Unity in Submission to God’s Counsels.

[TransmutingSoul]

I am not interested in Unity. I believe strong and robust diversity as the life blood of humanity. If that is gone, human beings will be headed for extinction. The only issue is how to keep diversity thriving while decreasing conflicts and still fostering multi-dimensional cooperation among the diversified stakeholders on common problems.

Then unity in diversity may be the path, "as to keep diversity thriving while decreasing conflicts and still fostering multi-dimensional cooperation among the diversified stakeholders on common problems, will require a unified effort.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Here‘s the thing though. Yes, Abdul-Baha confirms Samuel is a Prophet and a recipient of divine revelation but very different compared to the Manifestations.

So as Abdul Baha said that the minor Prophets did have divine revelations, then we cannot rely upon Mírza Abú'l-Fadl’s summation that the books Joshua, Samuel, Kings and Chronicles "...which contain no statement, sign or hint of being divine speech and therefore should not be considered as revelation as it conflicts with Abdul-Baha’s statement and the Guardian above has stated to turn to the Master’s Words first.

No, Abdul-Baha did not say that the minor prophets received divine revelations, thus Mírza Abú'l-Fadl’s summation is correct.

Question.—How many kinds of Prophets are there?

Answer.—Universally, the Prophets are of two kinds. One are the independent Prophets Who are followed; the other kind are not independent and are themselves followers.

The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.

The other Prophets are followers and promoters, for they are branches and not independent; they receive the bounty of the independent Prophets, and they profit by the light of the Guidance of the universal Prophets. They are like the moon, which is not luminous and radiant in itself, but receives its light from the sun.

The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law. Their appearance is like the season of spring, which arrays all earthly beings in a new garment, and gives them a new life.

With regard to the second sort of Prophets who are followers, these also promote the Law of God, make known the Religion of God, and proclaim His word. Of themselves they have no power and might, except what they receive from the independent Prophets.

43: THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS, Some Answered Questions, pp. 164-165

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, Abdul-Baha confirms Samuel is a Prophet and a recipient of divine revelation but very different compared to the Manifestations.

Did he, or didn't he? By what the Bible says it sounds like the God of Israel was communicating to the prophets.

If God does communicate to the "minor" prophets, are there minor prophets in the other religions? And if so, who were they?

If not, then that's just one more thing that the Bible says is true, and the Baha'is say is not true.

Can you post the quote where Abdul Baha' says that the minor prophets do receive communication from God?

And can you answer this... Which new religion did Abraham start? If he did, how was it different than the on Moses started? And if Baha'is consider Adam and Noah manifestations also, then the same question about them.

"The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law."

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you post the quote where Abdul Baha' says that the minor prophets do receive communication from God?

There is no such quote. #102

 

[Trailblazer]

If God does communicate to the "minor" prophets, are there minor prophets in the other religions? And if so, who were they?

If not, then that's just one more thing that the Bible says is true, and the Baha'is say is not true.

Twelve table talks given by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in ‘Akká

– 1 –

The Three Kinds of Prophets​

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?

Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.

https://www.bahai.org/library/autho...-tablets-extracts-talks/491087709/1#155069811

The Prophets who were followers and promoters (e.g. Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel) were the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God but they did not receive a new revelation from God. All humans can receive inspiration from God but that doesn't make them a universal Manifestation of God.

I believe there were Prophets Whose prophethood was limited to a particular locality, and I think the Qur'an says that Prophets have come to every nation. However, that did not receive a full revelation from God that was for all of humanity.

 

[blü 2]

That's it, to me, plain and simple it is a No.

I see the peace and security of humanity is unattainable, unless and until Unity is firmly established and that unity is not possible while humanity as a majority do not follow the Counsels given by God.

All faiths given of God, do have Counsels given of God, so what are they?

I think the one to start with is Love as in John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

"Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship . . . This goal excelleth every other goal, and this aspiration is the monarch of all aspirations." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

Please discuss in the light that is Love.

Regards Tony

Much as I'm in favor of universal harmony in human society, I have no faith that we're going to bring it about in my time. The UN can't do it ─ the existence of the Security Council is a clear recognition of that/ Though it's better than nothing and has some achievements to its credit, it's still merely standing and watching while Russian invades Ukraine, to take just one relevant instance. Nor could it prevent the US invasion of Grenada (successful) or of Iraq (disastrous).

And if far right people keep getting elected, Putin in Russia, Orbán in Hungary, Lukashenko in Belarus, or a return of Trump in the US, or Bolsinaro in Brazil, then nationalism will remain a foremost factor in international affairs and no one dare proceed without a lavish defense budget. What to do about autocracies like the Chinese Communist Party I have no idea, no plan to offer. Prayer doesn't seem a promising approach either.

