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Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No. A few land species? No. We don't find it.
I have to correct you here. It was not just two, but in the last 10,000 years the population of African cheetahs dropped to the point that there were less than ten breeding cheetahs alive for a while. That is coming to the brink of extinction and teetering on the edge for an incredibly long time. But guess what happens when a population gets that low? As you pointed out it leaves a massive population bottleneck. And the cheetahs are a perfect example of how we know that there was no flood. They would be the norm. Not the extremely rare exception. Any two cheetahs picked at random will be more closely related to each other than you are to your own siblings. Think of mating with your brother or sisters squared. It also makes organ transplants very easy. The easiest organ to transplant is skin and skin transplants from one cheetah to another almost never show rejection.

Which leads to one of my favorite 'proof" against the Noah's Ark myth. The fact that it is a urban legend when you hear tales of people waking up in an ice filled bathtub in a hotel on the seedy side of town is proof that there was no flood. If there was one we would be like the cheetahs and your organs could be used in anyone else. No endless searching for a person whose organs one would not immediately reject.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is an unsupported claim.
Thanks for clearing that up.

But since believers disagree with each other, is that because the Spirit tells them different things, just for mischief?

Or does the Spirit have a speech impediment, or speak only in koine Greek, or is inclined to mumble, so it's hard to understand?

How does that work?
 

Unfettered

A striving disciple of Jesus Christ
Thanks for clearing that up.
SZ's post didn't indicate he was after clarity, so I didn't offer any. :)
But since believers disagree with each other, is that because the Spirit tells them different things, just for mischief?

Or does the Spirit have a speech impediment, or speak only in koine Greek, or is inclined to mumble, so it's hard to understand?

How does that work?
Are you asking, or "asking"?
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Thanks for clearing that up.

But since believers disagree with each other, is that because the Spirit tells them different things, just for mischief?

Or does the Spirit have a speech impediment, or speak only in koine Greek, or is inclined to mumble, so it's hard to understand?

How does that work?

Christians accuse other Christians of not being "real Christians" and persistently bicker with one another about how to accurately interpret the Bible. They want unbelievers to be saved, yet they can't even agree on what the Bible says about the criteria of salvation, which is a fundamental tenet of Christianity.

For example, Calvinism vs. Arminianism is an ongoing debate among them. Some of them believe that salvation is unconditional, while others do not. And yet other Christians believe that speaking in tongues or baptism are required for salvation. Most Christians claim to have "spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit," which enables them to properly understand the Bible. However, they have completely different scriptural interpretations that contradict one another and adhere to church doctrines that contradict each other. They all quote the Bible in their attempts to defend their version of Christianity, but it is quite obvious that their beliefs, as well as their diverse scriptural interpretations and church doctrines about salvation, are undoubtedly contradictory.
 

Ajax

Active Member
I know God and God knows me!
:laughing::laughing: You are pompous man, aren't you?
No one knows God, not even Jesus.
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." Mat 24:36

By the way, it's the third time I'm asking for your reply to my question if you support God's commands in the OT, that people must kill disobedient children and those working on Saturdays, also if you agree that slaves can be bought and used as property (inherited by owner's children).
Lack of response from you clearly means that the Bible is not 100% correct as you claim. Just to remind you though that the omniscient God can not change.
 
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Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 John 2:27

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



That is Absolutely True. It is Impossible to Understand the Holy Scriptures Without Revelation from Elohim/God. Other people cannot make you see the Truth, although they can guide you in the Right Direction to obtain the Truth from Elohim/God.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is an unsupported claim.
No, it was not. When I responded to your post it copied the whole post. You can still read it. There is no support for your post within it.

In a debate if you cannot support a claim and refuse to after someone points it out that is the same as you admitting that you were wrong.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
SZ's post didn't indicate he was after clarity, so I didn't offer any. :)
Are you asking, or "asking"?
It's the notion of the Spirit you mentioned. I'm asking how it works, such that it results in so much disagreement between its believers.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why would I, as a Christian, give up that "all-knowing" attitude?
If some disagree with the above or consider what I say to be disrespectful, that is of no concern to me.
I won't respond to such nonsense as your clear misunderstandings of the Bible.
You and he just don't know the cause behind people's lawful and decent behavior.
I don't care if you think that my supposed "condescension" is a "good look".
I have stated what I know to be true. They are not "assumptions
If reality is defined as "the world external to self", you are in very serious trouble! :laughing:
I am really not interested in your opinions.
I know the truth
You're arrogant ("I know the truth"), defiant ("I am really not interested in your opinion"), indifferent to the way you are perceived ("If some disagree with the above or consider what I say to be disrespectful, that is of no concern to me"), and appear to be at war with the other participants in this thread. You probably consider yours a religion of love.

I'm still waiting for your apology to the "fools" you've gratuitously offended with your scripture, but that won't happen, will it, because you have "God" in your corner. You KNOW you're right and don't care what others think. You don't see the atheistic humanists here posting like that, and there's reason for that.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
You're arrogant ("I know the truth"), defiant ("I am really not interested in your opinion"), indifferent to the way you are perceived ("If some disagree with the above or consider what I say to be disrespectful, that is of no concern to me"), and appear to be at war with the other participants in this thread. You probably consider yours a religion of love.

