used the ASV for many years because of the inclusion of Jehovah’s name throughout. But the time came for us to produce our own well researched translation of the Bible so that all the verses that had been mistranslated were correctly rendered according to original language meanings. The KJV also uses archaic English that is no longer in use. That confuses a lot of people as well.

I can give you examples of their misinterpretations. So, when I quote from the NWT, I will quote from the KJV also for comparison. OK?

If you can think of any examples that you’d like to discuss, I am happy to do so.

Here is the deal. Christians already know that what you teach doesn’t line up at all. So while you can quote scriptures with multiple references to this verse and that, most Christians are clear the JWs don’t represent Christianity. So while you present yourself as ‘true’ Christianity most Christians who have studied the JWs have little hesitation in rejecting your claims. In that respect I am in agreement with your fellow Christians. That is of course my personal view based on research and study of the Bible and interacting with Christians. I don’t say that to offend. Its just what I’ve concluded.

If we agreed with Christendom’s teachings, that would be proof positive that we were part of the “weeds” of Jesus' parable; he said that at the harvest time, it would be clear which was which because they would NOT resemble one another at all. The fake wheat that Middle Eastern farmers were familiar with, was very similar to genuine wheat in the growing period, but at the harvest time, the two were clearly distinguishable. The heads of the grain were very different in the way they presented. Hence Jesus’ instruction to the reapers was to pull out the 'weeds' first and dispose of them, before harvesting the 'wheat'. There is so much more to Jesus’ parables than a cursory reading reveals.

We do not view Christendom as our “fellow Christians” because the apostasy that Jesus and his apostles warned about, spawned that disunited and totally inept excuse for Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church is the mother of all the rest because they all subscribe to her unscriptural doctrines. The core of Christendom’s teachings came from Catholicism, not Christianity. By your responses, you indicate that Baha'i can’t discern the difference.

When Daniel foretold that “the time of the end” would see a “cleansing, whitening and refining” of a people guided by God’s spirit occur, it becomes obvious that at this time, there was a great need for that cleansing. (Daniel 12:9-10) God would not grant 'understanding' to the “wicked”. (that is God’s definition of “wicked”...disobedient, not open to change their mindset, sticking to what they want to believe...like the Pharisees.)

Why would you need to cleanse something that is not filthy...or whiten something that is not stained, or to refine it, if no impurities were present? These processes did not happen overnight but have been slowly taking place over these last days. Revelation of truth has always been progressive. We have had a lot of clarification over the decades. (Proverbs 4:18)

Specifically, how JWs view the future based on Prophecy is one of the biggest points of disagreement you will have with your fellow Christians as well as Baha’is.

We note the similarity in Noah’s day that Jesus used to make a comparison....no one believed Noah either....so what was the survival rate in that instance? How many arks were there?
Why did Jesus use it to indicate the time of his return. (Matthew 24:37-39) What is the lesson?

Obviously I disagree. I’m not quite ready to make a list of the core differences between the JWs and more mainstream Christianity which is closer to what I believe in.

It’s a big list. I have studied every one of them because these were the teachings I grew up with. I am not easily convinced, as you may have noticed....I need an overview formulated by examining all the details that contribute to it. All the pieces have to fit. Christendom has no clue because they stick to their errors and God allows them to. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) He will offer his truth on a 'take it or leave it' basis, but if people want to choose to believe a delusion, he won't correct them. Free will allows us to determine our own future.

First I don’t believe in Satan. It is remarkable that you are retaining only one third of your children and the rates are significantly lower than practically every other faith.

These stats make me smile....who compiled them and with what data....? Seriously.

The reason is simply the JWs are more out of touch with reality and modernity than every other religion or denomination of Christianity. Whether its science, logic, social reality, the JWs are unconvincing not only to others but to your children too.

“Reality and modernity”? Are these things of concern to God?....or just to those who want God to 'get with their program'? I can tell you now that he remains unchanged since human creation. It is we who must adjust to his values and laws; we don’t get to dictate our terms to him. He is not “all inclusive" and never has been since humans first transgressed his commands. God's people were forbidden to mix with the people of the nations because of the influence to adopt false worship. Every time they did, God punished them.

