Audie
Veteran Member
Paul's snake story is phony.
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Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation
- Thread starter 74x12
- Start date
And your evidence for this is ..?
Here is that section of 1 Corinthians 2 in context (with my emphasis bolded)
"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly this is not about Hebraism vs Hellenism. It is about natural wisdom and spiritual wisdom.
Your last two sentences (only) are valid.
a) Paul is not a "false prophet". He was personally chosen by the risen Christ.
b) Quoting a single verse OT out of context is a great example of eisegesis.
Audie
Veteran Member
Read it. It's absurd.
I am not sure what your post is supposed to mean. I have posted several times about this topic.
Soandso
ᛋᛏᚨᚾᛞ ᛋᚢᚱᛖ
I'm not a big fan of Hitchens, but his quote "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" has merit in situations like this, imo
That was his uncorroborated claim, at least.
To you, it's absurd. To someone who believes what the Bible says, it is clear and understandable.
Hebrews 11 is one of the great chapters in the Bible. It begins this way... "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see."
Those who lack faith will never understand what it is. Therefore, "what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence" simply shows a lack of understanding.
Soandso
ᛋᛏᚨᚾᛞ ᛋᚢᚱᛖ
Look, of all the snakes in Malta, only one is venomous. The one venomous snake that does exist there has weak venom only strong enough to kill rats and small animals
The Snakes in Malta – did you know that one species is venomous?
When thinking about snakes in Malta, we often remember the story of how upon arriving on Malta, St. Paul was bitten by a snake and threw […]
Let's look at the story in more depth -
"28 Once safely on shore, we found out that the island was called Malta. 2 The islanders showed us unusual kindness. They built a fire and welcomed us all because it was raining and cold. 3 Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. 4 When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.” 5 But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects. 6 The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead; but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god."
Why would the native population think these things when there are no snakes on the island that are nearly this venomous? I suspect a fisherman's tale at best, and an outright lie by Paul in all likelihood. His story can, and should be, dismissed for what it is
Audie
Veteran Member
Oh, I understand it just fine. It's a simple story.
I know that there's no vipers in that island; I know
vipers do not "cling" when they bite; I know it absurd to
think anyone would carry about a snake, mistaking it
for a stick; i know that people are very ignorant and
superstitious about snakes. ( see locals predicting instant death).
I know few are any good at all at identifying snakes, let alone a hypothetical one being thrashed about in the rain
for a couple of seconds. Yet they could ID it as deadly,
and believe " Paul" a holy man.
It would be hoot to reenact for court, see who believes it.
Speaking of court, if you are on trial best hope the jury
doesn't think as you, deciding to believe the prosecution
despite any and all evidence.
I'm guessing you see no issues with " noahs ark" either
I know that there's no vipers in that island; I know
vipers do not "cling" when they bite; I know it absurd to
think anyone would carry about a snake, mistaking it
for a stick; i know that people are very ignorant and
superstitious about snakes. ( see locals predicting instant death).
I know few are any good at all at identifying snakes, let alone a hypothetical one being thrashed about in the rain
for a couple of seconds. Yet they could ID it as deadly,
and believe " Paul" a holy man.
It would be hoot to reenact for court, see who believes it.
Speaking of court, if you are on trial best hope the jury
doesn't think as you, deciding to believe the prosecution
despite any and all evidence.
I'm guessing you see no issues with " noahs ark" either
Audie
Veteran Member
It does not say to be convinced your readin' is infallible
when all ( all) relevant evidence shows you are wrong.
For lo, such is the foolishness of faith in one's own great pride and arrogance.
I dont dismiss "god" for lack of evidence. I'm not
a infallible, after all. I do dismiss things that can be proven false. To do otherwise is foolish lack of understanding
ar best, gross intellectual dishonesty and disrespect at worst.
It's certainly interesting. It's also of unknown authorship.
So is self-serving delusion grounded in willful ignorance. Your point?
"Phony" isn't the word I would use. Paul's message is the same as the story of the "serpent"/snake with respect to Genesis 3:4. The snake story was that if you brake God's Commandments you will not die. The consequences are the same, for "everybody will die for their own iniquities/sins" (Jeremiah 31:30). The only change in an instance, blinking of an eye, is if one is standing under a nuclear bomb, the perishable will perish.
Tomef
Well-Known Member
Only if you take the immediate context to be the only context, and leave out the wider influences of the intellectual space Paul was writing in. The Hellenic/Hebraic distinction is where the comparison between spiritual and human wisdom comes from. The ‘natural’ man and ‘natural’ wisdom aren't concepts that originated in the bible, and didn’t just appear out of nowhere or as handy phrases. Paul is comparing Greek thought (and the need for ‘wisdom’ as elsewhere in the chapter) with what he calls spiritual realities. Paul’s letter and the NT in general is influenced by Greek philosophy and Platonism in particular, one of the things that makes it distinct from the OT. When the OT was written, reason in the technical, philosophical sense had not yet entered history, hence there was no need for the same kind of distinction. In Paul’s day is was necessary as Greek thought was as much a part of the social milieu across the Roman Empire as Hebraic thought was in Jerusalem.
Lack of understanding comes from being among the "wicked"/lawless (Daniel 12:10). The Moslems have enough faith to blow themselves up for a hoped for 72 virgins, which by the way, there aren't that many virgins to go around. The JWs, the Amish, as well as others. have faith that they are all among the 144,000 of Revelation. Sorry, but there are many more JWs and Amish than there are 144,000 available spots. I would suggest that they take remedial math, but the schools of today use modern math, whereas apparently 1 + 1 doesn't necessarily equal 2.
Daniel 12:9-10 9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Sorry, I will add the context for those without a bible to look it up. Peter, Paul and Judas (Zech 11:12-13) were chosen by the LORD per Zechariah 11, and Peter and Paul, were called "Favor" and "Cords", and were the two shepherds taken to "pasture" the "flock (Christian church) doomed for slaughter".(Zechariah 11:7). Paul was the "false prophet" of Revelation 16 & 20:10, but one of the "false prophets" so well described in Matthew 7:12-15. The approximately 2 billion Christians would be just part of the "many" led down the wide path to destruction per Matthew 7:12. Other false prophets would be the imaginary Muhammad, from the imaginary Mecca of the 6th century, which number around 1.5 billion, to followers of the false prophet Marx, and his communist and Marxist Progressives of the U.S., numbering around 1.4 billion from China alone.
Daniel 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.