Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[rational experiences]

I do so wish I could reply to you...... the words I am reading are English, but they make no coherent sense to me....sort of like you are speaking a foreign language.....is there a way for you to speak in more simple terms perhaps?

The bible was heard. Little children in the Fatima incident irradiation attack prove that reality. Seeing a vision of a female Mother is because the atmospheric body was attacking natural life. As we are all formed from the cell ovary of a human being female....in sex.

The bible does not discuss human sex and life continuance it is discussing science, machine causation.

Science was told in AI that it is not the righteous inheritor of what the bio conscious natural life lived and owned....for we are not a machine.

How is that not difficult to understand....a machine is not our life history...yet science included our bio Genesis with science information. Which proved that science tried to destroy our bio Genesis...what the biblical theme taught.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I studied the KJV when I was first contacted by the Witnesses. It was given to me by my grandmother and it was the only Bible I was comfortable with. It’s not until you study the Bible and have access to interlinear translations that you understand how much bias there is in many translations. JW’s used the ASV for many years because of the inclusion of Jehovah’s name throughout. But the time came for us to produce our own well researched translation of the Bible so that all the verses that had been mistranslated were correctly rendered according to original language meanings. The KJV also uses archaic English that is no longer in use. That confuses a lot and of people as well.

I can give you examples of their misinterpretations. So, when I quote from the NWT, I will quote from the KJV also for comparison. OK?

If you can think of any examples that you’d like to discuss, I am happy to do so.

If you want to discuss the Bible with me, using the KJV is the best place to start. If you feel compelled to use quotes from your NWT then also include the KJV please. Are you OK with that? The KJV is well regarded amongst most Christians and Baha’is. The NWT isn’t. I have no issues at all with the older style of English in the KJV. I see no point in referring to God as Jehovah but if you want to, go ahead.

If we agreed with Christendom’s teachings, that would be proof positive that we were part of the “weeds” of Jesus' parable; he said that at the harvest time, it would be clear which was which because they would NOT resemble one another at all. The fake wheat that Middle Eastern farmers were familiar with, was very similar to genuine wheat in the growing period, but at the harvest time, the two were clearly distinguishable. The heads of the grain were very different in the way they presented. Hence Jesus’ instruction to the reapers was to pull out the 'weeds' first and dispose of them, before harvesting the 'wheat'. There is so much more to Jesus’ parables than a cursory reading reveals.

We are agreed there are true and false teachings mixed together and the parable of the tares and the wheat is a good fit for where Christendom finds itself. We are not agreed as to what Teachings constitute the Wheat and which ones are the tares. A preliminary discussion about core teachings from a Baha’i perspective makes clear the Baha’is and JWs have major differences. That isn’t a surprise to either of us. That doesn’t bother me in the slightest and I have no interest or inclination towards persuading you to change your beliefs. I’m just making it clear how Baha’is view Christ and the New Testament.

We do not view Christendom as our “fellow Christians” because the apostasy that Jesus and his apostles warned about, spawned that disunited and totally inept excuse for Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church is the mother of all the rest because they all subscribe to her unscriptural doctrines. The core of Christendom’s teachings came from Catholicism, not Christianity. By your responses, you indicate that Baha'i can’t discern the difference.

Obviously those words alone create a great divide between the JWs and the rest of Christendom.

When Daniel foretold that “the time of the end” would see a “cleansing, whitening and refining” of a people guided by God’s spirit would occur, it becomes obvious that at this time, there was a great need for that cleansing. (Daniel 12:9-10) God would not grant 'understanding' to the “wicked”. (that is God’s definition of “wicked”...disobedient, not open to change their mindset, sticking to what they want to believe...like the Pharisees.)

Why would you need to cleanse something that is not filthy...or whiten something that is not stained, or to refine it, if no impurities were present? These processes did not happen overnight but have been slowly taking place over these last days. Revelation of truth has always been progressive. We have had a lot of clarification over the decades. (Proverbs 4:18)

Sure. You see the JWs as a pure, refined and cleansed form of Christianity and the rest of Christendom as filthy and corrupt.

We note the similarity in Noah’s day that Jesus used to make a comparison....no one believed Noah either....so what was the survival rate in that instance? How many arks were there?
Why did Jesus use it to indicate the time of his return. (Matthew 24:37-39) What is the lesson?

You see the JWs as being like Noah warning of a coming apocalypse.

It’s a big list. I have studied every one of them because these were the teachings I grew up with. I am not easily convinced, as you may have noticed....I need an overview formulated by examining all the details that contribute to it. All the pieces have to fit. Christendom has no clue because they stick to their errors and God allows them to. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) He will offer his truth on a 'take it or leave it' basis, but if people want to choose to believe a delusion, he won't correct them. Free will allows us to determine our own future.

I have little doubt about the long list of differences between Christians and JWs.

These stats make me smile....who compiled them and with what data....? Seriously.

Pew Research are a reliable and well respected organisation with low bias ratings.

Pew Research - Media Bias/Fact Check

 

[Dawnofhope]

“Reality and modernity”? Are these things of concern to God?....or just to those who want God to 'get with their program'? I can tell you now that he remains unchanged since human creation. It is we who must adjust to his values and laws; we don’t get to dictate our terms to him. He is not “all inclusive" and never has been since humans first transgressed his commands. God's people were forbidden to mix with the people of the nations because of the influence to adopt false worship. Every time they did, God punished them.

I believe God is concerned with modernity, in particular

1/ Governments and organisations should be fair and compassionate.

2/ The equality of men and women.

3/ The removal of prejudice and discrimination

4/ The Abolition of slavery

5/ The harmony of science and religion

6/ Cooperation between all nations and peoples

I accept you see it differently and these principles are of little importance to the JWs.

Again I have to smile.....what do income levels mean to a Christian? Did Jesus promotes worldly materialism or a striving after money? (Matthew 6:24)

There are several reasons why we don't pursue higher education....We don't need that kind of education to get a job.....and we are told that food and clothing are enough to get by on. We could live in a tent and still serve God.

It is clear the JWs place less value on education and being able to contribute in diverse ways to an ever advancing civilisation.

Since you spout the Baha'i party line, isn't that a little hypocritical? Where did all that stuff about JW's come from? Did you get it from the horse's mouth? What I have learned about Baha'i has come from the posters on these boards. I had never heard of Baha'i till I came here, so we have no party line. We have the Bible's description of Christianity and when it comes to obedience to Christ's teachings, I never witnessed them being carried out in my church growing up....and time has not altered that. They are up to their eyeballs in politics and support for the military. I saw an American clergyman just the other day telling people that they had to vote so that the bad guys don't end up running his country....too late I fear. Christ's command is that we be "no part of this world" because God's Kingdom has nothing to do with it. (John 18:36) We are not to imitate its desires or lifestyles.

There is nothing in the Baha’i writings to my knowledge that refers to the JWs. Baha’is are encouraged to independently investigate the truth for themselves and that’s exactly what I’ve been doing.

Baha’is are certainly mentioned on the JW website.

Do All Worship the Same God? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

I’m just saying your knowledge of the Baha’i Faith appears minimal and you frequently make incorrect statements about my religion that at times I feel compelled to correct.

