Unintelligent Design

[sun rise]

Just for the sake of discussion: Most of the arguments about intelligent design are really about the implementation of that design and the speed of that implementation. One can posit a wonderful design and then complain about the iterative nature of the implementation and the speed of implementation.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Another aspect of unintelligent design is the nastier side of human nature. Why would a loving God build in a tendency for selfishness, cruelty and violence? Wouldn't a loving God have made humans basically nice and compassionate, not inclined to commit crime, start wars, commit genocide, and so on?

So the question isn't just "Why did God allow the Holocaust?", it's also "Why did God create a creature capable of such barbarity in the first place?"

 

[Skwim]

Just for the sake of discussion: Most of the arguments about intelligent design are really about the implementation of that design and the speed of that implementation. One can posit a wonderful design and then complain about the iterative nature of the implementation and the speed of implementation.

This has certainly not been my experience with ID at all. Just as with it's other face, creationism, almost all that I've seen involve attacking evolution. Little if any attention is given the design or its implementation. At most it comes down to a given: on such and such a date god created these organisms and those organisms. After all, other than making the claim that "god did it," what else is there to say about it?

 

[averageJOE]

Intelligent Design is one of those creationist terms used to describe how earth's life came about. Not through the hit-and-miss process of evolution, but "by the deliberate hand of god." God being the intelligent designer. But just how intelligent were these designs? Could they have been better? My guess is that the creationist will say, "No. Being designed by god, by default they're perfect." In contrast, unintelligent design would be something not created by god, and would more likely than not have flaws, glitches, and deficiencies of some sort. Flaws, glitches, and deficiencies that that may even be detrimental. So, are there any such less than perfect designs; traits that point away from an intelligent designer?

Having stumbled across an article in Wikipedia, I believe there are. The article points out four such examples in humans. Although it was written to describe traits inherited through natural selection that are detrimental to the organism, it also functions as an argument against intelligent design and an intelligent designer. If you're going to insist that god did it all then you have to admit he could have done a better job.

Eyes
One example in humans of unintelligent design is the eyes. The eyes perceive images by receiving light in the retina. The retina sends electrical signals to the brain through the optic nerve and people see images. The optic nerve, however, is connected to the retina on the side that receives light, essentially blocking a portion of the eye and giving humans a blind spot.[1] A better structure for the eye would be to have the optic nerve connected to the side of the retina that does not receive the light, such as in cephalopods.[2]

Throat
Another example in humans is the throat. The esophagus, the part of the throat that allows food to travel to the digestive tract, is connected to the pharynx and the larynx, the parts of the throat that allow humans to breathe and talk.[3] Because these parts are connected, choking can become a major issue. Food and other objects can sometimes get stuck in the throat blocking the air flow and not allowing much needed oxygen to enter the lungs and the rest of the body.[4] If the parts were not connected and did not share a portion of their travel paths, choking would not be an issue, as it isn’t for most other animals in the world.

Teeth
The teeth present a third example in humans alone of unintelligent design. When human beings first started developing larger brains, they had to evolve larger skulls to be able to store the larger brain. Evolution caused the skull cavity to become larger by adding bone from the jaw. In essence, the jaw became smaller to support a larger brain, but the teeth that were in the jaw did not become smaller in size.[5] The amount of teeth that used to fit in the human mouth no longer fits. Because humans generally don’t have room for all 32 teeth, problems arise when all 32 teeth grow in. Wisdom teeth are generally the most problematic due a smaller jaw size. Wisdom teeth, when growing into a jaw that no longer has room, can damage neighboring teeth or even cause serious infections of the mouth.[6] If the human jaw was larger in size there would be plenty of room inside the mouth for all 32 teeth to be present at the same time and the problems that are persistent with wisdom teeth would be less of a threat.