In fact I don't think religion is a relevant factor, and indeed might be an impediment. Buddhists get along quite well with the Hindu faith and vice versa ─ with occasional exceptions of course ─ but not so well with the Christian faiths. I suspect it's not irrelevant that the Christian faiths are organized to recognize a central moral authority that will tell you what you can or can't do and back it up with threats of eternal damnation. You'd need to be pretty stupid to volunteer for that, especially if such ideas were alien to your culture and upbringing.

I have my own mantra: try to do no harm and treat other people with decency, respect, inclusion and common sense. One selling point is that inclusion doesn't include tithes. It won't bring about world peace, but it's a place to start if you favor thinking global and acting local.

 

[Trailblazer]

Much as I'm in favor of universal harmony in human society, I have no faith that we're going to bring it about in my time.

No, it won't happen in your time or my time. I think it will happen eventually but not for a very loooooooooooong time.

 

[blü 2]

No, it won't happen in your time or my time. I think it will happen eventually but not for a very loooooooooooong time.

You mean when there's only one of us left?

 

[Ella S.]

I am sort of an anarchist. I can expand, but we have to define power which is half the battle for anarchists.

I've been thinking a lot about power and its relationship with anarchism over the past few months. I'd be interested to hear your perspective.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have my own mantra: try to do no harm and treat other people with decency, respect, inclusion and common sense.

That is great, and that is what we need a lot more of.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You mean when there's only one of us left?

No, long after you and I are dead and buried.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Did he, or didn't he? By what the Bible says it sounds like the God of Israel was communicating to the prophets.

If God does communicate to the "minor" prophets, are there minor prophets in the other religions? And if so, who were they?

If not, then that's just one more thing that the Bible says is true, and the Baha'is say is not true.

Can you post the quote where Abdul Baha' says that the minor prophets do receive communication from God?

And can you answer this... Which new religion did Abraham start? If he did, how was it different than the on Moses started? And if Baha'is consider Adam and Noah manifestations also, then the same question about them.

"The Manifestations of universal Prophethood Who appeared independently are, for example, Abraham, Moses, Christ, Muhammad, the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. But the others who are followers and promoters are like Solomon, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. For the independent Prophets are founders; They establish a new religion and make new creatures of men; They change the general morals, promote new customs and rules, renew the cycle and the Law."

According to Abdul-Baha…

“The Founder of monotheism was Abraham; it is to Him that this concept can be traced, and the belief was current among the Children of Israel, even in the days of Socrates.”

Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá
‘Abdu’l-Bahá

Pause then to reflect upon the difference between the virtues and perfections of Christ and the splendours and effulgences of Bahá’u’lláh, on the one hand, and the virtues of the Prophets of the House of Israel, such as Ezekiel or Samuel, on the other. All were the recipients of divine revelation, but between them there is an immeasurable distance ( SAQ Abdul-Baha)

 

[Vinayaka]

Much as I'm in favor of universal harmony in human society, I have no faith that we're going to bring it about in my time. The UN can't do it ─ the existence of the Security Council is a clear recognition of that/ Though it's better than nothing and has some achievements to its credit, it's still merely standing and watching while Russian invades Ukraine, to take just one relevant instance. Nor could it prevent the US invasion of Grenada (successful) or of Iraq (disastrous).

And if far right people keep getting elected, Putin in Russia, Orbán in Hungary, Lukashenko in Belarus, or a return of Trump in the US, or Bolsinaro in Brazil, then nationalism will remain a foremost factor in international affairs and no one dare proceed without a lavish defense budget. What to do about autocracies like the Chinese Communist Party I have no idea, no plan to offer. Prayer doesn't seem a promising approach either.

In fact I don't think religion is a relevant factor, and indeed might be an impediment. Buddhists get along quite well with the Hindu faith and vice versa ─ with occasional exceptions of course ─ but not so well with the Christian faiths. I suspect it's not irrelevant that the Christian faiths are organized to recognize a central moral authority that will tell you what you can or can't do and back it up with threats of eternal damnation. You'd need to be pretty stupid to volunteer for that, especially if such ideas were alien to your culture and upbringing.

I have my own mantra: try to do no harm and treat other people with decency, respect, inclusion and common sense. One selling point is that inclusion doesn't include tithes. It won't bring about world peace, but it's a place to start if you favor thinking global and acting local.

Insightful post. Thank you. It struck me how 'harmony' is such a better word over 'unity', in my view.

 

[Link]

I've been thinking a lot about power and its relationship with anarchism over the past few months. I'd be interested to hear your perspective.

Salam

We should make a thread about it. Either you start or me. I'll let you decide.

 

[Nakosis]

That's it, to me, plain and simple it is a No.

I see the peace and security of humanity is unattainable, unless and until Unity is firmly established and that unity is not possible while humanity as a majority do not follow the Counsels given by God.