I'm still waiting for your apology to the "fools" you've gratuitously offended with your scripture, but that won't happen, will it, because you have "God" in your corner. You KNOW you're right and don't care what others think. You don't see the atheistic humanists here posting like that, and there's reason for that.

Well said, in my opinion. However, I'm sure it will go in one ear and out the other, and he will probably attempt to defend his disdainful behavior again.

I'm not a Christian anymore, but I still think his condescending and pompous attitude is a terrible witness to his Christian faith. The primary objective of Christianity is to spread the gospel and make disciples, but who would want to convert to a religion with followers like that? It's as if he has never heard of the commandments to love his neighbor as he loves himself and to treat others the way he'd like to be treated. Even if he considers us to be his enemies, he is called to love his enemies, to pray for his enemies, and to do good to his enemies. His light has faded and his salt has lost its flavor (Matt. 5:1–16).

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

Although I like Gandhi's quote, I like this quote by Brendan Manning even better: "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." It's spot on.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well said, in my opinion.
Thank you. I hope others feel the same.

I'd like to see more of us being assertive about condemning certain behaviors common with the faithful. Christianity marginalizes and demonizes people to promote itself, especially atheists and LGBTQ+. It threatens hellfire. In America, it is working to remove women's rights to control their bodies and lives. Many of the faithful are antagonistic to science and reason.

Worse, so many of its adherents think that Christianity's ancient morals define morality and define those of us outside of it in the most demeaning of terms.

These are all destructive doctrines and behaviors.

Once, those that objected were silenced. Today, the genie has been released from the bottle. Today, we have a chance to answer back.
However, I'm sure it will go in one ear and out the other, and he will probably attempt to defend his disdainful behavior again.
I hope not, but history suggests that you are correct.
I still think his condescending and pompous attitude is a terrible witness to his Christian faith.
I doubt that that matters to him. He's been quite clear that he doesn't care what message he sends or what anybody else thinks about it. As you've seen, I tried to encourage him to reconsider what message he wants to send both for himself and the rest of us. It can't be pleasant to incur the disdain of and repudiation by so many people, but expressing his Christian orientation is a chance for those with other worldviews and values to offer an alternative and explain how it is more just and more constructive.

This is the process that will eventually result in Christianity, especially in its American rendering, joining the other religions in being pockets of believers who affect only influence volunteers and losing a bit of that arrogance and self-righteousness. It's not going to come from within. We can't expect such people to respect other ideologies, especially when they're being taught that all others are fools, and they feel comfortable sharing that sentiment.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Come, let us reason together.

A world exists external to you. You know about it through your senses. It can be called 'nature' or 'objective reality' (&c).

Out there is what scientists, and archaeologists, and many other thoughtful people study in order to understand what reality is.

Accurate statements about that world are called 'true'. This means that if you want to know whether a given proposition about reality is true or not, you can check reality and see what answer you find there.

Thus we find in the bible a description of the "Genesis flood". In that report all living land things except a single boatload died by drowning.

If the story is true then there will be real evidence of it out there. We can roughly date the story by working out when and where woodworking technology might make the building of the ark possible. We can very generously allow it would have to have happened in the last 7,000 years.

Such a worldwide flood would necessarily leave a geological flood layer all over all continents and islands and the sea floor and that layer would necessarily be no more than 7,000 years old. Is there such a layer? No, there isn't. Is there anything resembling it? No, there isn't.

In the story, the flood covered the tops of the tallest mountains something like 20 feet / 6 m deep. The tallest mountain 7,000 years ago was Mount Everest. Today its top is 29,029 ft / 8,848 m above mean sea level. The Himalayas rise at a steady but very small rate due to tectonic pressure, so let's say 7,000 years ago Everest was only 28, 870 feet / 8,800 m high. How much more water than presently exists on earth would be necessary to cover the top of Everest 20 feet deep? Answer: more than 1.1 billion cubic miles. Question: where is that water now?

In the story, Noah took one, two or seven breeding pairs of each animal species aboard the ark. That means that all living land species are descended from a very small breeding group that existed no more than 7,000 years ago. If it happened, such an event can be detected in the genes of modern animals (called, amongst other things, a "genetic bottleneck"). And if it happened, such a genetic bottleneck, pointing to that date, will be found in the genes of all modern land species. Do we find such genetic bottlenecks in all land species? No. A few land species? No. We don't find it.

So from the evidence of reality we can conclude the story is not factual.

We can also trace the story back to Sumer, in Mesopotamia, It existed, at the least, around 2,500 BCE, which as you know is about 1,000 years before the bible God appears in any records. The Semitic Akkadians acquired it, and it became a story known in the Babylonian world, and you may recall that Abraham was said to be from Ur, a Sumerian city with a substantial Akkadian population. In that story it was the Sumerian gods who sent the Flood.

So from the evidence of history we can again conclude that the story is not factual. However, we might also be tempted to hypothesize that it had its origins in a very substantial flood on the Tigris or the Euphrates at some time in the far past. (The earliest evidence of the Sumerians in Mesopotamia puts them there by 5,000 BCE.)

Reality is useful like that. It can give you insights into what's true and what's not.

The Bible is not a scientific textbook. It is a book that teaches people spiritual truths, not scientific facts. There would be no point in turning to scientific texts for spiritual answers, correct?
 
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