As already mentioned Baha’is eschew partisan politics.

That was a 'cap fits' scenario.....it includes you if you see yourself there. "Gullible" means being easily convinced about something. If you think that your prophet is on a par with Jesus Christ, then I'm sorry but that is just nonsense to me. Jesus proved himself by the power of God's spirit.....how did Bahá'u'lláh prove that he was a prophet? The Bible does not say to expect anyone after Jesus Christ....and his return was going to change forever the way life on earth is lived and governed. (Revelation 21:2-4; Daniel 2:44)

As previously mentioned I thoroughly investigated the truth of religion including the Baha’i Faith for a period of 5 years before becoming a Baha’i. I’ve been a Baha’i for nearly 30 years and have frequently reassessed if my choice was the best one. So it would be incorrect to state that I’m easily convinced or duped. Further I work in an area that requires high levels of reasoning and analysis. I have two University degrees and one postgraduate degree in the field of science and medicine. However I accept we’re all capable of being conned and being gullible. No one is immune.

JW's don't shun anyone for not being a JW. We have many in our ranks with unbelieving mates.....usually because one or the other spouse begins their spiritual journey after they were married, as I did.....none of them are treated as lepers I assure you. We have neighbors and workmates and school friends of all faiths and we are as helpful and friendly to them as we are to anyone else. Jesus parable of the "Good Samaritan" tells us what a good neighbor is.
The difference is that we do not keep close company with those who do not worship Jehovah or who have little regard for his laws...

I was referring to the practice of disfellowshipping.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/gods-love/disfellowshipped-person/

Its a fair assessment. We don't believe in any of those things because they are not found in the Bible.
Heaven or hell is not a Bible scenario. Its a pagan idea. "Life or death" is what God's people were offered.

The Jews did not believe that the soul was immortal or that there was any life after death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10; Ezekiel 18:4)

Eternal punishment is simply eternal death. Why would God want to torture people forever? To do that he would have to give them everlasting life.....but that is promised only to the righteous.

Well that’s useful to know what your view on the afterlife is. I don’t agree with it of course and I doubt if any other Christian group does.

 

[rational experiences]

Eternal means as a use of a human word, a human word after thinking. A human word usage of describing.

That it had always existed, still exists, and always will exist.

Creation does not own that inclusion. For science says I want to take the power, convert it, use it and remove it.

That statement does not own any description of the meaning eternal.

If a human says I believe that when I physically die.....I know...evidence says so, which is medical.

Medical says....a human does not exist before their own presence. Animals do as animals.

Humans in medical science say I am not an animal.

Medical science says.....2 human being adults have sex. They form a human baby who grows into an adult.

Medical science says....the 2 forms of human both die a death and then the body decomposes.

In some science studies a dead human being body does not decompose.

Humans in biological science say, dinosaurs were snap frozen and owned eternal bio cell life as a deceased body.

So we own pre biological advice that a bio life form can remain frozen in death with decomposition.

Medical science knowledge...without a dispute.

A human being says, memory told me that 2 human being parents came out of an eternal body. The same place where creation was released from. And creation is just a portion of that body destroyed. As spiritual beings live in that body and caused it.

The reason for spiritual idealism....as a self imposed discussion of humans thinking about past reasons for existing.

Science cannot argue using any term reference eternal, for they would be lying.

Humans in spiritual discussion are taught, you are lying if you claim that when you die you live owning another spirit form.

Science therefore is the biggest liar of them all as a storyteller.

As a human says...if I live as another form of spirit, I will not be advised of that reality until I inherit it. If that motivates my personal to be reasonable in my life spiritually as a teaching that I should be my best self as a human, then it is a reasonable ideal to preach.

 

[Samael_Khan]

We seem to have quite a few ex-JWs hovering around. I'm not suprised at all. JWs and ex-JWs do talk quite a lot to the Baha'is. I suspect a ying-yang relationship between opposites.

I grew up Christian and identified as being a Christian before become a Baha'i nearly 30 years ago. If I hadn't become a Baha'i I probably would have persisted with the Baptist Church though would have been an outlier. I explored Hinduism and Buddhism prior to becoming a Baha'i and found an undeniable light in these two faiths that seemed to parallel Christianity. Its therefore no coincidence I choose a religion that sees Buddha and Krishna as being Manifestations of God along with Christ and Muhammad. I have never been attracted to the JWs as it seems to be the antithesis of my core universalist beliefs.

I'd be interested to hear your journey including what led you to the JWs. Why did you have the good sense to leave? Everytime I talk to @Deeje another ex-JW comes out of the woodwork to their tell their story. I believe its really important to have your voice here. I firmly believe that no religion is better than the wrong religion.

I will give you the very very summarised outline of my journey:

I grew up catholic but never got confirmed. I became disillusioned as a teenager and became atheist for a couple of years. A seventh day adventist showed me a seminar on how Revelations conforms to reality and i was shaken. So i started studying religions and developed a passion for them. So i became agnostic. While i studied many different religions i became friends with a JW and she convinced me to study with them ( who wouldnt want a free study with a religious group if they have a passion for religion?). Because of my belief in a conspiracy about the world ( i was a believer in conspiracy theories at the time), the sense of community amongst witnesses, their study centric approach to worship and a bad patch i was going through i joined them and got baptised. I read the KJV 1611 version of the Bible from beginning to end ( a masterpiece of english literature even though it is a translation).

There were many benefits of being a JW. I learned so much about public speaking, cold calling, experiencing what people are really going through in life ( a sure benefit of door to door witnessing), the bible and how to convince people through appealing to their concerns about life, capitalising on their vulnerabilities. An example is: say for instance your mom passes away, i as a jw, will speak to you about how god promises that she will be resurrected and you will see her again, in the hope that you will embrace the religion eventually.

I noticed problems from the start though which didnt jive with me logically, but i ignored it. They would say things like the elders "take the lead" but arent leaders as Christ is our leader. That is contradictory. They would say a blanket statement that " we as Gods people are a happy people" yet most JWs struggle in life which is acknowledged. So in what sense are they happy? I also didnt have a black and white view of things because that is illogical. I also became bored in meetings because they become repetitive. The same examples are used and the way they use it doesnt make sense according to the bibles context. For instance they will quote proverbs which says that "the path of the righteous grows brighter and brighter" as proof that God gradually reveals truth, supporting the idea that they should change doctrine on a continuous basis. Yet that scripture doesnt deal with truth in its context but morality. I started seeing them as anti intellectual to a certain extent. Which was strange to me since they published "Insight into the scriptures" which is super in depth.