Spinal cord
Another issue that evolved from having a larger brain is that parts of the human body cannot heal properly. The spinal cord, for instance, cannot ever properly heal if it is damaged. Because neurons have become so specialized through evolution, they are no longer able to regrow once they reach their mature state. If the spinal cord is injured, even slightly bruised, the neurons cannot repair themselves like other body cells can. The spinal cord, if broken, will never repair itself and will result in permanent paralysis. If neuron cells had not become so specialized in the spinal cord, then they would be able to repair themselves after an injury.[7]
Link​

For more examples of unintelligent design see HERE

Here is the creationist answer:
God designed humans perfect. Then Adam and Eve sinned then he re-designed us to die.

 

[rusra02]

Exactly.

But one need not grow old before falling victim to disease. So whatever god's purpose was in creating us is, he doesn't much care if disease incapacitates the lives of people for years on end.

So what if little Johnny must live his life crippled with polio, it's just part of god's plan.

Or that little Maria Robles was born a cripple.

Maria Robles, from Nogales, Mexico, is 8 years old.
She has "brittle bones" disease. ​

it's just part of god's plan.

So what's he waiting for? He's had thousands of years to "reverse that process" and so far nada. Millions have gone to their graves living insufferable lives.

There are several good reasons why God has been patiently waiting his appointed time, IMO. One reason is mentioned at 2 Peter 3:9; "Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." I believe God is allowing time for the good news of his Kingdom to reach as far as Maria and Johnny, and millions of others suffering in this world.

 

[sun rise]

This has certainly not been my experience with ID at all. Just as with it's other face, creationism, almost all that I've seen involve attacking evolution. Little if any attention is given the design or its implementation. At most it comes down to a given: on such and such a date god created these organisms and those organisms. After all, other than making the claim that "god did it," what else is there to say about it?

I was semi-joking with my prior post. The serious part is that there's an assumption from a Western religious perspective about the nature of God which is not universally true - the old man sitting on a cloud implicit definition.

And I'd bet you are dealing mostly with Christians. Eastern thought has a different perspective such as

In an article titled By Design: Not all who are sympathetic to the idea of intelligent design are creationists, Low has written that Buddhism neither affirms nor denies the existence of God, nor does it deny the general theory of evolution. Rather, the neo-Darwinian view of evolution is wrong since it denies that intelligence and creativity play a part in evolution
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Human_Nature:_A_Zen_Buddhist_Looks_at_Evolution

Or from one Hindu perspective: An intelligent designer, of course, guides the mutations and selective adaptation that gives forth new species, but the designer is the creation itself and beyond it--hardly a supernatural being enthroned upon a cloud. http://www.hafsite.org/media/pr/faith-ancient-hinduism-enlightens-modern-notions-evolution

 

[rusra02]

Here is the creationist answer:
God designed humans perfect. Then Adam and Eve sinned then he re-designed us to die.

God did not redesign us to die. He carried out his word to Adam recorded at Genesis 2:17; "But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” Fortunately for us, God provided a means to save us from death. I believe what Romans 6:23 says; "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

[Robert.Evans]

Intelligent Design is one of those creationist terms used to describe how earth's life came about. Not through the hit-and-miss process of evolution, but "by the deliberate hand of god." God being the intelligent designer. But just how intelligent were these designs? Could they have been better? My guess is that the creationist will say, "No. Being designed by god, by default they're perfect." In contrast, unintelligent design would be something not created by god, and would more likely than not have flaws, glitches, and deficiencies of some sort. Flaws, glitches, and deficiencies that that may even be detrimental. So, are there any such less than perfect designs; traits that point away from an intelligent designer?

It evolves

Having stumbled across an article in Wikipedia, I believe there are. The article points out four such examples in humans. Although it was written to describe traits inherited through natural selection that are detrimental to the organism, it also functions as an argument against intelligent design and an intelligent designer. If you're going to insist that god did it all then you have to admit he could have done a better job.