I don’t think its a joke at all. The JWs fare far worse than any other religious group in regards income levels.

Again I have to smile.....what do income levels mean to a Christian? Did Jesus promotes worldly materialism or a striving after money? (Matthew 6:24)

1 John 2:15-17....
"Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever." (NWT)

KJV...
"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

NIV...
"Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever."

Mounce Interlinear... https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+john+2:15-17&version=MOUNCE

 

[Deeje]

So the idea that JW are making the best decisions in avoiding education because they won’t get jobs is not true. Your church actively discourages higher education in part because of fears about being exposed to the supposed immorality of campus environments. I would also propose if you believe the world will end soon there’s another major disincentive.

There are several reasons why we don't pursue higher education....We don't need that kind of education to get a job.....and we are told that food and clothing are enough to get by on. We could live in a tent and still serve God.

Wise words from the apostle Paul....
1 Timothy 6:7-10.....
"For we have brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out. 8 So, having food and clothing, we will be content with these things.
9 But those who are determined to be rich fall into temptation and a snare and many senseless and harmful desires that plunge men into destruction and ruin. 10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains."

KJV...
"For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

The love of money is a trap that many fall into. There are way more important things than money.

Whenever you start talking about the Baha’i Faith you seem at a complete loss. You sound as if you are spouting the JW party line about other religions.

Since you spout the Baha'i party line, isn't that a little hypocritical? Where did all that stuff about JW's come from? Did you get it from the horse's mouth? What I have learned about Baha'i has come from the posters on these boards. I had never heard of Baha'i till I came here, so we have no party line. We have the Bible's description of Christianity and when it comes to obedience to Christ's teachings, I never witnessed them being carried out in my church growing up....and time has not altered that. They are up to their eyeballs in politics and support for the military. I saw an American clergyman just the other day telling people that they had to vote so that the bad guys don't end up running his country....too late I fear. Christ's command is that we be "no part of this world" because God's Kingdom has nothing to do with it. (John 18:36) We are not to imitate its desires or lifestyles.

You need to learn to think for yourself. Ironically you are calling me gullible.

That was a 'cap fits' scenario.....it includes you if you see yourself there. "Gullible" means being easily convinced about something. If you think that your prophet is on a par with Jesus Christ, then I'm sorry but that is just nonsense to me. Jesus proved himself by the power of God's spirit.....how did Bahá'u'lláh prove that he was a prophet? The Bible does not say to expect anyone after Jesus Christ....and his return was going to change forever the way life on earth is lived and governed. (Revelation 21:2-4; Daniel 2:44)

Its interesting that you became a JW when married. Baha’i Teachings emphasise associating with all people of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship. So Baha’is wouldn’t shun JWs. I agree your husband was wrong not to associate with people from your church. I can understand if he didn’t have any religion how that could be difficult for him. Is your son still married and a JW?

JW's don't shun anyone for not being a JW. We have many in our ranks with unbelieving mates.....usually because one or the other spouse begins their spiritual journey after they were married, as I did.....none of them are treated as lepers I assure you. We have neighbors and workmates and school friends of all faiths and we are as helpful and friendly to them as we are to anyone else. Jesus parable of the "Good Samaritan" tells us what a good neighbor is.
The difference is that we do not keep close company with those who do not worship Jehovah or who have little regard for his laws...
1 Corinthians 15:33...
"Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits." (NWT)

KJV...
"Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners."

NIV...
"Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character."

(see also Proverbs 13:20) Jesus didn't hang with sinners because he liked their company....he associated with them to teach them how to break free of their sinful ways and to please God by being of good moral character.
Any foreigner who wanted to serve Israel's God, had to become part of his nation. That meant leaving their former religion and lifestyle behind....and adopting Israel's worship and abiding by their laws.

There are diverse views about the afterlife within Christianity and about the nature of heaven and hell. Many Christians do believe in an immortal soul, Eternal life or punishment, heaven and hell.