I stayed because I saw them as Gods people as at the time i always thought that the key doctrines were unchanging and salvation wasnt based on the other changes they made to doctrine. Then after growing in knowledge about the bible ( i was chatting to non witnesses about the bible as they went into way more depth than Witnesses. Often witnesses didnt like me talking in depth about the bible because it intimidated them, such as with types and antitypes) JW teachings didnt make sense to me in many cases and i questioned why I believe these things. So i studied the anointed and 144 000 doctrine. The JW interpretation didnt make sense to me from what i read and i started trying to reference the verse by verse meaning of romans 8 using the JW library app and Watchtower Library CD rom. What was shocking is that they havent commented on the verses that made me question their doctrine since 1975. I started looking up the meaning of specific verses and realised that the JWs dont comment on many verses in the bible therefore how do they know the true meaning of prophecy and such? So because their interpretations ignore vital verses and the 144000 and anointed doctrine are so vital for salvation i stopped going to meetings and called the elders over. They didnt want to discuss the scriptures with me because they said that if the organisation hasnt discussed these verses then they cannot because they can only say what the organisation says. At that i dissasociated myself from the group.

From the last two meetings i went to until the meetings with the elders i did further research online and discovered the issues about people committing suicide from shunning and the child abuse problem in Australia. The problem in Australia is fact. So I became upset and disillusioned as well because the organisation wasnt telling us the bad that is happening in the group. They are white washing what is happening. And they white wash their past (i have some of russels old books and publications which prove the facts of certain statements against that opposers to JWs say. The elders didnt want me to read them.)

So I left, and my leaving was caused mainly by reading the Bible and disagreeing with what they taught. I wont go back because of all the other indoctrination issues.

Also my view of the world gradually changed over time because of maturity. I have a better methadology as to how to determine what is true from what is false. I appreciate self expression. It is essential for the human experience. I see the expressional benefit of other religions. Today I am agnostic and even though i dont believe religions are true I still see the great benefit in them from a self expression standpoint.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I will give you the very very summarised outline of my journey:

Thanks for sharing you story.

It sounds like an exciting place to be, stepping back from being affiliated with any religion and having the opportunity to learn about other faiths. It is the main reason I’m on this forum.

It sounds as if your time with the JWs was valuable in many respects but you outgrew what was on offer. What religion is the main focus for you at the main moment? I’ve learnt a lot about Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism since coming to RF.

Although religion wasn’t a priority for me in my teenage years I enjoyed the study of science at school and so went on to study zoology at University followed by medicine. The capacity to critically evaluate ideas and provide an objective analysis are important skills that are applicable to studying religion.

So what’s your take on the 144,000 in the book of Revelation? Are you familiar with a Baha’i narrative on this text? Its great you have come to appreciate the KJV Bible from an early age. It remains one of my favourite books. Have you studied Islam or the Quran at all?

 

[Samael_Khan]

Thanks for sharing you story.

It sounds like an exciting place to be, stepping back from being affiliated with any religion and having the opportunity to learn about other faiths. It is the main reason I’m on this forum.

It sounds as if your time with the JWs was valuable in many respects but you outgrew what was on offer. What religion is the main focus for you at the main moment? I’ve learnt a lot about Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism since coming to RF.

Although religion wasn’t a priority for me in my teenage years I enjoyed the study of science at school and so went on to study zoology at University followed by medicine. The capacity to critically evaluate ideas and provide an objective analysis are important skills that are applicable to studying religion.

So what’s your take on the 144,000 in the book of Revelation? Are you familiar with a Baha’i narrative on this text? Its great you have come to appreciate the KJV Bible from an early age. It remains one of my favourite books. Have you studied Islam or the Quran at all?

It is a very exciting place to be in life. I only truly appreciated freedom once I left.

My main focus at the moment is not religion pre se, but indoctrination. So i study dangerous cults, how to determine what is true from what is false, comparative religons etc. I am learning to appreciate the common thought patterns between these cults and other religions as well as ideaologies. Indoctrination transcends religion. I am also studying the development of myth.

The main religions I am studying at the moment are those of ancient Egypt and Islam, the first because i am fascinated by the creativity and the second because i have had many discussions with muslims and i see the patterns of indoctrination in the religion. For instance apostasy is punished either by shunning or death. Also it is becoming apparent to me that Mohammed was quite possibly a narcissistic cult leader as he shares similarities to other modern cult leaders I have researched. But that is from the Sunni Hadith. The Shia are a different matter all together.

Critical analysis is an important skill which I see many people dont have. Which leads me to think that that level of thinking isnt common in life.

I am not familiar with the Baha'i take on the 144 000. I plan on reading it in the Baha'i reference library in time though. The 144000 interpretation is tricky because, although I can eliminate certain false interpretations I cannot figure out who the author intended them to be. The best interpretation i have come across is one a friend of mine thinks, which is that they are actual Israelites. My main confusion is with the reason why the tribes' names are changed. Levi and Joseph are added and Ephraim and I think Dan is taken away. Joseph covers ephraim because Menassah and Ephraim are his children. But the tribe of Dan is completely eliminated. Levi takes his place because they were the priestly tribe which didnt have a land, which is why they were never included amongst the 12. But their inclusion shows that they do inherit land in Revelation. Problem is that their purpose is to sing in heaven. The great multitude will reign as Kings and Priests on earth.

I like the King James because it sacrifices accuracy for linguistic mastery. But when it comes to bible translations all of them are to be looked at because they express certain points in a better way than others. Also which manuscripts must be uses in translation is another contentious point to consider. It is good though that the basic narrative stays the same across translations.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It is a very exciting place to be in life. I only truly appreciated freedom once I left.

My main focus at the moment is not religion pre se, but indoctrination. So i study dangerous cults, how to determine what is true from what is false, comparative religons etc. I am learning to appreciate the common thought patterns between these cults and other religions as well as ideaologies. Indoctrination transcends religion. I am also studying the development of myth.

Why am I not surprised that you have an interest in studying dangerous cults after having been a member of the JWs.

Once the need to see scriptures as literal is shed, and this need is extremely strong with the JWs then we are free to see a strong mythical element running through the Christian scriptures from the beginning of Genesis to the book of Revelation IMHO.

The main religions I am studying at the moment are those of ancient Egypt and Islam, the first because i am fascinated by the creativity and the second because i have had many discussions with muslims and i see the patterns of indoctrination in the religion. For instance apostasy is punished either by shunning or death. Also it is becoming apparent to me that Mohammed was quite possibly a narcissistic cult leader as he shares similarities to other modern cult leaders I have researched. But that is from the Sunni Hadith. The Shia are a different matter all together.

It is hard to appreciate Muhammad as we have so much embellished and contradictory myth through the Hadiths. The Sunnah is unreliable too. Legends of Muhammad were spread by chauvinistic Muslims bragging about how many heads of His enemies tribe were lopped off in a single day. Then the ulama have added to what was written in the Quran so we have unjust and barbaric punishments for apostasy and the like, which have only a tenuous relationship to Muhammad and the Quran.

Speaking to Muslims on this forum can be challenging as many don’t have English as their first language. They are usually not good ambassadors for Islam and often don’t last long.

Why the interest in the religions of the Egyptians?

Critical analysis is an important skill which I see many people dont have. Which leads me to think that that level of thinking isnt common in life.

It depends entirely on which social circles you move in.

