One should exercise great care in choosing a religion by critically evaluating its beliefs before making a decision to join. They should always have the capacity and freedom to examine their beliefs when they are part of a movement and be prepared to leave if necessary should it not add up. It may emerge one’s new found faith just isn’t a particularly good fit. One huge difficulty with the JW movement is the policy of disfellowshipping and how that can tear families apart. It could result in severe psychological problems for members of such a family including suicide. So I believe its excellent you left.
Apart from disfellowshipping, their most damaging policy is the 2 witness rule when it comes to proving a sin has been committed. It is applied to potential child sexual abuse situations yet is obviously incapable of determining the truth of the situation because nobody abuses a child in the presence of another person who isnt also involved. So they will keep child abusers in the congregation unless the abuser is confesses him or herself.
New religious movement - Wikipedia
New religious movement is a better word to describe some of many faiths that have emerged since the nineteenth century. That term would apply to the Jehovah Witness, Church of the Latter Day Saints, Baha’is and Ahmadiyya Muslims. The world cult has been used as a broad brush to apply to any religion outside Christian orthodoxy. Critics of the term equate it to the equivalent of racial slurs.
The one occasions I have been accused of being a cult member was by a fellow GP, a married Christian who was disciplined for having a sexual relationship with a patient. I do volunteer work at a Christian Medical Centre and staying closely affiliated with Conservative Christians is important to me.
New religious movements wouldnt be the best word to use, because that describes whether a group is a part of that movement, not whether it is a dangerous cult or not. For instance, Baha"i and Seventh Day Adventists are not cults with the way they are socially and psychologically structured. I have no idea about the Ahmaddiyya. Some say the Mormons are but I havent looked into that. The JW's would be called a cult.
But I agree that the term cult is inadequate to describe what we mean in the same way scientists use the word theory. It has too much baggage added to it and has a different popular meaning. Also the term cult is used for indoctrination purposes, as it is a trigger word which stops thoughts and instills fear, and prevents people from critically analysing the beliefs to see whether they are true. As long as a small group disagrees with them a large group will call them a cult. It serves the same purpose as the term heresy. Which is why I am moving more towards saying that a group uses indoctrination methods accompanied by stating my reasoning. To prevent indoctrination one must promote critical thinking.
I suspect the number is figurative.
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelation 7:4
"Israel" means literally "he that strives or wrestles with God." In the context of this and the next four verses, Israel is a symbol, a
microcosm of humanity. Israel's history of spiritual struggle is representative of all mankind.
After the 12 tribes of Israel are recited mentioned this understanding is affirmed by the verse:
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:9
It will be revealed in verse Revelation 21:12 that the gates of the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, are correlated with the Twelve Tribes of
Israel.
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
So we have all the nations, kindreds, and peoples entering the different gates of the Holy City or New Jerusalem. In Baha'i theology the New Jerusalem symbolises the New Revelation from God which is likened to a city. So the study of the Torah and associated books is like a city of God. Same deal with the Gospels and subsequence Revelations from God.
Clearly, the New Jerusalem which descends from heaven is not a city of stone and lime, of brick and mortar, but is rather the religion of God which descends from heaven and is described as new. For it is obvious that the Jerusalem which is built of stone and mortar does not descend from heaven and is not renewed, but that what is renewed is the religion of God. –
Abdu’l-Baha,
Some Answered Questions
That's my take on the 144,000 but I'm sure there are many other meanings too and interpretations that are just as valid.
I agree that the 144 000 are figurative. The number 12 represents completion as well as Gods people, as representing the 12 tribes. 1000 means a great number. The multiplication of the tribes is 12000 X 12 = 144 000 which probably means the whole host of God's people. But I don't think we will fully understand the meaning of the number until we figure out why the tribes have been changed.
This makes sense to me now because it makes a direct link to the great multitude in the next verse, because 144000 symbolises a great multitude. There is an objection to this though, which separates the 144000 from the great multitude but I cant remember what it is.
I don't see how the last Baha'i interpretation is possible from the narrative though, as the narrative states that the beast and its armies are defeated and Satan is bound for 1000 years, while Christ and his brothers (Romans 8) reign on earth and the dead get gradually resurrected until the 1000 years are ended. Then Satan gets released, tries to lead a rebellion and gets destroyed and death itself is destroyed as well. And then there is world peace in which New Jerusalem descends from heaven onto earth. So it is about the end of sinful world influenced by Satan and the beginning of a New Age. The Bible does support the idea that it is possible for the spiritual to become material so it makes sense. Plus the idea that the resurrection is physical adds to that understanding.
Have you heard of the Sana'a and Birmingham manuscripts?
I completely forgot about those actually. It would actually make sense to me. Western Revisionists actually appeal to them as evidence for their case because of textual analysis. But these are Christian apologists who use them to say the muslims are hypocrites for saying that the Quran isn't changed but the Bible is. So if muslims accept the textual variants then the apologists would be happy just with that.
I see you are from South Africa. Is that right? congratulations on winning the world cup despite being beaten by the All Blacks in your opening game.
I am yes. And thanks. Although I do not watch rugby. But I do think the All Blacks are awesome and are the best team around. They are just intimidating and they have great showmanship. There were some people who wanted the Haka banned but I think doing that would be to the detriment of Rugby culture. My family supports the All Blacks by the way. They hate the Springboks because they view them as representative of the oppression of our past. They also don't like the Springbok's attitude. But I have no gripe with them.
Shintoism and the religions of the maori peoples would be good for your studies.
They definitely would. I can't wait to get to them.
I had a JW in my GP training group. When we had a day meeting with local indegeous peoples and we needed to observe their customs, my JW colleague and I were are different ends of a spectrum. I ended up providing the prayer and speech on behalf the GP registrar group as we were welcomed by the Maori. My JW colleague distinguished himself as being the only one from our group that didn't attend the day because as a JW he was not comfortable with the Maori cultural practices.
I understand his viewpoint if placing myself in Christian shoes depending on how the customs are viewed by the people. They would see it as disrespecting God if they enjoy pagan practices. But that is a complicated issue that I haven't thought of in a while. It could even fall under mixed worship which God punished Israel for depending on what happens. I didnt participate in many events as well because of my faith. It actually caused a gradual rift between me and others. That stance serves to further separate JW's from others and identify more with their own tribe.
So here's another couple of questions. Do you think the beast in Revelation 12:3
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Is the same as the one in Daniel 7:19-21?
Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
We know the identity of the first three beasts. What of the fourth?
I wouldn't agree that they are the same.
The dragon and the many beasts represent different things.
The dragon in Revelation 12 is explicitly stated as Satan in verse 9. He is regarded as the serpent of old which is a reference to the serpent in Genesis who deceived Eve, and I would think that he now has grown into a dragon as he is so powerful that he deceives the whole world.
Beasts as you mentioned are specifically referred to as representing nations in Daniel. Therefore we know the first three beasts.
So:
Dragon = Satan
Beasts = Nations
Since Satan controls the world and the nations are the world, I interpret the symbolism as the dragon controlling the beasts.
It could be that Revelation 12 is referring to the early church being persecuted by Satan. Verse 13 to 17 seems very similar to what happened to the church in acts and the centuries afterwards under Roman rule. It is a common idea that the fourth beast is Rome. It is also said to make war with the saints. So even though the dragon and the beast are not the same entities, both events seem to refer to the same persecution. So the dragon is persecuting Gods people by using the fourth beast in my view.
That is my basic take on it though. I could go much deeper but then I might take a week to get back to you.