Eyes
One example in humans of unintelligent design is the eyes. The eyes perceive images by receiving light in the retina. The retina sends electrical signals to the brain through the optic nerve and people see images. The optic nerve, however, is connected to the retina on the side that receives light, essentially blocking a portion of the eye and giving humans a blind spot.[1] A better structure for the eye would be to have the optic nerve connected to the side of the retina that does not receive the light, such as in cephalopods.[2]

Do you know why there is a blind spot in humans? Come on, think now. What is he trying to show us?

Throat
Another example in humans is the throat. The esophagus, the part of the throat that allows food to travel to the digestive tract, is connected to the pharynx and the larynx, the parts of the throat that allow humans to breathe and talk.[3] Because these parts are connected, choking can become a major issue. Food and other objects can sometimes get stuck in the throat blocking the air flow and not allowing much needed oxygen to enter the lungs and the rest of the body.[4] If the parts were not connected and did not share a portion of their travel paths, choking would not be an issue, as it isn’t for most other animals in the world.

Teeth
The teeth present a third example in humans alone of unintelligent design. When human beings first started developing larger brains, they had to evolve larger skulls to be able to store the larger brain. Evolution caused the skull cavity to become larger by adding bone from the jaw. In essence, the jaw became smaller to support a larger brain, but the teeth that were in the jaw did not become smaller in size.[5] The amount of teeth that used to fit in the human mouth no longer fits. Because humans generally don’t have room for all 32 teeth, problems arise when all 32 teeth grow in. Wisdom teeth are generally the most problematic due a smaller jaw size. Wisdom teeth, when growing into a jaw that no longer has room, can damage neighboring teeth or even cause serious infections of the mouth.[6] If the human jaw was larger in size there would be plenty of room inside the mouth for all 32 teeth to be present at the same time and the problems that are persistent with wisdom teeth would be less of a threat.

Spinal cord
Another issue that evolved from having a larger brain is that parts of the human body cannot heal properly. The spinal cord, for instance, cannot ever properly heal if it is damaged. Because neurons have become so specialized through evolution, they are no longer able to regrow once they reach their mature state. If the spinal cord is injured, even slightly bruised, the neurons cannot repair themselves like other body cells can. The spinal cord, if broken, will never repair itself and will result in permanent paralysis. If neuron cells had not become so specialized in the spinal cord, then they would be able to repair themselves after an injury.[7]
Link

Amazing don't you think, that all these things can evolve from random mutations without a blind bit of help, just pure luck. Even natural selection itself must come about through blind chance in order to take the randomness out of evolution in the first place. That is one massive stroke of luck isn't it! It's almost as if it has some target that it is aiming for.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Wiki also says:
1.
"In the human female, a fertilized egg can implant into the fallopian tube, cervix

or ovary rather than the uterus causing an ectopic pregnancy. The existence of a

cavity between the ovary and the fallopian tube could indicate a flawed design in

the female reproductive system. "
Or it could mean that the design does not work well in a physical body.

2.
"The breathing reflex is stimulated not directly by the absence of oxygen but

rather indirectly by the presence of carbon dioxide. A result is that, at high

altitudes, oxygen deprivation can occur in unadapted individuals who do not

consciously increase their breathing rate."
Interesting. Of course we are not supposed to climb mountains. They are for the

gods.

3.
"Barely used nerves and muscles, such as the plantaris muscle of the foot,[8] that are missing in part of the human population and are routinely harvested as spare parts if needed during operations. Another example is the muscles that move the ears, which some people can learn to control to a degree, but serve no purpose in any case ([1] p. 328)."
Why does this mean there is no God? Oh, I see, because God is perfect. But that would mean the sun would never go down and I would never get older, etc, so not an argument really. These are all based on the God would do it perfect routine. Which then begs the question, why would there be a heaven???

 

[Skwim]

Here is the creationist answer:
God designed humans perfect. Then Adam and Eve sinned then he re-designed us to die.

and suffer. Some for their entire lives.