All faiths given of God, do have Counsels given of God, so what are they?

I think the one to start with is Love as in John 15:12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

"Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship . . . This goal excelleth every other goal, and this aspiration is the monarch of all aspirations." Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

Please discuss in the light that is Love.

Regards Tony

Don't see unity being possible with God much neither considering all of the goings on in the Middle East.

 

[Link]

Don't see unity being possible with God much neither considering all of the goings on in the Middle East.

You know I've heard Qassem Sulaimani when his forces would capture ISIS fighters, he would tell them he will be their interceder on the day of judgment so as for them to enter paradise. I use to think it's a hyperbola, but I think he really meant it now.

وَإِنْ طَائِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُوا فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا ۖ فَإِنْ بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الْأُخْرَىٰ فَقَاتِلُوا الَّتِي تَبْغِي حَتَّىٰ تَفِيءَ إِلَىٰ أَمْرِ اللَّهِ ۚ فَإِنْ فَاءَتْ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا بِالْعَدْلِ وَأَقْسِطُوا ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ | If two groups of the faithful fight one another, make peace between them. But if one party of them aggresses against the other, fight the one which aggresses until it returns to Allah’s ordinance. Then, if it returns, make peace between them fairly, and do justice. Indeed Allah loves the just. | Al-Hujuraat : 9

The problem is Gog and Magog have too much control, and it's not until from every high place, they are brought down, that there will be peace:

حَتَّىٰ إِذَا فُتِحَتْ يَأْجُوجُ وَمَأْجُوجُ وَهُمْ مِنْ كُلِّ حَدَبٍ يَنْسِلُونَ | until when Gog and Magog are opened up, and they from every high place come down/descend | Al-Anbiyaa : 96

Till that happens, the wars, are mostly based on manipulation.

In my view, Freemasons and other brother and sister groups, helped Jews form Israel as a part of a global plan and to keep Muslims in subjugation and keep them from uniting back to a Caliphate.

 

[Ella S.]

Salam

We should make a thread about it. Either you start or me. I'll let you decide.

I agree. You have my permission to start a thread and tag me.

 

[Nakosis]

You know I've heard Qassem Sulaimani when his forces would capture ISIS fighters, he would tell them he will be their interceder on the day of judgment so as for them to enter paradise. I use to think it's a hyperbola, but I think he really meant it now.

وَإِنْ طَائِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُوا فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا ۖ فَإِنْ بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الْأُخْرَىٰ فَقَاتِلُوا الَّتِي تَبْغِي حَتَّىٰ تَفِيءَ إِلَىٰ أَمْرِ اللَّهِ ۚ فَإِنْ فَاءَتْ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا بِالْعَدْلِ وَأَقْسِطُوا ۖ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ | If two groups of the faithful fight one another, make peace between them. But if one party of them aggresses against the other, fight the one which aggresses until it returns to Allah’s ordinance. Then, if it returns, make peace between them fairly, and do justice. Indeed Allah loves the just. | Al-Hujuraat : 9

The problem is Gog and Magog have too much control, and it's not until from every high place, they are brought down, that there will be peace:

حَتَّىٰ إِذَا فُتِحَتْ يَأْجُوجُ وَمَأْجُوجُ وَهُمْ مِنْ كُلِّ حَدَبٍ يَنْسِلُونَ | until when Gog and Magog are opened up, and they from every high place come down/descend | Al-Anbiyaa : 96

Till that happens, the wars, are mostly based on manipulation.

In my view, Freemasons and other brother and sister groups, helped Jews form Israel as a part of a global plan and to keep Muslims in subjugation and keep them from uniting back to a Caliphate.

Well, we agree. To change the current state of affairs in the Middle East will take an act of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Insightful post. Thank you. It struck me how 'harmony' is such a better word over 'unity', in my view.

It is possible to have unity and harmony in spite of diversity.

“Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin. All the differences that appear are those of outward form and colour. This diversity of type is apparent throughout the whole of nature.

Behold a beautiful garden full of flowers, shrubs, and trees. Each flower has a different charm, a peculiar beauty, its own delicious perfume and beautiful colour. The trees too, how varied are they in size, in growth, in foliage—and what different fruits they bear! Yet all these flowers, shrubs and trees spring from the self-same earth, the same sun shines upon them and the same clouds give them rain.....

Thus should it be among the children of men! The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord.....

Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects, but it remains always and forever one.

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

Rather, search diligently for the truth and make all men your friends.”Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 51-53

From: Paris Talks, BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

 

[blü 2]

No, long after you and I are dead and buried.

Ah yes. As FitzGerald's Omar put it ─

When You and I behind the Veil are past,​

Oh, but the long, long while the World shall last,​

Which of our Coming and Departure heeds​

As the Sea’s self should heed a pebble-cast.​