I am not familiar with the Baha'i take on the 144 000. I plan on reading it in the Baha'i reference library in time though. The 144000 interpretation is tricky because, although I can eliminate certain false interpretations I cannot figure out who the author intended them to be. The best interpretation i have come across is one a friend of mine thinks, which is that they are actual Israelites. My main confusion is with the reason why the tribes' names are changed. Levi and Joseph are added and Ephraim and I think Dan is taken away. Joseph covers ephraim because Menassah and Ephraim are his children. But the tribe of Dan is completely eliminated. Levi takes his place because they were the priestly tribe which didnt have a land, which is why they were never included amongst the 12. But their inclusion shows that they do inherit land in Revelation. Problem is that their purpose is to sing in heaven. The great multitude will reign as Kings and Priests on earth.

The best answer to the question of 144,000 from a Baha’i perspective is there are no references to this verse in our writings. So it is an open book, a journey of discovery. From a Baha’i perspective the book is genuinely prophetic and amongst the important developments from a Judea-Christian view is the rapid emergence of Islam that spread from the Arabian Peninsula to Africa, Europe, Asia and throughout the Middle East. The occupation of the Holy land by successive Caliphates over a 1200 year period was surely significant. Therefore it should come as no surprise a Baha’i exegesis of the book of Revelation has references to Islam as well as key historical events.

I like the King James because it sacrifices accuracy for linguistic mastery. But when it comes to bible translations all of them are to be looked at because they express certain points in a better way than others. Also which manuscripts must be uses in translation is another contentious point to consider. It is good though that the basic narrative stays the same across translations.

Wise and sensible words.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Why am I not surprised that you have an interest in studying dangerous cults after having been a member of the JWs.

I actually studied cults while being a Witness. I have always been fascinated by them. It is because there is something very eerie about them. So the similarities between them and my faith at the time amused me. Once i left i was shocked to realise the impact they had on me and how they got me to accept things which I by nature didnt agree with. I think I am still recovering from the damage their way of thinking has done to me and I can see the positive progress I have made over the past year. I actually became a better and more loving person as I dont see the world as my enemy anymore. I am glad to have been part of a cult. Not many people can brag about that I dont think i would have appreciated life as much as i do now if i didnt join them.

Once the need to see scriptures as literal is shed, and this need is extremely strong with the JWs then we are free to see a strong mythical element running through the Christian scriptures from the beginning of Genesis to the book of Revelation IMHO.

JWs dont actually see the scriptures as literal as a whole. The interpreters have an agenda so they interpret something literal or symbolic depending on whether it suits their narrative or not. I do see strong mythical elements in the Bible but also a historical element. The mythical element often has parrallels in other myth and either incorporated them into the myth or evolved naturally from those myths. The book of Revelation is intentionally mythical. The idea that the fallen angels are trapped in tartarus for a period of time is similar in principle to the story of the Titans on Greek myth.

It is hard to appreciate Muhammad as we have so much embellished and contradictory myth through the Hadiths. The Sunnah is unreliable too. Legends of Muhammad were spread by chauvinistic Muslims bragging about how many heads of His enemies tribe were lopped off in a single day. Then the ulama have added to what was written in the Quran so we have unjust and barbaric punishments for apostasy and the like, which have only a tenuous relationship to Muhammad and the Quran.

Speaking to Muslims on this forum can be challenging as many don’t have English as their first language. They are usually not good ambassadors for Islam and often don’t last long.

Why the interest in the religions of the Egyptians?

There is currently research happening now that is actually trying to figure out who Muhammed was and how Islam started. The problem is that Islam contains many claims from the Hadith but archaeology is showing a lack of evidence for these claims.

I am fascinated by Egyptian religion and other relgions for the same reason I am fascinated with the works of HP Lovecraft and the Warhammer universe. I like lore in general and their symbolic narrative which explores concepts of human nature and philosophy in a creative way. Also I have read a book by Benjamin Sommer who is a Jewish scholar and he explores the idea that much like the Egyptian Gods, the early God of the bible was fluid by nature, could manifest in a body in the real world at multiple times but simultaneously exist in heaven. So I am also studying the similarities between the Pentateuch and Egyptian myth. Also the first monotheistic religion existed briefly in Egypt, when Akhenaten made the worship of the sun god Aten the official god for worship and the worship of other gods was banned. That is a very interesting topic.

It depends entirely on which social circles you move in.

I gauge my comment based on the reasons why most people follow religions or believe strange things and accept conspiracy theories as true. It isnt based on evidence but claims.

The best answer to the question of 144,000 from a Baha’i perspective is there are no references to this verse in our writings. So it is an open book, a journey of discovery. From a Baha’i perspective the book is genuinely prophetic and amongst the important developments from a Judea-Christian view is the rapid emergence of Islam that spread from the Arabian Peninsula to Africa, Europe, Asia and throughout the Middle East. The occupation of the Holy land by successive Caliphates over a 1200 year period was surely significant. Therefore it should come as no surprise a Baha’i exegesis of the book of Revelation has references to Islam as well as key historical events.

Would you regard that as one of many possible interpretations or as the correct interpretation?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

prophets are human too, and they prophesy through the lens of their own understanding and perspective.

Why would we interested in their opinions? Any one around you could just as easily prophesy for you through the lenses of their own understanding and perspective, and with better information. Here's a prophecy - the planet will warm and weather become more extreme due to the injudicious burning of fossil fuels.

he has taken it upon himself to be his own law.

Using Latin roots, we say that such a person is autonomous. It's a virtue in secular humanism, but called sin by the pastor who wants you to submit to his law. That's a main difference between the past and modernity. In the past, you were not seen as a free, autonomous citizen empowered by the state to pursue life, liberty, and happiness as he understood them, but as a subject who must obey the laws of others. The religions are losing that grip on humanity as more and more people become their own law (autonomous).

I understand that many people in the religions are taught to lament that transformation, but it's actually a basic American principle and considered moral progress in my circles.

if you believe like me; then you believe that God made all things by the Word and so everything exists by the Word of God. And the Word of God is basically the source code of the universe. Therefore evil can be defined as whatever goes against it.

Why would I believe that? Why do you? Scripture is not a reliable source of good ideas.

And evil can be defined as trying to deceive people into submission with threats of eternal fire. It sounds like you allow your church to tell you what is evil, but why do you trust them? I trust my own judgment, and have no desire to allow them to substitute theirs for it.

What I still want to know is how I can tell which of a group of people I should choose to believe when none agree, but each claims to know the truth.

I realize that that is a rhetorical question, but I'll give it an answer anyway. I would suggest believing none of them. Believe their evidence if they have any, and walk away from them all.We don't need others to do our thinking for us. Every idea we hold should be our own, that is, believed because we have a reason to believe other than somebody told us to believe it.

The verified historical records provided to you earlier are based on eyewitness accounts that prove the life of JESUS.

You use that word prove a lot, but there is nothing in scripture that is proof of anything other than that somebody wrote some words down. How is a story proof that the story is true?

Neither you nor the scriptures have proved anything if no minds were changed. You didn't change my mind. I still have no opinion whether a historical Jesus ever existed. Maybe. Maybe not.I can't see where it matters.

Here's where the believer often says, yeah, but you take the word of historians that Caesar existed. But I don't really care either way. I think that Caesar probably existed because I have good evidence that he probably did, but if it were untrue, so what?