Does this link provide a fair and reasonable commentary about JW views in regards life after death?

Jehovah's Witnesses and salvation - Wikipedia

Its a fair assessment. We don't believe in any of those things because they are not found in the Bible.
Heaven or hell is not a Bible scenario. Its a pagan idea. "Life or death" is what God's people were offered.

The Jews did not believe that the soul was immortal or that there was any life after death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10; Ezekiel 18:4)

Eternal punishment is simply eternal death. Why would God want to torture people forever? To do that he would have to give them everlasting life.....but that is promised only to the righteous.

 

[rational experiences]

There are several reasons why we don't pursue higher education....We don't need that kind of education to get a job.....and we are told that food and clothing are enough to get by on. We could live in a tent and still serve God.

Wise words from the apostle Paul....
1 Timothy 6:7-10.....
"For we have brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out. 8 So, having food and clothing, we will be content with these things.
9 But those who are determined to be rich fall into temptation and a snare+ and many senseless and harmful desires that plunge men into destruction and ruin. 10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of injurious things, and by reaching out for this love some have been led astray from the faith and have stabbed themselves all over with many pains."

KJV...
"For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

The love of money is a trap that many fall into. There are way more important things than money.



Since you spout the Baha'i party line, isn't that a little hypocritical? Where did all that stuff about JW's come from? Did you get it from the horse's mouth? What I have learned about Baha'i has come from the posters on these boards. I had never heard of Baha'i till I came here, so we have no party line. We have the Bible's description of Christianity and when it comes to obedience to Christ's teachings, I never witnessed them being carried out in my church growing up....and time has not altered that. They are up to their eyeballs in politics and support for the military. I saw an American clergyman just the other day telling people that they had to vote so that the bad guys don't end up running his country....too late I fear. Christ's command is that we be "no part of this world" because God's Kingdom has nothing to do with it. (John 18:36) We are not to imitate its desires or lifestyles.



That was a 'cap fits' scenario.....it includes you if you see yourself there. "Gullible" means being easily convinced about something. If you think that your prophet is on a par with Jesus Christ, then I'm sorry but that is just nonsense to me. Jesus proved himself by the power of God's spirit.....how did Bahá'u'lláh prove that he was a prophet? The Bible does not say to expect anyone after Jesus Christ....and his return was going to change forever the way life on earth is lived and governed. (Revelation 21:2-4; Daniel 2:44)



JW's don't shun anyone for not being a JW. We have many in our ranks with unbelieving mates.....usually because one or the other spouse begins their spiritual journey after they were married, as I did.....none of them are treated as lepers I assure you. We have neighbors and workmates and school friends of all faiths and we are as helpful and friendly to them as we are to anyone else. Jesus parable of the "Good Samaritan" tells us what a good neighbor is.
The difference is that we do not keep close company with those who do not worship Jehovah or who have little regard for his laws...
1 Corinthians 15:33...
"Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits." (NWT)

KJV...
"Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners."

NIV...
"Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character."

(see also Proverbs 13:20) Jesus didn't hang with sinners because he liked their company....he associated with them to teach them how to break free of their sinful ways and to please God by being of good moral character.
Any foreigner who wanted to serve Israel's God, had to become part of his nation. That meant leaving their former religion and lifestyle behind....and adopting Israel's worship and abiding by their laws.



Its a fair assessment. We don't believe in any of those things because they are not found in the Bible.
Heaven or hell is not a Bible scenario. Its a pagan idea. "Life or death" is what God's people were offered.

The Jews did not believe that the soul was immortal or that there was any life after death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10; Ezekiel 18:4)

Eternal punishment is simply eternal death. Why would God want to torture people forever? To do that he would have to give them everlasting life.....but that is promised only to the righteous.

Who is righteous?

Science is not righteous, so a scientist claiming I will change God O the Earth as his stone philosophy for science.

Science is taking the mass for machine building out of the planet body.

He is not inventing anywhere other than on Planet Earth yet espouses cosmological lying statements...which is why he is told he is not righteous inheritor...as science.

