Unintelligent Design

[Robert.Evans]

If you're going to insist that god did it all then you have to admit he could have done a better job.

No you don't. You would only have to admit that if you thought of a God that was suppsoed to do a perfect job and clearly didn't. But what pray then is heaven for? Erm, fine God, turns out you did such a good job down here, we aren't going to bother doing what you say and going to heaven. Ta ta!

What is this, rocket science?!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The serious part is that there's an assumption from a Western religious perspective about the nature of God which is not universally true - the old man sitting on a cloud implicit definition.

ID is primarily associated with the Christian God.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_design

 

[Robert.Evans]

Who says we are the desired final result? And who says that we have reached a point in evolution for there to be an accomplished goal yet? And why does anything have to be "perfect"? Can the goal just not be life experiences itself? Maybe there are "imperfections" to give things to overcome?

I have never met anyone who believes in theistic evolution to have ever claimed that we humans, on this particular space rock, are the desired end result of anything.

You now what your doing there don't you - thinking.

I agree, by the way.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

You would only have to admit that if you thought of a God that was suppsoed to do a perfect job and clearly didn't.

So as well as being an absentee landlord God is also a dodgy builder.

 

[Robert.Evans]

And the traits were not designed as such, but rather fostered and then left to evolve.

That is a nice way of putting it- whether you mean it or not.

 

[Draka]

You now what your doing there don't you - thinking.

I agree, by the way.

I've tried breaking that habit. It's a hard one to break.

 

[viole]

Yeah, what about perfection and living forever. Oh, hang on, that's heaven. So earth mustn't be about that then, eh.

It depends. When you assert that we are intelligently designed, are you referring to our physical structure here on earth or to the design of something more metaphysical, like souls and stuff?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Skwim]

It depends. When you assert that we are intelligently designed, are you referring to our physical structure here on earth or to the design of something more metaphysical, like souls and stuff?

Ciao

- viole

Be nice to know who you're responding to, but the unintelligent design I'm referring to is physical and mental. Not souls and stuff.

 

[dust1n]

Who says we are the desired final result? And who says that we have reached a point in evolution for there to be an accomplished goal yet? And why does anything have to be "perfect"? Can the goal just not be life experiences itself? Maybe there are "imperfections" to give things to overcome?

How does a child overcome Tay-Sachs disease? What sort of goal is the life experience of itself? If we are just a step do a final result, it would suggest the ID is incapable of producing desired results without millions upon billions of entities suffering, or simply doesn't mind that human suffering is just a necessary condition.

I have never met anyone who believes in theistic evolution to have ever claimed that we humans, on this particular space rock, are the desired end result of anything.

...Really? So it's pretty common that theistic evolutionists believe that humans hold no particular goal or aim or value in the eyes of God, opposed to a rock or a vacuum?

 

[dust1n]

Hi Skwim,

I believe that God designed humans for He is an intelligent designer.

Thanks

So is it an act of intelligence when God designs a human to die before the age 1?

 

[Sapiens]

...
In an article titled By Design: Not all who are sympathetic to the idea of intelligent design are creationists, Low has written that Buddhism neither affirms nor denies the existence of God, nor does it deny the general theory of evolution. Rather, the neo-Darwinian view of evolution is wrong since it denies that intelligence and creativity play a part in evolution
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Human_Nature:_A_Zen_Buddhist_Looks_at_Evolution

...

If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.”
― Dalai Lama XIV, The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality

 

[dust1n]

I find time and again that the claimed "design flaws" in people and animals are found to be perfect designs not fully understood, much like the so-called vestigial organs once thought useless and routinely removed; or the so-called junk DNA found not to be junk after all.

Alright. So why should I not consider Tay-Sachs disease a design flaw?

 

[dust1n]

I think there is a big difference between how humans are (disease-ridden and dying), with how God purposes humans to be. As Romans 5:12 says, death came from Adam's sin and spread to all mankind. Growing old and falling victim to disease is part of that death at work in us. God has promised to reverse that process, and I believe he will. (Isaiah 33:24, 25:8)

What causes Tay-Sachs disease?

Tay-Sachs disease is caused by a mutation in the HEXA gene. A genetic mutation is a permanent alteration in the DNA sequence that makes up a gene. It causes one or more processes of the body to not work properly.

A mutated HEXA gene results in the body not producing an enzyme called Hexosaminidase-A (Hex-A). Without this enzyme, a fatty substance called GM2 ganglioside builds up in the cells of the brain and nerves, and stops them working normally, eventually destroying them.

Both parents have to be carriers of a HEXA mutation to be at risk of having a child with Tay-Sachs disease. If both parents are carriers, their children will have a 25% chance of developing the condition.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Tay-Sachs-disease/Pages/Introduction.aspx


Did Adam's sin also cause genetic mutations? Or did the Guy who designed DNA cause them?

 

[Robert.Evans]

It depends. When you assert that we are intelligently designed, are you referring to our physical structure here on earth or to the design of something more metaphysical, like souls and stuff?

Ciao

- viole

Who said we are intelligently designed? I have no problem with evolution per se, accept I don't think that natural selection can, on its own, produce what we see.

 

[viole]

Who said we are intelligently designed? I have no problem with evolution per se, accept I don't think that natural selection can, on its own, produce what we see.

What we see, for instance us, is not only the product of biology and nice looking DNA. There are millions of contingencies that made yourself possible.

To make an example. We would not be here if a giant asteroid did not kill the dinos 65 millions years ago.

Do you think that God arranged things in such a way that caused two asteroids on the belt between Mars and Jupiter to collide in such a fine tuned way so that one of them landed, eventually, many millions years later on earth, to kill our main competitors after many millions of years ruling the planet, so that a minuscule rodent looking like creature could get out of its tiny hole, prosper and evolve to eventually become us?

Really?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Robert.Evans]

What we see, for instance us, is not only the product of biology and nice looking DNA. There are millions of contingencies that made yourself possible.

To make an example. We would not be here if a giant asteroid did not kill the dinos 65 millions years ago.

Do you think that God arranged things in such a way that caused two asteroids on the belt between Mars and Jupiter to collide in such a fine tuned way so that one of them landed, eventually, many millions years later on earth, to kill our main competitors after many millions of years ruling the planet, so that a minuscule rodent looking like creature could get out of its tiny hole, prosper and evolve to eventually become us?

Really?

Ciao

- viole

I think it is an evolving consciousness. Do you think it was luck? Really?

 

[Robert.Evans]

in such a fine tuned way

Makes you think doesn't it?

 

[Robert.Evans]

We carve an idol out of fear, and we call it God

Your signature. It is not wrong. When I think about it, it is so interesting. Maybe one day I will find someone who is likeminded. There is so much to discuss. It links so well. We Him, then He us. Wonderful!

 

[viole]

I think it is an evolving consciousness. Do you think it was luck? Really?

The collision of two asteroids is evolving consciousness?

What?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Makes you think doesn't it?

Yes, I lost my sleep imagining the odds of those two asteroids colliding at the right angle and with the right momentum so that we can exist.

Ciao

- viole