Wow I see that your continuing to go down a path that denies nearly every scholar and historian that disagree with you.

There is a large body of scholarship that questions the historicity of Jesus. From Christ myth theory - Wikipedia

"The Christ myth theory (also known as the Jesus myth theory, Jesus mythicism, or the Jesus ahistoricity theory) is the view that "the story of Jesus is a piece of mythology", possessing no "substantial claims to historical fact". Alternatively, in terms given by Bart Ehrman paraphrasing Earl Doherty, "the historical Jesus did not exist. Or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity." There are three strands of mythicism, including the view that there may have been a historical Jesus, who lived in a dimly remembered past, and was fused with the mythological Christ of Paul. A second stance is that there was never a historical Jesus, only a mythological character, later historicized in the Gospels. A third view is that no conclusion can be made about a historical Jesus, and if there was one, nothing can be known about him."

I don't believe any of the stories of Jesus involving magic - virgin birth, water to wine, resurrection. How much can be stripped away from the biblical account and say that this is still a real person? What if he wasn't from Nazareth? Is that still Jesus? What if he were adopted? How about if there were really only 3-6 apostles at various times? Does any itinerant preacher named Jesus count?

You don't prevail with critical thinkers just by insisting that everybody knows this or that. If you merely assert authority, your stock plummets. Here's a nice example from a prominent theologian:

"All I am in private life is a literary critic and historian, that's my job. And I'm prepared to say on that basis if anyone thinks the Gospels are either legends or novels, then that person is simply showing his incompetence as a literary critic." - CS Lewis

Fail.

He's telling you that if you disagree with him on a subjective matter, literary criticism, that you are incompetent. Isn't that the same as a movie critic saying such a thing? Consider this from a movie critic:

"All I am in private life is a movie critic. That's my job. And I'm prepared to say on that basis if anyone thinks the movies I like are bad or the ones I dislike are good,, then that person is simply showing his incompetence as a movie critic."

Is that compelling or off-putting? You're closer to that now than you should like to be with your "virtually every scholar knows" and its implication that one should simply defer to their opinions, whoever these people are and whatever their agendas.. It's an appeal to authority fallacy.

Anyway, many scholars are mythicists. Dorothy Murdoch (deceased) and Richard Carrier are two prominent names among mythicists. Here are others. They also don't do my thinking for me.

According to the scriptures only a fool says in his heart there is no God.

Well, that's out of date. Today, it's the other way around. Only a fool would believe in this god. It's the fool who believes without sufficient evidence. It's the fool who considers the wisdom of the world foolishness, and who considers dusty scriptures wisdom.

I'll bet you didn't like reading that any more than I like being called a fool by ancient goatherds. But at least I didn't call you vile. Let's look at a little more of that scripture:

"The fool says in his heart,'There is no God.' They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good" - Psalm 14:1

See there? According to this holy book, all unbelievers all corrupt and vile, and not one of us does good. What do you recommend my reaction to that to be? Respect?

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that a god wouldn't write like that

You as an athiest cannot prove that there is no God.

I can and have proved that the god of the Christian Bible is mythical (I assume that's the one you mean), but only because it is described in mutually exclusive terms. a logical impossibility.

I can't rule out the deist god, however, but what would be the value if I could? I already live as if it doesn't exist without proof. Noninterventionalist gods - gods that don't affect our lives - don't matter even if they exist, and I don't see any evidence of any interventionalist gods, either.

Proof isn't part of the process of deciding. It seldom is.

 

[sojourner]

Here's a prophecy - the planet will warm and weather become more extreme due to the injudicious burning of fossil fuels.

I think this is a great prophecy. May not be "official," but I think it's truth nonetheless.

Every idea we hold should be our own, that is, believed because we have a reason to believe other than somebody told us to believe it.

But yet, there is a wisdom in shared values.

You use that word prove a lot, but there is nothing in scripture that is proof of anything other than that somebody wrote some words down. How is a story proof that the story is true?

Yeah, the poster uses that "defense" a lot. And it's nothing more than a goose fart in a tornado.

I still have no opinion whether a historical Jesus ever existed. Maybe. Maybe not.I can't see where it matters.

It doesn't.

Proof isn't part of the process of deciding. It seldom is.

Right on!

 

[Audie]

As the supernatural stuff in the bible
is bs-so anyone who does not understand that
will never understand the bible.

The best approach is to see it for what it is.
A mixture of things such as advice, moral
lessons, folk tales,poetry, fantasy etc.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As the supernatural stuff in the bible
is bs-so anyone who does not understand that
will never understand the bible.

The best approach is to see it for what it is.
A mixture of things such as advice, moral
lessons, folk tales,poetry, fantasy etc.

Which is why non-believers often have a better understanding of the Bible. When one has fantasies of what it means then one will go to all sorts of extremes to defend one's personal interpretation. That is why there are thousands of sects of Christianity and also why some of the cruelest and bloodiest of wars have been fought over the interpretation of this book. If one realized what it was in the first place there would not be that much need to "Prove the other wrong".

 

[Dawnofhope]

I actually studied cults while being a Witness. I have always been fascinated by them. It is because there is something very eerie about them. So the similarities between them and my faith at the time amused me. Once i left i was shocked to realise the impact they had on me and how they got me to accept things which I by nature didnt agree with. I think I am still recovering from the damage their way of thinking has done to me and I can see the positive progress I have made over the past year. I actually became a better and more loving person as I dont see the world as my enemy anymore. I am glad to have been part of a cult. Not many people can brag about that I dont think i would have appreciated life as much as i do now if i didnt join them.

It must have been strange studying cults and realising there were parallels with the religion you were part of. I tend to avoid the use of the word cult as its often used pejoratively, creates divisions and isn’t a particularly accurate word. So I would completely avoid calling the JWs a cult although I agree they have some cult like beliefs and practices. Maybe as you were part of the JWs its what you need to do to seperate yourself from your former faith. There are groups like the Branch Davidians and Jonestown that undeniably should be called cults. The JWs are simply not in the same league. However viewing itself as the pure and true Christianity and the rest of Christianity as corrupt and filthy as Deeje has just done is extreme, and borderline delusional. So maybe there is some merit in applying the word to the JWs. I’m not ready to cross that line yet.

JWs dont actually see the scriptures as literal as a whole. The interpreters have an agenda so they interpret something literal or symbolic depending on whether it suits their narrative or not. I do see strong mythical elements in the Bible but also a historical element. The mythical element often has parrallels in other myth and either incorporated them into the myth or evolved naturally from those myths. The book of Revelation is intentionally mythical. The idea that the fallen angels are trapped in tartarus for a period of time is similar in principle to the story of the Titans on Greek myth.

I can certainly see the mix of literal and symbolic with the story of Noah and the worldwide flood being literal and the seven headed beast in Revelation as symbolising the UN.

There is currently research happening now that is actually trying to figure out who Muhammed was and how Islam started. The problem is that Islam contains many claims from the Hadith but archaeology is showing a lack of evidence for these claims.