There are several good reasons why God has been patiently waiting his appointed time, IMO. One reason is mentioned at 2 Peter 3:9; "Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." I believe God is allowing time for the good news of his Kingdom to reach as far as Maria and Johnny, and millions of others suffering in this world.

So, is this "good news" supposed to cure them? I've yet to see it happen. Meanwhile, they suffer and eventually die, as do millions of others. Personally, such inaction comes across as sadistic: Inflict innocent people with crippling diseases and let them live that way until they die. What would you think of a person whole did this to animals? Intelligent design? Hardly.

I was semi-joking with my prior post. The serious part is that there's an assumption from a Western religious perspective about the nature of God which is not universally true - the old man sitting on a cloud implicit definition.

And I'd bet you are dealing mostly with Christians.

Yes I am because intelligent design as opposed to evolution (see the OP) is a Christian concept. In any case, no matter what form this intelligent designer takes, he made a lot of unintelligent decisions when he created life, and in particular man.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Wiki:
"Almost all animals and plants synthesize their own vitamin C, but humans cannot because the gene for this enzyme is defective (Pseudogene ΨGULO).[9]"
So you are telling me we have to eat of the fruit of the tree?!

 

[Robert.Evans]

Wiki:
"

• The existence of unnecessary wings in flightless birds, e.g. ostriches ([1]p. 326)."

Proof that there is no god?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Wiki:
"The route of the recurrent laryngeal nerve is such that it travels from the brain to the larynx by looping around the aortic arch."

This is a good one. Poor design so it must have wandered around until it said, whoopie, found it! Or perhaps it said, Sod it, this will do.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Wiki:
""Poor design" is consistent with the predictions of the scientific theory of evolution by means of natural selection. "

Yeah; just look at a human being for poor design. Spare legs hanging where there not needed, spare ears that don't do anything, arms hanging off your back that have to be amputated at birth. Terrible design. Nothing balanced about it. Who the heck could see any design in that!

 

[Robert.Evans]

So, is this "good news" supposed to cure them? I've yet to see it happen. Meanwhile, they suffer and eventually die, as do millions of others. Personally, such inaction comes across as sadistic: Inflict innocent people with crippling diseases and let them live that way until they die.

Who said we were innocent?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Yes I am because intelligent design as opposed to evolution (see the OP) is a Christian concept. In any case, no matter what form this intelligent designer takes, he made a lot of unintelligent decisions when he created life, and in particular man.

I agree. Of course, if it is evolution, then BOY are we lucky!!!

 

[Robert.Evans]

it's just part of god's plan.

It is indeed. We answer for our sins. So be good. There you have been told. Of course, you might complain about him, but if you do, he might be a bit angry at that when you see him. Just thought i'd mention it.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Exactly.

But one need not grow old before falling victim to disease. So whatever god's purpose was in creating us is, he doesn't much care if disease incapacitates the lives of people for years on end.

So what if little Johnny must live his life crippled with polio, it's just part of god's plan.

Or that little Maria Robles was born a cripple.

Maria Robles, from Nogales, Mexico, is 8 years old.
She has "brittle bones" disease. ​

it's just part of god's plan.

So what's he waiting for? He's had thousands of years to "reverse that process" and so far nada. Millions have gone to their graves living insufferable lives.

Either way, you take a leap of faith. Either they answer for who they are, or they are just plain unlucky and the rest of us not. I think the first is better. At least they know it is for a greater good rather than poor luck and then die. Wow! Great eh. And there's people like Dawkins a millionair and he could be sharing his money with them. Though he's an evolutionist, so, survival of the fittest I guess, and two fingers to them.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Here is the creationist answer:
God designed humans perfect. Then Adam and Eve sinned then he re-designed us to die.

If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have sinned.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I would have designed better, if I had unlimited power. Functional wings would be quite handy, for instance.

Or what about eight arms like a spider? Imagine Bach fugues if he had been a arachnid

Ciao

- viole

Yeah, what about perfection and living forever. Oh, hang on, that's heaven. So earth mustn't be about that then, eh.