For the bible was a story told and taught against occult practice....Satanism or science of the nuclear occult/UFO MASS.

Human life, natural is righteous in its natural self presence as a human spiritually living on Earth, as the story tells that advice.

It never belonged to science, what the teaching was relative to...science being evil and a liar, who tried to take the natural existence and interact it with his machine.

Stephen Hawking, close to a human death as conscious science realization already told all the themes of his scientific realizations and was not lying...for it is only male choice, science that tells lies about owning the same environmental natural conditions for a machine that a bio life lives with and because of.

What the relative idealised teaching was about.

 

[Deeje]

Who is righteous?

Science is not righteous, so a scientist claiming I will change God O the Earth as his stone philosophy for science.

Science is taking the mass for machine building out of the planet body.

He is not inventing anywhere other than on Planet Earth yet espouses cosmological lying statements...which is why he is told he is not righteous inheritor...as science.

For the bible was a story told and taught against occult practice....Satanism or science of the nuclear occult/UFO MASS.

Human life, natural is righteous in its natural self presence as a human spiritually living on Earth, as the story tells that advice.

It never belonged to science, what the teaching was relative to...science being evil and a liar, who tried to take the natural existence and interact it with his machine.

Stephen Hawking, close to a human death as conscious science realization already told all the themes of his scientific realizations and was not lying...for it is only male choice, science that tells lies about owning the same environmental natural conditions for a machine that a bio life lives with and because of.

What the relative idealised teaching was about.

I do so wish I could reply to you...... the words I am reading are English, but they make no coherent sense to me....sort of like you are speaking a foreign language.....is there a way for you to speak in more simple terms perhaps?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Being an ex member of the group, i do enjoy the conversation that you are having with them.

The group shows clear signs of indoctrination:

- persecution complex
- black and white viewpoints
- us vs them mentality
- creating fear in members and saying that the group is their only hope for survival. So manipulation through fear.
- shunning (resulting in people who dont actually believe staying in the group because they dont want to lose their family)
- vilifying of critics
- disapproving of independent thinking which is in fact disapproving of critical thinking
- absolute obedience to their leaders who are their only link to God on earth. Salvation is only achieved by obeying the leaders.
- relative isolation from the world making them feel special and limiting alternate views
Etc.

The above signs of indoctrination are one of the big reasons why christians view them as a cult.

The false predictions have a practical purpose. It is to keep their members on their toes, dangling a carrot in front of them so to speak, so that they always have hope in the group so that they can attain salvation through the group. Today they dont have set dates or years for when the end will come, but they do keep on reinterpreting what is meant by "this generation" because the end has to come before the generation dies. You must look that up. So there is no set date but even worse, they say that the end can happen at any time, even tomorrow, so followers must always be on their toes.

Also pay attention to their inconsistent standards. They will accuse other groups of many things that can easily apply to themselves as well. But for some reason they have double standards.

By the way i first encountered Baha'i on this forum too. I have a passion for studying religions so I enjoy the interaction. Trailblazer and I usually have pretty deep conversations.

We seem to have quite a few ex-JWs hovering around. I'm not suprised at all. JWs and ex-JWs do talk quite a lot to the Baha'is. I suspect a ying-yang relationship between opposites.

I grew up Christian and identified as being a Christian before become a Baha'i nearly 30 years ago. If I hadn't become a Baha'i I probably would have persisted with the Baptist Church though would have been an outlier. I explored Hinduism and Buddhism prior to becoming a Baha'i and found an undeniable light in these two faiths that seemed to parallel Christianity. Its therefore no coincidence I choose a religion that sees Buddha and Krishna as being Manifestations of God along with Christ and Muhammad. I have never been attracted to the JWs as it seems to be the antithesis of my core universalist beliefs.

I'd be interested to hear your journey including what led you to the JWs. Why did you have the good sense to leave? Everytime I talk to @Deeje another ex-JW comes out of the woodwork to their tell their story. I believe its really important to have your voice here. I firmly believe that no religion is better than the wrong religion.