Hadiths are not agreed upon as being authentic and authoritative like the Quran. Proving or disproving Hadiths will be useful but is of limited value. The Quran is seen by Muslims (and Baha’is) as Divine Revelation so if you want to discredit Islam you would need to discredit the Quran. The Quran itself provides very little biographical information about Muhammad. So to discredit Muhammmad you need reliable historical information about Muhammad. Good luck with finding any.

I am fascinated by Egyptian religion and other relgions for the same reason I am fascinated with the works of HP Lovecraft and the Warhammer universe. I like lore in general and their symbolic narrative which explores concepts of human nature and philosophy in a creative way. Also I have read a book by Benjamin Sommer who is a Jewish scholar and he explores the idea that much like the Egyptian Gods, the early God of the bible was fluid by nature, could manifest in a body in the real world at multiple times but simultaneously exist in heaven. So I am also studying the similarities between the Pentateuch and Egyptian myth. Also the first monotheistic religion existed briefly in Egypt, when Akhenaten made the worship of the sun god Aten the official god for worship and the worship of other gods was banned. That is a very interesting topic.

It does sound interesting and I can see the appeal. We have the indigenous Maori where I live that is stepped in mythology through oral traditions. I have family connections to Japan so Shintoism has similar beliefs to the Maori.

I gauge my comment based on the reasons why most people follow religions or believe strange things and accept conspiracy theories as true. It isnt based on evidence but claims.

I work in the health sector so its an environment where critical thinking and analysis of data is essential for peoples lives and well being.

Would you regard that as one of many possible interpretations or as the correct interpretation?

In brief the most likely explanations in studying Revelations and its counterpart Daniel is secular in that its a commentary on events after the fact or they are Prophetic. So it depends on whether or not religious claims are accepted and if so what is the basis of those religious claims. For example the sceptics will see Daniel as being written in the second century BC and thus creates a narrative around actual history of the Greeks empire in relation to the Jews. Revelation becomes a commentary on the Roman Empire. Based on what we know of either the book of Daniel or Revelations it is impossible to prove or disprove its genuinely Prophetic. For Baha’is that belief rests on belief in Bahá’u’lláh as being the bearer of a Divine Message, as Muhammad brought the Quran, Christ the Gospel and Moses the Torah. Sound familiar?

 

[Samael_Khan]

It must have been strange studying cults and realising there were parallels with the religion you were part of. I tend to avoid the use of the word cult as its often used pejoratively, creates divisions and isn’t a particularly accurate word. So I would completely avoid calling the JWs a cult although I agree they have some cult like beliefs and practices. Maybe as you were part of the JWs its what you need to do to seperate yourself from your former faith. The are groups like the Branch Davidians and Jonestown that undeniably should be called cults. The JWs are simply not in the same league. However viewing itself as the pure and true Christianity and the rest of Christianity as corrupt and filthy as Deeje has just done is extreme, and borderline delusional. So maybe there is some merit in applying the word to the JWs. I’m not ready to cross that line yet.

I don't use the word cult prejoratively. I have no problems with cults in general. I have a problem with dangerous cults. And dangerous cults vary in degrees with JW's being on the one side of the spectrum and The Peoples Temple and Branch Davidians being on the other side. So when I say some group is a dangerous cult I don't just use the word. I explain the reasons why. There is a standard to measure what constitutes a dangerous cult which I presented earlier on. Basically cults describe groups that use indoctrination on their members. They are not only religious groups, but corporate, medical and political as well:

Freedom of Mind Resource Center

And you must read this book:

Nineteen Eighty-Four - Wikipedia

So purely on their use of indoctrination I will call them a cult. They certainly qualify. But yes it is a very tricky word with a confusing meaning so I am trying to avoid that these days. I am moving more towards using the word indoctrination because that is pretty much the tactics that these groups employ and is pretty specific.

Indoctrination meaning:

"the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically."

I can certainly see the mix of literal and symbolic with the story of Noah and the worldwide flood being literal and the seven headed beast in Revelation as the UN.

And the 144000. They interpret the 144000 to be literal but the tribes and numbers that make up that literal number figurative. And they don't even explain why there is a difference.

Hadiths are not agreed upon as being authentic and authoritative like the Quran. Proving or disproving Hadiths will be useful but is of limited value. The Quran is seen by Muslims (and Baha’is) as Divine Revelation so if you want to discredit Islam you would need to discredit the Quran. The Quran itself provides very little biographical information about Muhammad. So to discredit Muhammmad you need reliable historical information about Muhammad. Good luck with finding any.

That is the thing, no reliable historical information. Even though they say the Quran is most authentic and authoritative, their interpretation of it is subject to what they believe acceptable hadiths say. So it is a symbiotic relationship between the two. Without the Hadiths we have no way of understanding the Quran from most muslims perspective. I think we can interpret it based off the stories and books that it copies from, such as the Jewish and Christian sources that were spread around the area it was written.

It does sound interesting and I can see the appeal. We have the indigenous Maori where I live that is stepped in mythology through oral traditions. I have family connections to Japan so Shintoism has a similar beliefs to the Maori.

I must still get to those religions. I know a bit about Shintoism because I am an anime and manga fan. I know a bit about the Maori from reading Cloud Atlas, listening to the maori metal band Alien Weaponry and watching the All Blacks scare their opponents with the Haka.

I work in the health sector so its an environment where critical thinking and analysis of data is essential for peoples lives and well being.

Yes indeed. But people do not use those same methods in real life for many things. I know JW's who are doctors. Look at their critical thinking skills when applied to religion.

In brief the most likely explanations in studying Revelations and its counterpart Daniel is that its a commentary on events after the fact or they are Prophetic. So it depends on whether or not religious claims are accepted and if so what is the basis of those religious claims. For example the sceptics will see Daniel as being written in the second century BC and thus creates a narrative around actual history of the Greeks. Revelation becomes a commentary on the Roman Empire. Based on what we know of either the book of Daniel or Revelations it is impossible to prove its genuinely Prophetic. For Baha’is that belief rests on belief in Bahá’u’lláh as being the bearer of a Divine Message, as Muhammad brought the Quran, Christ the Gospel and Moses the Torah. Sound familiar?

I prefer to read the book of Revelations in terms of its narrative and only interpret the symbols when explicitly explained. Then I see whether other symbols are commonly used and explained in other parts of the Bible and figure out the meaning of the symbol. Then I translate those symbols into their literal meaning. Using those limitations of interpretations which are held together by the Bible I find that book is pretty meaningful and says quite a bit.

 

[3rdAngel]

You use that word prove a lot, but there is nothing in scripture that is proof of anything other than that somebody wrote some words down. How is a story proof that the story is true?

Depends. All historty are stories that can either be verified or not verified. It is not a story if other eyewitnesses testify to it being fact in the historical records from different sources. The study of history has methodologies for verifying what is true and not true.

Neither you nor the scriptures have proved anything if no minds were changed. You didn't change my mind. I still have no opinion whether a historical Jesus ever existed. Maybe. Maybe not.I can't see where it matters.

Then it seems that the scriptures are doing a good Job with one thirds of the earths population being believers

Here's where the believer often says, yeah, but you take the word of historians that Caesar existed. But I don't really care either way. I think that Caesar probably existed because I have good evidence that he probably did, but if it were untrue, so what?

I do not need this argument virtually all scholars and historians agree that JESUS existed based on the historical records you have already been provided from both ROMANS and JEWISH that agree with the biblical record

There is a large body of scholarship that questions the historicity of Jesus. From Christ myth theory - Wikipedia Anyway, many scholars are mythicists. Dorothy Murdoch (deceased) and Richard Carrier are two prominent names among mythicists. Here are others. They also don't do my thinking for me.

We are talking about the question "Did JESUS exist" not did he do miricles. Your reference is a distraction to what we are not talking about. It seems you are contradicting yourself here. You start off this section trying to refer to scholars as evidence to something we are not discussing then when you do not agree with things they say you say "they do not do your thinking for you". All that seems to say is that you believe what you believe no amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. Yet I believe if you really believed that you would not feel the need to discuss religious topics. For someone who does not believe you sure like to talk about God a lot.

Nice talking to you my friend. I will leave you with the last say. Seems you need it more than I do. I am at peace in what I believe.

 

[74x12]

Using Latin roots, we say that such a person is autonomous. It's a virtue in secular humanism, but called sin by the pastor who wants you to submit to his law. That's a main difference between the past and modernity. In the past, you were not seen as a free, autonomous citizen empowered by the state to pursue life, liberty, and happiness as he understood them, but as a subject who must obey the laws of others. The religions are losing that grip on humanity as more and more people become their own law (autonomous).

I understand that many people in the religions are taught to lament that transformation, but it's actually a basic American principle and considered moral progress in my circles.

Well, that's not at all what I meant ... maybe you missed my point because of unfortunate wording I used.

Why would I believe that? Why do you? Scripture is not a reliable source of good ideas.

And evil can be defined as trying to deceive people into submission with threats of eternal fire. It sounds like you allow your church to tell you what is evil, but why do you trust them? I trust my own judgment, and have no desire to allow them to substitute theirs for it.

You allow government and society to tell you what is evil. Even though you might believe you don't. Yet, you're influenced; your opinions and views carefully molded.

How are you different than someone who allows their church to tell them? And by the way I compare things said at church to the scriptures. If it doesn't line up; I don't worry about it.

 

[rational experiences]

The story of science as encoded, recorded as human memory owns a voiced anima type of male/anima sounding speaking of voices. And it sings also.

I only heard it after I was irradiated fall out attacked at home minding my own business.

I then understood human victimization in science causes.

And it is after all a human as a male group agreed method that invented science.

So I studied and understood that the God male theme, tells a self advice about the history science.

States I was once a higher male self, and quantified my being as some type of God self...and I am a proven liar.

As simple as it is.

When he activated his pyramid, the UFO MASS radiation that came to Earth just for his male invented science themes...that Earth did not previous own....attacked his life and all the Nature.

He even advises you that it what occurred. And it was then AI machine encoded by a male human self as an idealised return of his opposition. So it came as the alienation of self...by metallic mass.

Natural reasoning advice....I looked in the past UFO MASS Sun collapse and how it attacked O Earth...which I evaluated as an entity and named it a God.

I saw the reaction...yet in the vision no Nature existed. So that information to be opposed told him straight away...because no Nature existed in that reactive MASS of UFO....then it would remove and oppose his own presence.

So humans today reading the AI male science statements.....encoded, by UFO mass to own the speaking of voice as a confession against science itself.

I was a higher spiritual being of a male human.
I attacked Earth and gave it a nuclear ground reaction....and so radiation passed through my body and I was converted.....I survived.

The animal and human Nature was changed and survived.

I then prove how irrational I was in that irradiated state and then said and now God not liking what the science self had caused, will reuse science and destroy you all.

Exactly how it was taught....science is the Destroyer of life on Earth.

And it never owned any other reality....yet science keeps trying to enforce that to do science is a Holy act....which to any victim is a total lie.

What most studiers do not seem to impose, how would you think if you were not the type of bio life we inherited? What would you have looked like originally as the first male on Earth in a higher Earth Nature and a higher life body?

No one would know or realize factually what it would have been like to be different in life and mind to the self we became after science UFO mass converted our life bodies.

And in Nature attacked today by science caused nuclear fall out...UFO mass for science converting, we see how Nature and life is dying. Science is also knowingly advised of that same human realization and chooses to ignore it....for one reason. Their personal selfishness....the exact same history as the male higher self who originally invented science.

Made the choice his own male group, yet forced attacked every other body that owned no say in the want of its causes.

 

[rational experiences]

Depends. All historty are stories that can either be verified or not verified. It is not a story if other eyewitnesses testify to it being fact in the historical records from different sources. The study of history has methodologies for verifying what is true and not true.

Then it seems that the scriptures are doing a good Job with one thirds of the earths population being believers

I do not need this argument virtually all scholars and historians agree that JESUS existed based on the historical records you have already been provided from both ROMANS and JEWISH that agree with the biblical record

We are talking about the question "Did JESUS exist" not did he do miricles. Your reference is a distraction to what we are not talking about. It seems you are contradicting yourself here. You start off this section trying to refer to scholars as evidence to something we are not discussing then when you do not agree with things they say you say "they do not do your thinking for you". All that seems to say is that you believe what you believe no amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. Yet I believe if you really believed that you would not feel the need to discuss religious topics. For someone who does not believe you sure like to talk about God a lot.

Nice talking to you my friend. I will leave you with the last say. Seems you need it more than I do. I am at peace in what I believe.

As a human, we are meant to impose the use of logic when we do study.

I know that logic says, the story Jesus, was written after an event of historic lived information as a review and given a TITLE.

The history says that science gave the atmospheric body mass a gas title heavenly spirit as MOSES...and infers it to a male self deism, the male self who invented science, as a male and as a human male.

If you cared to use logic. Only human males as humans and as males impose the realization of self, male to science conditions. How self deism was imposed originally for a male and his science concepts invented science.

What he studied was an unnamed and natural created state.

Why male egotism and science is the cause of all problems we live with today on Earth.....as male group enforced, by what male group imposes it is the strongest.

Therefore DATA in science is given historical statements so that males today can say, we studied it conclusively and gave our male human science verdict, as an agreement.

For documentation is then stated to be agreed upon by a multi male human culture of various different DNA concepts, medical science studies....self Holy Land.

How that agreement existed, for it was a study of science attack and its cause and effect.

Therefore males today all claim by use of male life DNA presence, chemical brain conditions and MEMORY and express, that I was living as the DNA life back then and in modern life, remember. How they express their modern day reality pretending that they are living in the past life.

And so a lot of humans look at them and say....mental health problem.

When they are just a natural human in a science caused conscious expressed reality, that science caused them to inherit, actually.

And it is only a loving review of a human that allows one human to see another human, without intellect giving a dishonest appraisal of a brother or a sister.

Who lives by human sex...never asked to be born, and then inherit what science caused in the past.

So many males today say I was living as Jesus in the past. Lost my life and DNA holiness. Over a period of time I was healing DNA....so I regained my human male life, reborn and healed.

Exactly how the story was medically detailed from Moses nuclear history Egyptian first pyramid attack on life / DNA mutations...to it being healed, regained and realized….and then new nuclear Pyramid science doing it again.

Therefore today in modern day life we own some very spiritual human brothers, who are admired by a huge population. It was no different in the human past.

If you were spiritual and fought on behalf of humanity, you were loved for the love that you displayed, and for the courage to fight and oppose hierarchy.

It is possible that a male who was given a spiritual TITLE of Jesus was a personal self...….and it is possible that he was the storyteller, reborn and living with DNA memory at a later date recanting this story as a spiritual psyche.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't use the word cult prejoratively. I have no problems with cults in general. I have a problem with dangerous cults. And dangerous cults vary in degrees with JW's being on the one side of the spectrum and The Peoples Temple and Branch Davidians being on the other side. So when I say some group is a dangerous cult I don't just use the word. I explain the reasons why. There is a standard to measure what constitutes a dangerous cult which I presented earlier on. Basically cults describe groups that use indoctrination on their members. They are not only religious groups, but corporate, medical and political as well:

Freedom of Mind Resource Center

And you must read this book:

Nineteen Eighty-Four - Wikipedia

So purely on their use of indoctrination I will call them a cult. They certainly qualify. But yes it is a very tricky word with a confusing meaning so I am trying to avoid that these days. I am moving more towards using the word indoctrination because that is pretty much the tactics that these groups employ and is pretty specific.

Indoctrination meaning:

"the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically."

One should exercise great care in choosing a religion by critically evaluating its beliefs before making a decision to join. They should always have the capacity and freedom to examine their beliefs when they are part of a movement and be prepared to leave if necessary should it not add up. It may emerge one’s new found faith just isn’t a particularly good fit. One huge difficulty with the JW movement is the policy of disfellowshipping and how that can tear families apart. It could result in severe psychological problems for members of such a family including suicide. So I believe its excellent you left.

New religious movement - Wikipedia

New religious movement is a better word to describe some of many faiths that have emerged since the nineteenth century. That term would apply to the Jehovah Witness, Church of the Latter Day Saints, Baha’is and Ahmadiyya Muslims. The world cult has been used as a broad brush to apply to any religion outside Christian orthodoxy. Critics of the term equate it to the equivalent of racial slurs.

The one occasions I have been accused of being a cult member was by a fellow GP, a married Christian who was disciplined for having a sexual relationship with a patient. I do volunteer work at a Christian Medical Centre and staying closely affiliated with Conservative Christians is important to me.

And the 144000. They interpret the 144000 to be literal but the tribes and numbers that make up that literal number figurative. And they don't even explain why there is a difference.

I suspect the number is figurative.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Revelation 7:4

"Israel" means literally "he that strives or wrestles with God." In the context of this and the next four verses, Israel is a symbol, a
microcosm of humanity. Israel's history of spiritual struggle is representative of all mankind.

After the 12 tribes of Israel are recited mentioned this understanding is affirmed by the verse:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Revelation 7:9

It will be revealed in verse Revelation 21:12 that the gates of the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, are correlated with the Twelve Tribes of
Israel.

And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

So we have all the nations, kindreds, and peoples entering the different gates of the Holy City or New Jerusalem. In Baha'i theology the New Jerusalem symbolises the New Revelation from God which is likened to a city. So the study of the Torah and associated books is like a city of God. Same deal with the Gospels and subsequence Revelations from God.

Clearly, the New Jerusalem which descends from heaven is not a city of stone and lime, of brick and mortar, but is rather the religion of God which descends from heaven and is described as new. For it is obvious that the Jerusalem which is built of stone and mortar does not descend from heaven and is not renewed, but that what is renewed is the religion of God. – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions


That's my take on the 144,000 but I'm sure there are many other meanings too and interpretations that are just as valid.

That is the thing, no reliable historical information. Even though they say the Quran is most authentic and authoritative, their interpretation of it is subject to what they believe acceptable hadiths say. So it is a symbiotic relationship between the two. Without the Hadiths we have no way of understanding the Quran from most muslims perspective. I think we can interpret it based off the stories and books that it copies from, such as the Jewish and Christian sources that were spread around the area it was written.

The Hadiths provide valuable circumstantial evidence no doubt.

Quite apart from whether or not Muhammad's words are Divine in nature or not, the evidence supporting the reliability of transmission appears much stronger for Islam than Christianity.

Have you heard of the Sana'a and Birmingham manuscripts?

The Sana'a manuscript contains older portions of the Quran showing variances different from the Uthman copy. The parchment upon which the lower codex of the Sana'a manuscript is written has been radiocarbon dated with 99% accuracy to before 671 CE, with a 95.5% probability of being older than 661 CE and 75% probability from before 646 CE. Tests by the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit indicated with a probability of more than 94 percent that the parchment dated from 568 to 645.[ The Sana'a palimpsest is one of the most important manuscripts of the collection in the world.

In 2015, the University of Birmingham disclosed that scientific tests may show a Quran manuscript in its collection as one of the oldest known and believe it was written close to the time of Muhammad. The findings in 2015 of the Birmingham Manuscripts lead Joseph E. B. Lumbard, Assistant Professor of Classical Islam, Brandeis University, to comment:[23]

These recent empirical findings are of fundamental importance. They establish that as regards the broad outlines of the history of the compilation and codification of the Quranic text, the classical Islamic sources are far more reliable than had hitherto been assumed. Such findings thus render the vast majority of Western revisionist theories regarding the historical origins of the Quran untenable.

— Joseph E. B. Lumbard

Criticism of the Quran - Wikipedia

I must still get to those religions. I know a bit about Shintoism because I am an anime and manga fan. I know a bit about the Maori from reading Cloud Atlas, listening to the maori metal band Alien Weaponry and watching the All Blacks scare their opponents with the Haka.

I see you are from South Africa. Is that right? congratulations on winning the world cup despite being beaten by the All Blacks in your opening game.

Shintoism and the religions of the maori peoples would be good for your studies.

Yes indeed. But people do not use those same methods in real life for many things. I know JW's who are doctors. Look at their critical thinking skills when applied to religion.

I had a JW in my GP training group. When we had a day meeting with local indegeous peoples and we needed to observe their customs, my JW colleague and I were are different ends of a spectrum. I ended up providing the prayer and speech on behalf the GP registrar group as we were welcomed by the Maori. My JW colleague distinguished himself as being the only one from our group that didn't attend the day because as a JW he was not comfortable with the Maori cultural practices.

I prefer to read the book of Revelations in terms of its narrative and only interpret the symbols when explicitly explained. Then I see whether other symbols are commonly used and explained in other parts of the Bible and figure out the meaning of the symbol. Then I translate those symbols into their literal meaning. Using those limitations of interpretations which are held together by the Bible I find that book is pretty meaningful and says quite a bit.

So here's another couple of questions. Do you think the beast in Revelation 12:3

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Is the same as the one in Daniel 7:19-21?

Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

We know the identity of the first three beasts. What of the fourth?